Ok I think... so he's going to make logical arguments and prove this wrong. I prepare myself. Errrr...ok? So your reasoning against people wishing this game would be more like WoW is that the developers claimed they did not want this game to be more like WoW. Well have fun with that fail design then? Firstly you know damn well this game is exactly like WoW and tried to copy WoW. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, that's an intelligent thing. Don't buy into developers saying they aren't trying to design this game after the most successful MMO of all time. Of *COURSE* they are. They would be stupid not to. What the developer meant by saying they aren't going to be like WoW is that they are going for more story and a different bioware twist on it, not that they aren't going to copy its mechanics. LFG system? Good pvp queues? End game content? customizable UI? Combat with no action delays? Graphics that don't lag you? They wanted every single one of these things to be in game by release that much I promise you. You are completely ignoring the concept of preference. If someone one day decided he was going to start designing cars with square wheels would you just be like: don't scream that all the other car companies are doing it a different way, it's his choice and he chose to do so! No... They chose to make a design decision you're correct, and we are allowed to say it doesn't suit our preference. Why is it okay for them to choose to design a car with square wheels and not okay for us to tell them thats a really dumb idea and circle wheels were perfectly fine. I bolded and underlined that last part because that is the part of your statements I find the most untrue. This game should have been a carbon copy of WoW. If it did so it would have been the next mmo, hands down. You aren't considering **TIMING**. This games release came at a time when even the people who love WoW are completely sick to death of it. Don't mistake being sick of WoW for being sick of the format of WoW though. I'm sick of orgrimmar, I'm sick of orcs, I'm sick of the heroics I've run 30,000 times, I'm sick of the same classes, I'm sick of the same races, I'm sick of the same settings. I am however *NOT* sick of convenient LFG systems, a slick and responsive and customizable UI, a fluid combat system, graphics that are crazy optimized and can run on any system, fun engaging raid mechanics, etc etc. If this game had copied WoW with all the things in my list of the things I'm not sick of, while changing all the things I was sick of....this game would have toppled WoW completely. Instead they focused all their money into things true long-term mmo players don't care about such as voice overs, story, and music. Don't get me wrong, MMO players love voice acting, they love story, and they love music....but not more than they love game mechanics that are what you want when you're actually playing.

You can't possibly believe that. Were you around playing MMOs before world of warcraft? If you won't define World of Warcraft as innovative or genre changing then you simply do not know how to use the word correctly. Before WoW we were all sitting around playing games like Everquest or Dark Age of Camelot or Asheron's Call....The leap from EQ to WoW is like the leap from Doom to Halo. They streamlined EVERYTHING. It was like going from a station wagon to a corvette. You don't need to always redesign everything to be innovative. Sometimes innovation is taking the old design and making it efficient beyond measure. The ultimate testament to how innovative and genre changing WoW was is look at how the gaming community has been changed by it. MMOs before WoW were only played by nerds and were honestly not super popular. I'm not knocking as I am one of those nerds, I'm just saying. Now MMOs are just as big of a gaming market as console games because they ARE played by console gamers. It wasn't a coincidence, WoW did this. Blizzard changed everything with how smooth, responsive, and fun their game was. Hate the game, but give credit to its place on the wall of fame.

the reason this process happens over and over is because WoW was an amazing game and we're all bored with it cause we played it forever so we want a new MMO but all the new MMOs that come out are horrible

I had enough today. I really thought I could overlook all the problems in this game with combat and fluid feel but I can't. I feel like I'm spending more energy in this game trying not to hate it than anything else. I wanted this to be a good MMO so bad it was insane but its just an extremely poor mmo. I just can't play it anymore. This game represents the pinnacle of everything that is wrong today with MMO developing. Unlimited funds and it was all put into story and voice acting which now at 50 becomes nothing but a hinderance. Where as the graphics were left aesthetically bland (I don't care what anyone says the graphics in this game are terrible, I even prefer WoW graphics over these and I have them on max settings), and the gameplay, pvp, and features such as LFG were left completely underdeveloped and bad. We as MMO players demand good responsive gameplay, cool new battlegrounds, ARTISTICALLY aesthetically pleasing graphics, and features such as LFG systems to get together to do stuff at the level cap. Thats all we want... Everyone but blizzard has failed us... and blizzard only got 2 out of 4 of those right out of release.

