Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[mbernert]

Bioware can learn a lot from James Rolf, the AVGN:

 

"What's the most important aspect about any game? Well, bein' able to ****in' play it."

 

-The Power Glove

 

lol...

[Justwalkaway]

How do I uprate this thread and can I do it like 1000 times?

[laserfloyd]

I notice this now but in one of the test builds the game seemed to play SO smooth for me and then for the next test phase went back to delayed feeling. I thought it was my hardware. Alas, some hardware upgrades and my FPS is better but I still feel the delayed response feeling. WoW got that right for sure. If it's a deep issue like the engine, then it might be a while for a fix but this is a good start to get it noticed.

[FrieAaron]

Oh, I read it, I'm just not impatient. And it really does hold relevance as every other successful MMORPG had mad issues at launch. You folks are going on like it's something new and horrible.

 

But this is a problem with the gameplay. Not the servers being full, crashing, etc. Those are the usual MMO problems.

[Olzmo]

Bioware can learn a lot from James Rolf, the AVGN:

 

"What's the most important aspect about any game? Well, bein' able to ****in' play it."

 

-The Power Glove

Actually, people CAN play the game. Have you tried installing the game?

[Xcore]

Oh, I read it, I'm just not impatient. And it really does hold relevance as every other successful MMORPG had mad issues at launch. You folks are going on like it's something new and horrible.

 

I am getting a frightening feel that Bioware may believe that this will all wash over with time and the positive elements of the game will be enough to hold subscriptions. Perhaps they think this thread just represents a tiny, completely irrelevant minority and that in the grand scheme of things all is well!

 

Perhaps their entire goal was to have about 800k subs and call it a day.

 

Without some communication, my speculation leads me to believe that maybe they don't really see what the fuss is about? That this is just regular post launch grumpyness and we'll forget about it next patch when the "Pazaak" or "Swoop Racing" or "interior ship decoration" is introduced.

 

Well, feel so powerless but out of our hands ultimately...

[Sinister-Sith]

But this is a problem with the gameplay. Not the servers being full, crashing, etc. Those are the usual MMO problems.

 

WoW had plenty of issues with the gameplay. Lag loot, falling through boats, etc etc etc. You name it, every successful MMORPG to date had it. xD

[Xcore]

Actually, people CAN play the game. Have you tried installing the game?

 

Why have you posted that? why are you watching and posting in this thread?

[Bob-ombaFett]

That is NOT good enough. They have to show they "care" and stop this robotic community communications. Here is all I ask, if a Dev reads this, all I want is you to post in this thread a DOT ".". That is all, is that too much to ask considering the amount of people involved with this thread? Does that take too much time?

 

Something vague in some meaningless Q&A is simply not good enough I am sorry to say.

 

There are problems with what you ask of BioWare to respond with. If all you ask for is a "period" post, then you will jump to the conclusion that they are mocking you, not to mention why post a period instead of a proper response back?

 

Considering that this is a business (as much as I don't like to admit it), everything they do has to be deliberate, and especially with their game being only 9 days out of official release, all eyes are on them. And by "eyes" I mean the majority of the public, not the gamers unfortunately.

 

Blizzard is a completely different beast, having their game up for 7 years gives them the flexibility of responding like how we would expect to if we were running the circus. They are established and have a foundation. SWTOR is still wobbling around on newborn legs, so to speak.

 

Give BioWare some time to figure out how to put into words that their problem really isn't a "problem" but rather a slight setback to better things to come. They have a lot of buffering (EA, lawyers, financiers, etc...) to go through before they can come out with details.

[Xcore]

WoW had plenty of issues with the gameplay. Lag loot, falling through boats, etc etc etc. You name it, every successful MMORPG to date had it. xD

 

I thought you wouldn't post here anymore?

[Khoranth]

WoW had plenty of issues with the gameplay. Lag loot, falling through boats, etc etc etc. You name it, every successful MMORPG to date had it. xD

 

I played ancient EQ over a decade ago, and when i pressed a button, my character did that i pressed, when i pressed.

 

Forget about WoW, every good video game has responsive controls, not just WoW.

 

Apparently mentioning WoW removes all reasoning from some people.

[Tarianz]

I'm glad you made this thread, but this is the only game I've ever played that felt delayed in combat. I hope this gets fixed with priority. Edited December 29, 2011 by Tarianz

[Arkimor]

Why have you posted that? why are you watching and posting in this thread?

 

He clearly hasn't PvP'd or done anything challenging in PvE.

[Forsbacka]

I'm glad you made this thread, but this is the only game I've ever played that felt delayed in combat. I hope this gets fixed with priority.

 

In 37 years i havent seen so bad ability delay in any game.

