"We wanted more instant gratification : kill, get treasure, repeat."

[Vaestmannaeyjar]

The easy mode demanding people are the ones that give the most money to bioware - I don't like it, but that's how it is.

[kineticdamage]

1) You are quoting out of context. That quote had nothing whatsoever to do with actual difficulty levels, and frankly, the OP of the quote was a proponent of exactly the kind of game SW:TOR is (and most level based quest games are).

 

2) By far the larger part of the population LEFT SWG because the quest system, the from that point almost mandatory combat and the levels the CU/NGE introduced were unenjoyable, not because the quests were too hard or the lootz not phat enough. Loot drops actually increased to an annoying level.

 

3) The fact you find missions easy does not mean other people/classes/builds have the same experience. I know experienced gamers who can't finish their class missions even at +4 because they're too hard. Which would seem to indicated not everything is as clearcut as you seem to think.

 

4) You're 30. You do know stuff starts ramping up steeply in difficulty from there, right?

 

5) Casual and less experienced players have a right to enjoy their content too.

 

1) There is no context to respect with this quote, as I'm not attacking its author at all. I'm just using it to illustrate what a game designer would say if he wanted a game to be easy-mode, and why.

 

2) I'm pretty sure you'll have a lot of SWG vets contradicting you with this one, but for my part I'll just say that you're messing "difficulty" with "accomplishment" and "challenge". Once again, we're not debating directly about difficulty here. Difficulty is one way or another to make things challenging. But there are others, like timing precision, socialisation, dedication, etc.

 

3) I never said the game was easy. I just made a request for Bioware.

 

4) That's good news

 

5) They have for sure, but what right they don't have is to force devs to alienate challenge lovers. Anyway never did I asked for casuals and less experienced people to stop being themselves. Once again, I just asked for Bioware not to fall into 90% easy-mode like other MMOs had, just for the sake of gathering most possible subs.

 

And yes, it's all about a business trying to gather most possible subs, but if we start going that route, why don't we also add to MMOs the ability to make coffee, read the local news or order pizzas at home ? (yeah, I know WoW tried this one, lol)

Edited December 28, 2011 by kineticdamage

[VanorDM]

The easy mode demanding people are the ones that give the most money to bioware - I don't like it, but that's how it is.

 

IMO, CoH had the best balance of any MMO out there when I played it. I quit playing shortly before the Architect system went in, which as I understand it completely changed how the game played.

 

But in CoH you had plenty of casual player, solo type content. Could easily level to max solo, it was also one of the first games to have this... CoH was released about 6 months before WoW was.

 

CoH also offered a number of harder group type content. Trials, task forces, and Hazard zones which in TOR terms would be Flashpoints/Ops and Heroics. This gave people who liked harder group content something to do, and were typically quite popular.

 

Interestingly enough, until the Invention System was put in, there was no real reward offered for doing the Trials and TF's, other then a badge.

 

It's my hope that TOR finds this type of balance, lots of stuff for casual/solo but enough hard/group stuff for those who like it.

 

But it's important to remember that the raider types are a very small minority, and as such the really hardcore raids are often a huge waste of resources when you consider how many people actually take part in that type of content.

[kineticdamage]

IMO, CoH had the best balance of any MMO out there when I played it. I quit playing shortly before the Architect system went in, which as I understand it completely changed how the game played.

 

But in CoH you had plenty of casual player, solo type content. Could easily level to max solo, it was also one of the first games to have this... CoH was released about 6 months before WoW was.

 

CoH also offered a number of harder group type content. Trials, task forces, and Hazard zones which in TOR terms would be Flashpoints/Ops and Heroics. This gave people who liked harder group content something to do, and were typically quite popular.

 

Interestingly enough, until the Invention System was put in, there was no real reward offered for doing the Trials and TF's, other then a badge.

 

It's my hope that TOR finds this type of balance, lots of stuff for casual/solo but enough hard/group stuff for those who like it.

 

But it's important to remember that the raider types are a very small minority, and as such the really hardcore raids are often a huge waste of resources when you consider how many people actually take part in that type of content.

 

I admit the Nightmare mode in swtor lights me up. It's above Hard mode, so deliberately creating an additional difficulty layer is a proof that Bioware does value challenge more than the average nowadays MMO maker.

 

Unless Nightmare Mode is the same as Hard mode in other MMOs, which would make SWTOR Hard Mode the Regular Mode, and Regular the Baby mode. But I hope they really stick to the modes name's meaning.

In Doom for example, we all know what Nightmare mode means...

[Light_Valkyrie]

no i dont understand anything - still nothing explained.

 

where is the 'challenge' in watching a comedy show. or, going to a rock concert.

 

there was no such 'challenge' fixation in games back 10 years ago. or until wow made it something 'mandatory'. games were ENTERTAINMENT, and came in any form that would entertain the player.

 

now, all of some of you speak about is 'challenge'.

 

challenge is NOT entertainment.

 

 

 

quite.

 

and hence the problem with hardcore gaming minority (for some reason they are hardcore by mashing buttons and running repeated raids for 0.1% chance item drops) is that they define entertainment to be 'challenge'.

