Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[MaceTowani]

Kids aren't ON ADD they HAVE ADD it's a condition not a drug.

 

You're splitting hairs.

[Paganini]

In a perfect setup, I imagine it would ignore all input til near the end. Though I'm sure that would also draw ire.

 

 

What it's gonna come down to is, the only way the wow-fans will be happy is, animations are largely removed and most everything is just click=damage.

 

 

 

 

 

That is one of the most ridiculous straw man false choices I've ever seen.

 

We want crisp and responsive combat, there's no reason why that can't be done in an MMO with animations.

[Tadshackles]

I played ancient EQ and never dealt with unresponsive combat like SWTOR has. So stop comparing swtor to WoW, all good video games have responsive combat.

 

If ancient EQ had responsive control, no excuse for any new game nowadays not too as well.

 

I am beginning to think bioware just copied warhammer combat code to save money, since swtor unresponsive combat feels exactly the same as warhammer.

 

 

Save money?

 

They spent 138 million dollars to make this... 138 MILLION.

 

anyhow, after going to my JK and looking, there are some flagrant issues with particular combos. I DO NOT see it for every ability therefore it is not a system flaw. They need to fix SOME abilities.

 

Does it exist? Yes, clearly.

Is it intermittent? Yes... Which makes it WAY harder to solve. I trust in Bioware. Everything I have seen from them is AWESOME so I KNOW (hope) they address this soon.

[fallenvirtues]

How can you "spam" when there's a GLOBAL COOLDOWN on all abilities? If things actually functioned right in adherence to the GCD then combat would be more fluid and there would be no spam.

 

I can tell you what is ruining my PVP experiences though:

 

Trying to cap a gun in Alderaan Civil War but having it fail because the cast bar said it was finished yet the animation was still ongoing as I moved away.

 

I will say I have experienced a problem with spamming buttons...on my SW if I hit sweeping strike multiple times it will reset the attack before it hits occasionally...so Spamming a button will sometimes effect the attack

[kalibri]

BTW to all people bashing this thread, a BIG THANK YOU for the free bumps, meaning I don't have to post here regularly.

[Darth_Eclipses]

How can you "spam" when there's a GLOBAL COOLDOWN on all abilities? If things actually functioned right in adherence to the GCD then combat would be more fluid and there would be no spam.

 

I can tell you what is ruining my PVP experiences though:

 

Trying to cap a gun in Alderaan Civil War but having it fail because the cast bar said it was finished yet the animation was still ongoing as I moved away.

 

QFE.

 

Really wish people would stop trying to act like this was all in our heads - or even better, that it's working as intended as a deliberate design mechanic.

[Feskitt]

this has nothing to do with mashing or even lag and is very simple to test , roll a trooper and use mortar volley , the cast bar will be over but no third mortar yet , then you can move freely while the last lob of mortar will appear out of nowhere and do his damage while you are running around with a " portable mortar "

 

1. I can't speak for other classes, only BH Merc. However things were said in the thread that are b.s. regarding Merc abilities "not working"

 

2. There have been posts in this (last) thread where people were all-but admitting they were button-mashing, and pissed that it wasn't working

 

 

[Zironic]

Save money?

 

They spent 138 million dollars to make this... 138 MILLION.

 

anyhow, after going to my JK and looking, there are some flagrant issues with particular combos. I DO NOT see it for every ability therefore it is not a system flaw. They need to fix SOME abilities.

 

Does it exist? Yes, clearly.

Is it intermittent? Yes... Which makes it WAY harder to solve. I trust in Bioware. Everything I have seen from them is AWESOME so I KNOW (hope) they address this soon.

 

Afaik, the vast majority of that money went into the Voice Acting, not so much the game engine.

[Khoranth]

Do you know what spamming is or do I have to explain it to you?

 

Spamming is bad.

 

Chaining Attacks Properly (you know, when the animation is actually finished and you're not trying to rapidly press the button over and over like a kid on ADD) is good.

 

what part of being CC'd didn't you understand? Have you ever done a warzone?

 

again, we are in a different universe, me thinks you are in a solo questing, and doing ez group stuff type game.

[Nafre]

Does nobody remember vanilla WoW and FAR more importantly early TBC... OMG what a mess! It was literally unplayable for many people for whole patches!

 

WoW has one major advantage over every other game... It has 7+ years of fixing fark-ups under its belt to make it look now like a beautiful thing...

 

Comparing this to WoW is like comparing a 13 year old middle school basketball phenom to Kobe Bryant, of course the kid isn't polished on that level yet but geez let the coaches train him a bit and we'll see.

 

WoW has had 7 years and something like 50+ content patches (not just major raid content patches) to tweak a little here and little there to get it just right. Im now flashing back to the AQ gate opening and worse yet the quest grind to get there... UGH...

 

Give them at least one major content patch before you all start screaming LOLHAMMER 2.0!!!!

 

This game in one week has already destroyed all other MMOs EVER, including WoW. Compare this to patch 1.01 WoW not 4.3 is all im saying.