[Olzmo]

Why have you posted that? why are you watching and posting in this thread?

I do agree with your opening post. Bioware should definitely fix the sluggishness ASAP. However, surely you can't declare a game unplayable while 1.5M (?) players are actually playing it.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Olzmo

[Xcore]

There are problems with what you ask of BioWare to respond with. If all you ask for is a "period" post, then you will jump to the conclusion that they are mocking you, not to mention why post a period instead of a proper response back?

 

Considering that this is a business (as much as I don't like to admit it), everything they do has to be deliberate, and especially with their game being only 9 days out of official release, all eyes are on them. And by "eyes" I mean the majority of the public, not the gamers unfortunately.

 

Blizzard is a completely different beast, having their game up for 7 years gives them the flexibility of responding like how we would expect to if we were running the circus. They are established and have a foundation. SWTOR is still wobbling around on newborn legs, so to speak.

 

Give BioWare some time to figure out how to put into words that their problem really isn't a "problem" but rather a slight setback to better things to come. They have a lot of buffering (EA, lawyers, financiers, etc...) to go through before they can come out with details.

 

I don't disagree with anything you say here at all. However, i am sorry to say that I don't believe in Bioware's communication policy towards their playerbase. I am quite shocked at how they distance themselves from their own home (these forums) but rather prefer communication through weird 3rd party marketing and PR schemes...

 

It's very "de-humanizing", Bioware feels currently like that automated response menu when calling your internet Provider or something, no feeling of human connection/interaction.

[LogunOne]

Everyone please watch this video.

 

It shows BOTH examples of people experiencing no issues and examples of the delay that people are experiencing.

 

 

 

 

It is 15 minutes long, but VERY informative and VERY worthwhile to watch.

 

Thank you, Great Video, this gave me a much deeper understanding of the issue, I really think this has been over stated and blown out of proportion, yes there looks like some skill have a small delay but most clip there animation when needed…..report them as you find em …. Move along these anrn’t the Droids you’re looking for.

[Xcore]

I do agree with your opening post. Bioware should definitely fix the sluggishness ASAP. However, surely you can't declare a game unplayable while 1.5M (?) players are actually playing it.

 

I do not, but your first post seemed defensive about the entire issue. I apologize, I'm sure the person you quoted simply exaggerated as well obviously.

[Bob-ombaFett]

Are you serious? They are using warhammers game engine?

 

I would have never bought this game if i had known that. This is truly sick and i feel completely victimized if bioware just dumped warhammers game engine into swtor.

 

Can anyone confirm this? This may be grounds for a class action lawsuit against EA for a snatch and grab cash scam.

 

 

Here's the Wiki page for the Hero Engine: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeroEngine

 

No where on the page does it show that Warhammer Online was made with said engine.

 

 

 

The Gamebryo engine was used to make Warhammer Online.

 

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamebryo

[FrieAaron]

Thank you, Great Video, this gave me a much deeper understanding of the issue, I really think this has been over stated and blown out of proportion, yes there looks like some skill have a small delay but most clip there animation when needed…..report them as you find em …. Move along these anrn’t the Droids you’re looking for.

 

I agree it was an interesting video and thank you for doing it. That said, I think the most important thing said in the video is that it would help to keep gathering even more documentation on delays that feel broken or unresponsive. It's not enough to say "look, some combinations DO respond as you would expect."

[Dumpiduke]

I've been following this thread pretty readily, and I'd just like to thank the OP for putting this thread together. I've been through countless of what I call 'Post-WoW' MMO's and every single game (WAR, AoC, Aion, Rift) suffered from the same problems with combat fluidity. WoW did it near perfect and every game that followed was forced to live up to expectation or suffer the consequences. The game didn't meet your expectations?....back to WoW I guess.

 

I will admit, SWTOR is very close to getting it right and it's definitely the best of the bunch; however, there is no denying that the combat genuinely feels clunky and unresponsive at times. This is a core function that needs to be addressed or the game WILL bleed subscribers. I'm loving the game and there is definitely something special here, but I'm a competitive PvPer and it just needs to feel 'right'. Unfortunately, right now it does not. Please Bioware, don't let this issue fall through the cracks.

[fallenvirtues]

What I find funny is some people post and re genuinely trying to help and you jump down their throats or basically insult them some how by calling then fanbois or blah blah

 

I understand most of you have tried every solution and there isnt one...But no need to be nasty to those that are just trying to help

[hoilandms]

Thank you, Great Video, this gave me a much deeper understanding of the issue, I really think this has been over stated and blown out of proportion, yes there looks like some skill have a small delay but most clip there animation when needed…..report them as you find em …. Move along these anrn’t the Droids you’re looking for.