 

noone else attempts to redefine entire definition of 'entertainment' in games to be 'challenge'. not casuals, not pvpers, not social types - noone. but, hardcore progressive gamers.

 

i can understand if they say THEY like a challenge. and even if their understanding of 'entertainment' is that, i can understand that too - even if it comes up very very absurd to my eyes.

 

but, i cannot understand or rationalize this group redefining ENTERTAINMENT in gaming as 'challenge'.

 

if you look at the posts of 5 different people before this particular post, you will notice that almost all of them are doing this.

 

some even going further to entirely define the concept of 'computer games' as 'challenge'.

 

see my point ?

 

basically these people are trying to dress THEIR own understanding of what constitutes 'fun' in a computer game, to EVERYONE, and demand the entire game to be designed based on their own entertainment biases.

 

 

 

 

you could max out a character in the fraction of today's games, and you could reequip yourself in 5 minutes - with what - items conjured out of thin air ?

 

or, did the items you lost when you died has gone away forever.

 

 

yeah they did. just like how it happens in eve online - which keeps casual gamers entirely out of the game.

 

that is a form of hardcore.

 

what you propose, ie 'effort requiring gear progression by mashing buttons in repeated dungeon runs for 0.1% chance item drops' is NOT something hardcore. but, because of wow and its vocal minority, it has come to being taken as something as such.

 

 

We get it you like to play a game and have fun by not having anything hard or unfair thrown at you. Thanks.

[Darka]

The biggest problem about challenge is

One mans challenge is another mans faceroll

Its so hard to balance right

[kineticdamage]

The biggest problem about challenge is

One mans challenge is another mans faceroll

Its so hard to balance right

 

Several difficulty modes seem to be part of the solution

[krinaman]

Several difficulty modes seem to be part of the solution

 

The problem with that is the people who do the harder version always demand better gear. This leads to a gear gap between the difficulty levels making balancing open world content extremly difficult.

[Nerdwing]

The issue as I see it is that making something "EZ Mode" apparently could mean something as small as fixing bugs in an encounter to adding new UI elements or as extreme as blatant nerfs to content. Nobody can agree on what exactly qualifies. Rather than ask "Could this addition drive off more people than it could attract/maintain?", folks often seem to just fear change totally lest things become too "easy".

[kineticdamage]

The problem with that is the people who do the harder version always demand better gear. This leads to a gear gap between the difficulty levels making balancing open world content extremly difficult.

 

I see what you mean, and you got a very valid point. One way to resolve this would be to put different levels of difficulty in world content too. Should not be very resource consuming for Bioware, as it could just be more HP, or more monsters to kill.

 

Or they could just use their bonus mission mechanics like in space missions, so that only the best geared (therefore the ones who completed stuff on Nightmare) players could be able to complete those bonus missions.

 

It's like that in space, when you got your lvl 1 ship, some bonus missions are nearly uncompleteable, unless you try and try again, putting a lot of dedication and precision into destroying absolutely everything. I felt it very rewarding when I first destroyed the lower base of the Cartel Listening Station while I was with my lvl 1 shots. It took me 6 successive tries, and made me want to go back at it again and again until I'd destroy the thing.

 

It wasn't even specified to be a bonus mission ("Cripple enemy communication" bonus objective), it just pops up as a completed bonus when you happen to destroy it. Was very gratifying

 

So Nightmare doers could benefit of such gratification, secret bonus missions only doable with Nightmare gear.

 

this would also resolve this other problem you mentionned, Nerdwing :

 

Rather than ask "Could this addition drive off more people than it could attract/maintain?", folks often seem to just fear change totally lest things become too "easy".

 

Hidden Bonus missions is an incredibly clever mechanic for a MMO. Bioware got something golden to exploit with this.

Edited December 29, 2011 by kineticdamage

[Kauhu]

I love a challenge and I'm definitely classed among the more casual players. One of the worst changes they made to LotrO was dumbing it down, most of us enjoy a challenge and having to think a bit.

 

Please do not change the level of difficulty. I think it's pretty much spot on right now.

 

Release state "Retake Weathertop" anyone? I was pretty sad when they nerfed it to ground later on :<

[Nidien]

It's not the difficulty of games that really gets it, it's just bad players. It's the lack of attention span over a 5 min period, lack of situational awareness and lack of actually giving a ****, and overall those said players wanting this instant gratification which basically WoW has handed them, now they demand it in every game.

 

Like Mythic...how do you go from releasing a masterpiece of DAOC until they ruined it with ToA to the mess Warhammer was....HOW? because they tried to cater to bad players and instant gratification and failed on a thousand different levels and have openly admitted so. It's a shame, and until these companies start to grow back their backbone and say no, this is our game, this is the difficulty, get better or get out, much like Dark Souls does, it's never going to change.

[XParoleX]

As as casual gamer who only plays in the evening after work, I approve of challenging games! Having something hard to beat gives you much more feeling of accomplishment then just being able to steamroll through the game.

 

If you are looking for a game you can get whatever you want with little effort go play Skyrim on PC and just type in the items you want.