 

Completely and entirely untrue. Infact I'm always baffled by the people I have heard make this claim. I played WoW in closed beta and I'll admit RELEASE wise it was an absolute disaster. The servers were never up, huge bugs prevented people from playing, constant maintenance etc... I'll give you that entirely. However the game itself, despite them just not predicting what a population of this magnitude would do to their servers, was completely smooth. The game had the same slick UI, responsiveness, quick character animations and fluid gameplay that it does today. You can't debate that with me I was there.

 

Either a game is released with good gameplay or it isn't. Either a game is fluid and responsive or it never will be. This is one of those things that you can't improve upon to a degree enough to matter once a game has already been released. This is why this game will be more successful than Rift because of the hype it had, but will suffer the same fate as Rift.

[ShadowMasterRP]

Someone needs to link that mounting video.

 

I think it was the first clip on YouTube to showcase this issue.

 

The guy mounts on a speeder, takes off instantly when the progress bar finishes AND the speeder appears... only to get dismounted instantly and have the speeder vanish. He then repeats that several times in a row to press the point.

[fallenvirtues]

BTW to all people bashing this thread, a BIG THANK YOU for the free bumps, meaning I don't have to post here regularly.

 

I am not bashing...Im just reiterating that the problem is with the UI and its response time...Its obviously bugged for a lot of you and I occasionally experience it but far and few in between but not even remotely close to the level most of you seem to be experiencing it...

 

I am defending the combat system because I like it and how they incorporated the animations...It just needs to be fixed so that attacks instantly happen as soon as you press the button and animations should end accordingly with the GCD

 

With instant attacks and etc, I like the fact that the damage doesnt happen until your saber/blaster bolt actually hits the target

[SnakeBites]

I pretty much read the whole thread, it took awhile.

I just laughed when i see people respond with:

"It's your GPU" <-- One of my favourites.

"Stop mashing the buttons"

"Upgrade your PC"

"You are lagging"

 

So many people who think they know what they're talking about when infact they're completely clueless.

 

Nice write up OP. I'm glad alot of other people can experience this glaring issue & i hope it get's sorted. Fast.

Edited December 28, 2011 by SnakeBites

[AkAseo]

Anyone who says this is not an issue and adapt to it should realise that it detracts from a fluid gameplay experience, If I start to cast something then quickly realise my opponent is doing something else and react to it, are you honestly saying that the game was designed to NOT ALLOW me to react???? If this is the case then go the whole hog and give us Dragon Age turn based combat.

 

Seriously, not being able to properly chain or SWITCH abilities instantly or at least quickly is NOT how this is meant to play I am almost sure of it and if it is then it aint for me.

[Khoranth]

Personally I'm tending to agree here very much. SWTOR is not WOW and I play a sith jugganaut, Merc, Sniper and just starting a sith assassin or scorcerer and I can say I have not noticed any issues with lack of responsiveness within how this game is intended to work. I pvp daily and same goes for that to.

 

I think ppl are to used to WoW and expect this game to be the same or "it should" be the same. Well no it should not, I have seen the vids of what ppl are supposedly saying is the issue and its not a bug its how the game works. It had a small delay between action and casting and its not "action" delay its an action "Que" a big difference.

 

SWG used a long action que by default, you could que 4 abilities or more in the order you wanted them to go off. SWTOR does not have such a long que but the principle is similar.

 

With this system you CANNOT mash buttons its counter productive and you end up doing more harm than good, thats what WoW encourages and supports its not the best system at all but its what a lot of ppl are used to.

 

What SWTOR requires is a little more awareness and thought behind what buttons you press but results can be more effective if you do.

 

You can even lower or raise this delay in the preferences to suite.

 

It does take a little getting used to if you have not seen it before or have only played WoW or simmilar style interfaced games.

 

Personally I am used to it and quite like it, I have no lag and no graphics delay either but at the end of the day, its not a bug. Its a feature, one you may not like but its still not a bug

 

There could be issues with the server side and how it responds to commands especially since a lot of prerelease servers are FULL but if it is thats a seperate issue entirely.

 

Sorry, but WoW is not the only video game with responsive combat.

 

So you are saying since WoW has responsive combat, SWTOR should have laggy unresponsive combat, so it won't be like WoW.

 

GOOD VIDEO GAMES HAVE RESPONSIVE COMBAT.

 

Ancient EQ had responsive combat a decade ago, so youre whole, stop comparing swtor to WoW argument is debunked.

 

We are comparing swtor combat to basically all good video games with responsive combat, not just wow

[HoneyBoy]

This is BW's way of solving it by going with a different mechanic altogether. Instead of complaining on the forums for hours on end, just take the advice of someone who DOESN'T have your problem.

 

Don't button mash.

 

Do your attack ONLY AFTER the animation to ensure a smooth transition.

 

Know that your attacks CAN get interrupted if you cast them while getting pummeled.

 

I put the parts I feel most prudent in bold and italics.

 

So basically what you're saying is, "I don't have your problem, but here is my way of avoiding the problem we both acknowledge exists since we are both in agreement that waiting for animations are the reason why the combat isn't as fluid as the GCD/Cast bars allow you to believe".