I haven't been back to this thread in a while but I felt I had to come here to update you guys on some opinions I've been forming while testing these issues. Firstly let me lay down my disclaimer and say that I don't believe this to be an issue with OUR computers either FPS or latency... HOWEVER: It is a matter of client server connection. There are some abilities that feel sluggish in general in the way the animations perform, but this is something you can get past. The real problem though is when you begin to use cast bar abilities, either channeled or just activation timed ones. This is when it becomes extremely apparent to me that the problem is lag. Let me lay down my argument for this being lag based: 1.) Most instant abilities go off fairly decently MOST of the time. Sometimes though you get odd delays as if you're playing with 500ms. I check my ms and its between 60 and 90 most of the time. I dismiss this as animation or bad design but IT FEELS LIKE LAG. 2.) off the global cooldown abilities sometimes "eat" other abilities. Meaning if you use a GCD ability nearly at the same time you use a non-GCD ability sometimes the damaging non-GCD ability won't fire properly. This is an odd one, but again the fact this happens sometimes and not others points directly to server-client communication. 3.) Cast time abilities. Horrendous. Channeled abilities, Horrendous. This is the part of the issue I absolutely can't overlook. Cast time abilities don't interrupt instantly when moving, or think you're still moving when you're not. They are extremely difficult to chain cast without getting some sort of weird overlap bug that either makes your cast bar disappear or interrupts your cast. Channeling has about a .5 second delay to begin and even then the first tick of channel doesn't hit until about 50% of the way through the channel time. Take the operative healer diagnostic scan ability for example. For some reason this is one of the worst abilities for this issue. This ability is a channeled heal and ticks a total of 3 times. I press diagnostic scan, there is about a .4 second delay, the channel bar shows and begins, I get my first heal tick at about 50% way through the bar, 2nd tick about .5 seconds before the bar ends, and third and final tick about 1 second AFTER THE BAR ENDS. I know my MS is at around 75 but this completely and utterly feels like lag to me. 4.) I notice a difference in how effective my channeled abilities are and how bad this problem is when my MS display varies. When I'm in a flashpoint and not near anyone and my MS is hovering around 60 my cast bars are tons better. When I'm pvping or in fleet and my MS might reach 120 or so my channeling is terrible. It's like the display says 100 ms which isn't terrible, but its behaving like 500ms. So the TLDR I'm getting at here is while its important to stress that the issue is not our computers or internet lagging, the issue is indeed caused by server lag or client-server communcation. I once thought this whole issue was animation related or design related but now I'm completely convinced this is a connection issue.

See you only have one half to the puzzle. WoW for sure had the worst launch ever. Bugs galore and server crashes and maintenance its was horrible. However 2 things: Number one this launch at the time was completely unprecedented. They just simply were not ready for something of this magnitude. ToR had the data and general idea of how something like this might go, they instanced off planets and did a steady pre-play release etc with this knowledge. I'm not saying this excuses WoW entirely, I'm just saying thats a pretty solid excuse. The main piece you're missing though is WoW simply had better gameplay on release. As much as people claim WoW grew into the game it is today they are referring to features and content. WoW had zero content and zero features on release...but the gameplay, the UI, the combat, were all as crisp and fluid and amazingly reactive as they are today. This games UI is slightly cleaner but the combat and delays and UI bugs and action press bugs are HORRENDOUS. I'd rather have a horrible release but an amazing and responsive game than a great release and this games terrible combat feel.

Completely and entirely untrue. Infact I'm always baffled by the people I have heard make this claim. I played WoW in closed beta and I'll admit RELEASE wise it was an absolute disaster. The servers were never up, huge bugs prevented people from playing, constant maintenance etc... I'll give you that entirely. However the game itself, despite them just not predicting what a population of this magnitude would do to their servers, was completely smooth. The game had the same slick UI, responsiveness, quick character animations and fluid gameplay that it does today. You can't debate that with me I was there. Either a game is released with good gameplay or it isn't. Either a game is fluid and responsive or it never will be. This is one of those things that you can't improve upon to a degree enough to matter once a game has already been released. This is why this game will be more successful than Rift because of the hype it had, but will suffer the same fate as Rift.

Players like the author of this thread are the reason new MMOs can't be criticized without that player being attacked and ridiculed. The concept is so simple I really don't understand why you can't wrap your head around it. THINK OF ANY OTHER INVENTION OR PROGRESS AND FOLLOW ITS COMPETITORS. Cars are the perfect example. Do you think car companies would survive if they didn't steal the best features of each others cars and adapt them into their own designs? When the general public loves something about a car and that car is successful other car companies take that into consideration. It isn't because they're lame and they wanna cheat, and it doesn't make their product bad... on the contrary it gives the people what they want in a car. We don't want this game to be exactly like WoW. If it were exactly like WoW I wouldn't play it. I wouldn't mind driving a lamborghini instead of a corvette, but I'd sure be confused if I jumped in the lamborghini and it didn't have a rear view mirror, a stereo, or a passenger seat.