 

 

Another perfect way of seeing another problem regarding all of this 'animation delay' is via mounting.

 

 

Mount up, cast bar, animation, move after cast bar finishes, mounting is canceled because you didn't wait for the animation.

 

 

First part of the above video, seconds 20-30 show exactly how WoW got around this.

 

 

There are 2 issues regarding all of this.

 

Ability delay from animations not being cut and having to wait for them to finish.

 

Animation delay leading to a canceled ability because you move before the animation is finished.

[Jurisnoctis]

I have since pretty much stopped playing WoW since TOR's launch so I can't tell you the BEST objective experience, but...

 

I don't seem to have the problem the thread is talking about.

 

Perhaps it's because I played Marauder, perhaps when I am now rolling Sorcerer shall I know the woe of which you all speak.

 

Ofcourse I do see it with the mounting, but other than that not really.

 

I'm also going to test the lag between TOR and WoW.

 

If it's any piece of information, I have ability delay at 0.0.

 

If it exists I hope to hell they resolve the issue and 100% agree it's THE #1 priority.

 

It's a big reason I disliked RIFT, and let's not mention FFXIV shall we...

 

Maybe I've been distracted by the rest of the game. I DO do high lvl pvp and pve, so I'm not some person clicking every ability. I have everything keybound, etc, wish I had at least 1 more action bar because it's all full, or going to be.

 

So I'll see about this lag, and try things out. I'll bookmark this so I can reply. If I'm not experiencing it but others ARE experiencing... something is most definitely amiss.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Jurisnoctis

[fallenvirtues]

First off I want to say that I love this game, and want to see it become very successful over a long period of time. This post is referring to two video's referenced in the OP, and my take on them.

 

1st video: Baznasty (Thread 1, Page 87) -- WoW Example/Contrast MUST SEE!:

 

1st video opinion:

I have actually watched this video close to a dozen times because it is accurately describing and showing fluid, responsive controls. Not sure why I have watched it that many times, maybe because I'm subconciously trying to figure out how BW could make swtor just as good. What I think speaks to me the most, is that the game is strict to the cast time, and not so much on the animation.

 

Another perfect example of this is that when he stacks the instant cast on top of the 1.5 second cast. It is so fluid, precise... and Instant like it should be that both casts fire from the avatar at the same time, which is utlimately why I think swtor will have a difficult time resolving this. Will continue onto why after reviewing the second video I like to watch on this subject.

 

Lastly, during the combat example in this video.... the user knew how responsive the system was, and only clicked twice, once for each cast. He could COUNT on the system doing what he wanted it to do.

 

-----------------------------------

 

2nd video:

Samdbtto (Thread 1, Page 124) -- TOR Target Switch Responsiveness

 

2nd video opinion:

Again... I have watched this video over and over, trying to picture it working fluidly. In relation to the first video, I can picture the grenade shooting out of the avatar during the unload animation to make it as fluid as wow, but it would look gay as hell. I just can't seem to put my finger on HOW they can fix this with the current animation system.

 

Secondly, I feel for this guy playing, because I also find myself mashing every keybind after the gcd to make sure my next cast goes off. You can't have a smooth rotation with this game currently due to this delay.

 

Yes... I was a wow player, and when I casted vampiric touch, and casted devouring plague mid cast after the gcd, that f'ing devouring plague casted instantly after vampiric touch. In swtor, if I try to follow up with an instant cast after a casted ability, it is NOT instant. Which is why I ultimately bash my keybinds over and over again, because the combat system is so laggy and unresponsive. (not related to FPS lag or network lag, also as in Hey! That fat kid is lagging behind everyone else)

 

-----------------------------------

 

 

Final thoughts:

I have found myself giving into the BDF on this forum, and haven't been as constructive as I should be... I wanted to change that. I just don't know how BW can fix this with the current animations and there priority over user input.

 

 

Let me ask you guys this...Can there be any compromise with you all? If BW was able to fix the buggyness of the UI but still had damage corresponding with the animation and it worked perfectly with no problems with the execution i.e firing off as soon as you hit the button...Would that make you happy???

 

I personally like the animations in there...I realize that makes some instant casts not so instant...But I like the fact that you have to wait for the grenade to land on the mob before it explodes...The saber actually has to make contact before it inflicts damage instead of damage numbers poppin out before any type of lame animation follows...

 

I am not saying its definitely gonna be fixed/changed/stay the same nor am i offering a solution to fixing it...Non of that...Im simply asking if the animations stayed the same and their influence on how damage was distributed BUT there was no delay from when you hit the button and when the attack/ability started, would you be able to live with that and enjoy it???

Edited December 29, 2011 by fallenvirtues