 

Lol?

 

I don't think you understand, certain hardmode encounters in this game and in PvP require clutch healing or fast interrupts. Why does my UI give me visual acknowledgement that it's ok to use an ability if I actually can't because I'm waiting for another animation to finish?

[kalibri]

I am not bashing...Im just reiterating that the problem is with the UI and its response time...Its obviously bugged for a lot of you and I occasionally experience it but far and few in between but not even remotely close to the level most of you seem to be experiencing it...

 

I am defending the combat system because I like it and how they incorporated the animations...It just needs to be fixed so that attacks instantly happen as soon as you press the button and animations should end accordingly with the GCD

 

With instant attacks and etc, I like the fact that the damage doesnt happen until your saber/blaster bolt actually hits the target

 

I didn't read your reply, but thank you for the bump good Sir.

[Nissin]

Someone needs to link that mounting video.

 

I think it was the first clip on YouTube to showcase this issue.

 

The guy mounts on a speeder, takes off instantly when the progress bar finishes AND the speeder appears... only to get dismounted instantly and have the speeder vanish. He then repeats that several times in a row to press the point.

 

This is perfect example

[Darth_Eclipses]

This is BW's way of solving it by going with a different mechanic altogether. Instead of complaining on the forums for hours on end, just take the advice of someone who DOESN'T have your problem.

 

Don't button mash.

 

Do your attack ONLY AFTER the animation to ensure a smooth transition.

 

Know that your attacks CAN get interrupted if you cast them while getting pummeled.

 

Alright, you've fully proven yourself to be a BW apologist, someone who will make excuses and reasons for every flaw that this game has.

 

It isn't about patience in high level PvE or competitive PvP - it's about us needing our abilities to work when we press them, the animations to finish with the cast timers - and to remove the bugs that are in the combat system itself.

 

Doing attacks AFTER the animations (vs AFTER the cast timer) adds up to literal seconds lost, when there is a palpable .5 second invisible animation timer on many abilities. Those seconds adds up quickly to extra heals, extra utility, extra dps that could and very well SHOULD be going out in an encounter but isn't because of this faulty design.

 

Button mashing is an apologist excuse to this problem, even IF it is root of this problem, their design mechanic is STILL a huge fail - you cannot ask customers to politely press ONCE in intensive combat or else it will BREAK your combat system.

 

Can you understand that? Yes? No?

Edited December 28, 2011 by Darth_Eclipses

[MaceTowani]

what part of being CC'd didn't you understand? Have you ever done a warzone?

 

again, we are in a different universe, me thinks you are in a solo questing, and doing ez group stuff type game.

 

Yes I've done a warzone, quite a few in fact, though I am by no means a hardcore PvPer and could really care less about it. It's something that passes the time and gives easy XP when you need it.

 

Again, why dont you take the advice of someone who DOESN'T have the problem? Why is that so hard for you to do?

[fallenvirtues]

Someone needs to link that mounting video.

 

I think it was the first clip on YouTube to showcase this issue.

 

The guy mounts on a speeder, takes off instantly when the progress bar finishes AND the speeder appears... only to get dismounted instantly and have the speeder vanish. He then repeats that several times in a row to press the point.

 

And thats exactly what leads me to believe its bugged so that animations and casting bars are not synced properly and it CAN be fixed..Its not cause the combat system itself is bad...It just needs to be fixed

[Cragen]

The animation responsiveness and the lack of exaggeration in the animation so that you can easily tell what a player used just by the look of the animation is what is holding back the game.

 

I really hope that Bioware takes this feedback to heart and focus their energy on improving it as much as they can for the first major patch.

 

Combat is the absolute core of any MMO and if it isn't fluid it will feel wrong no matter what you do. You can polish the other parts of the game as much you like, but in the end if it is PvE or PvP the game revolves around combat and it will only be as good as the core it is built upon.

[Paganini]

 

Again, why dont you take the advice of someone who DOESN'T have the problem? Why is that so hard for you to do?

 

 

Because he does have this problem. He just isn't aware of it.

[HoneyBoy]

Yes I've done a warzone, quite a few in fact, though I am by no means a hardcore PvPer and could really care less about it. It's something that passes the time and gives easy XP when you need it.

 

Again, why dont you take the advice of someone who DOESN'T have the problem? Why is that so hard for you to do?

 

You do have the problem though, you admitted it yourself by posting all the abilities that transition smoothly and the ones that don't. They should all transition smoothly in adherence to the Global Cooldown.

[Feskitt]

Spam tracer missile on a target and report back here you can even hear the spell start to cast then it stutters and starts again once first animation finishes.

You talking about the sound effects of the mechanics of the device? (jetpack, though I believe the animation is switched w/ Fusion missile, so maybe it's really supposed to be the mechanical sounds of the wrist-launcher)

 

 

I spam it. No problem.

 

 

Seriously, WHAT ARE YOU PEOPLE DOING? How in the hell are you messing it up? If you really need to rapid-fire attacks, there's a queue so you can enter the command for the next attack while the last one is almost finished; you don't have to wait for the animation to completely end.

 

 

yeesh