Had to post again to put a rating up. This won't be changed it is an issue far too deep within the games mechanics. I just like this thread because it lets bioware, and every mmo that has come out since WoW know why they have failed to hold our attention. To those of you who keep saying we need to "go back to wow" or we're not objective because we love WoW so much.... consider this: I no longer play WoW and will never go back. What have I possibly got to gain from refusing to play this game and talking down this game? Do you have any idea how bad I wanted this game to be good? I preordered this game months ago and since then did nothing but sit on these forums and lurk. I read every single post, I watched every leaked video, I even made my computers wallpaper SWTOR. I PRAY EVERY DAY FOR THE LOVE OF GOD THAT A NEW MMO COMES OUT THAT IS BETTER THAN WOW. Instead I'm forced to deal with 2-3 months of playing a game like this where developers put all their resources in the wrong places and I can't continue to play it because the basic concepts are fundamentally flawed. Before I leave I do want to pose a question to you all though that I thought about today. Is it possible that MMOs have evolved so far that its impossible to make another good one? Let me explain that statement. When WoW came out it was just as responsive and slick UI and combat wise as it is today. However WoW had almost zero features and content. The game was an absolute mess. There was nearly nothing to do at the level cap at all, there were no battlegrounds, there was no LFG system or queue, the talents in game were rough and terrible, the maps weren't detailed or ingame, the chat and channels barely worked, there was no Quest Helper or marked quest objectives, I could go on but you get the idea...it was basically just the framework of a great game. WoW over a long period of time added all the features that are now common in any new MMOs today. Now flash forward to current day. If any new MMO is released it now *HAS* to have a LFG system, a detailed map system, a quest tracking system, working and detailed chats, Battlegrounds, balanced talents and classes, decent endgame content, etc. If it doesn't have all or 3/4 of this list nobody would bother playing it. Developers are now forced to spread their resources across an insanely large distance. What WoW developed over a looooong period of time, they now have to have on release... AND they have to make combat and UI responsive. When WoW focused on aesthetics and smooth gameplay for their release because none of these now common features existed, games like SWTOR have to build all these years of work overnight. As I said, MMOs have evolved to the point they require so much work they are destroying themselves.

I found this thread this morning and it was like the mothership was calling me home. I bought this game and after playing it for a week I told all my friends waiting to buy it don't bother it will just be another Rift. Someone hit the nail on the head when they said it wasn't just a SWTOR issue, it was an issue with all mmos outside world of warcraft. I know that SOUNDS biased like I'm a fanboy, but I'm extremely objective. I've been playing MMOs for 15 years...I've played every MMO on the market. The OP wasn't kidding when he said this isn't just *AN* issue this is *THE* issue. This should be the ONLY thing game developers should be worried about. Everything comes second to a responsive and fluid UI and combat system. Building amazing story and music and immersive feel like SWTOR did is great, but it's like building a luxury suite on a boat that has a cracked hull. We're all trying to word and show the same thing unsuccessfully. It really is almost unexplainable what feels sluggish about this game. I push my fire blaster button and my character has to raise his blaster, take aim, fire, then i see the white numbers a second after that. There is an inherent delay in everything I do even in just a single ability. Forget trying to chain together 3 abilities in a row its so buggy and unresponsive you feel like the UI and your character are enemies and you're trying to punch in codes to hack them. As for as the pvp goes I'll take it a step further and go a little bit off topic about what someone said earlier. He said, and I'm paraphrasing, In WoW pvp I always knew what was going on in a battle, in this game it's a disaster and chaos. I'll tell you why that is. Not only is the game unresponsive which adds to the chaos, but animations and colors weren't designed to be distinctive to their function. In WoW if a frost mage is casting a frostbolt at you, their hands are glowing blue and you know its coming. If a healer is sitting in the corner healing his hands not only are glowing white or green, the person he is healing is getting very visible flashes of white or green on them, and an audible sound effect for that matter. If a rogue vanishes a puff of smoke appears, if a pvp trinket is popped a swirl goes above their head, if a mage is channeling arcane missiles at you, you know it... it isn't tiny hard visible pebbles. PVP needs to be visible and distinct so your mind can process a hundred things happening at once. No game except WoW has gotten this correct either. Hate WoW till the ends of the earth and burn anyone who praises it at the stake, but at the end of the day it will still just be a better designed game AT THE CORE and at everything that matters.

While I'm here....flamethrower is nice for single 2-3 targets etc, but are you guys using flame thrower single target as a high priority or a priority at all? Btw unload DEFINITELY does more damage than flame thrower that I am sure of.

Yeah honestly it seems odd that I hear that most BH tanks aren't using this and some have even removed it from their bars. I was doing some testing earlier and it seems to actually be our 2nd highest damage ability we have. It channels for 3 seconds and in that 3 seconds typically does low end 800 damage or high end like 1300 damage (I'm lvl 40). Figuring 3 seconds = 2 other abilities like for example flame burst...it clearly outdamages that. Obviously you have to consider it can be interrupted when meleed so you wanna be careful when you use it. On a boss fight I think would be THE time to use it.... I'd even go as far to say that on a boss fight unload should be your 2nd priority right below rocket punch. Rail shot definitely would contend but if anything they would be even.

Nah I entirely agree. We look very silly with just a blaster in one hand and nothing in the other. I realize with all our gadgets it somewhat makes sense but I feel very weak at times pointing that tiny blaster at things....it just seems....off. Maybe I'm too used to tanking with shields in other mmos but i just feel naked

interesting. Yeah I slowly phased missile shot off my quickslot figuring it shouldn't be used anymore but I just wasn't sure about unload. during its channel duration i see like 100 100 177 77 188 etc...like i swear it does a very high amount of damage in total, I'm still just not sure if I should remove it off my bar

I'm curious...do you bh tanks use unload still? Rocket punch is clearly out best move but I would swear unload is like our 2nd in terms of single target damage...the number spam is so fast its hard to tell but it seems like alot