[kineticdamage]

It's not the difficulty of games that really gets it, it's just bad players. It's the lack of attention span over a 5 min period, lack of situational awareness and lack of actually giving a ****, and overall those said players wanting this instant gratification which basically WoW has handed them, now they demand it in every game.

 

Like Mythic...how do you go from releasing a masterpiece of DAOC until they ruined it with ToA to the mess Warhammer was....HOW? because they tried to cater to bad players and instant gratification and failed on a thousand different levels and have openly admitted so. It's a shame, and until these companies start to grow back their backbone and say no, this is our game, this is the difficulty, get better or get out, much like Dark Souls does, it's never going to change.

 

I also see the gamer's average attention span being effectively a huge problem in game design constraints nowadays, yes.

This is why I stated in the OP how Bioware is now "partly responsible" about how future MMO gamers will set their expectations, due to swtor popularity. It all comes to education. Blizzard did a very bad job on educating MMO gamers, I think everybody does agree on that.

 

On a sidenote, to use an example, attention span is also a huge problem on forums. For example, this discussion did have many very interesting interventions, but I'm pretty sure 90% of readers will stop reading at the third post of page 1.

I'm not even sure if people will read this very post ...

Edited December 29, 2011 by kineticdamage

[kineticdamage]

Bump, so that anyone could voice their opinion about this, may it be pro or anti easiness. Edited December 30, 2011 by kineticdamage

[Timberley]

Well, I'd define myself as a casual player, and I love the challenges! If I only complete one quest a night (probably non-story as they're multi-part and take longer) then I'm happy. I don't want to race through the game to Level 50, I want to see everything the game has to offer, and have to think everytime I do an end-quest boss, as it makes the reward that much sweeter!

 

Tim

[kineticdamage]

*bump*

[Kurrak]

Thank you op. The stupid easiness is what eventually caused me to quit wow after 6 years of on and off subscription.

 

Nothing, at any level, was challenging anymore. So everything became a chore. It's that simple.

[Dredknut]

Great Post OP. This is constructive, pro-active feedback that will hopefully be heard and considered!

[Theodwulf]

It's the trap for game companies, they think they can lure non-gamers or gamers who play other genres if the just change x or y.

 

It doesn't work but the dreams of money piles is very tempting

[Raximillian]

It's the trap for game companies, they think they can lure non-gamers or gamers who play other genres if the just change x or y.

 

It doesn't work but the dreams of money piles is very tempting

 

It's a catch 22. They want to lure non-gamers into a computer game... (?)... Kind of says it right there where it will fail.

 

OPs post is pretty good.

[Rodiruk]

I'm writing this request before the game becomes too popular for Bioware not to lose control over target audience decisions.

 

Level 30 here, and most flashpoints past 20 are deliciously challenging. Not specially difficult, but at least challenging.

Each boss does have some "don't mess this up or you'll wipe" mechanic, and that's perfect, even if it's while leveling.

 

But challenging means that inevitably, a part of the playerbase will start to complain about actual game difficulty.

It will happen at some point in time.

I'm already hearing distant complaints of some players saying "I don't have the night to spend on one instance, it's too hard, please lower the difficulty so I can experience more stuff in less time".

 

So as a counter-mantra, I'll quote LucasArts game's senior director about why they changed SWTOR's older brother, Star Wars Galaxies :

 

 

 

And then came the most destroying changes in a MMO ever. Everybody knows that, even those who didn't play it. Subscriptions fell down a sink hole (you have a nice video about it here).

 

World of Warcraft is falling down the same hole actually, even since WotLK. Instant gratification, casual friendly. It is what kills MMOs interest, litterally. No need to be a Forbes analyst to guess that, you just have to play the damn games over a long time.

 

I understand that some people are less skilled to manage their spells correctly, but lowering the difficulty is really the cheapest possible solution. There are tons of other ways to help them match the required skill level, and dumbing whole thing down instead of helping each individual to improve is never a good idea.

 

Challenge is fun again, and not locked down to gathering tons of high level gear.

So I'm asking this from deep within my gamer heart :

Please, Bioware, do never, ever fall for the easy-mode demanding audience. Ever.

 

With such popularity, you're now partly responsible in how future players of any MMO will set their expectations. Don't screw it.

 

Do you think that WoW is losing subscribers because its going on 8 years old?

 

I'm one of the players they lost. Not due to the game being bad. It is still the best MMORPG out there overall. However, after 8 years I'm ready to move on to something new and refreshing.

 

Edit: I'm not saying challenge isn't fun. I just wanted to point out a different view on WoW's loss in subscribers.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Rodiruk

[kineticdamage]

Thanks guys, don't hesitate to bump the thread yourself so Bioware could read that (as we seem to be quite numerous to reject dumbed down content).

 

Do you think that WoW is losing subscribers because its going on 8 years old?

 

I'm one of the players they lost. Not due to the game being bad. It is still the best MMORPG out there overall. However, after 8 years I'm ready to move on to something new and refreshing.

 

Edit: I'm not saying challenge isn't fun. I just wanted to point out a different view on WoW's loss in subscribers.

 

You're absolutely right in some way, and what you mentions simply adds up to the lack of challenge problem. WoW is old, and that's one of the main reasons people are going away from it. One of.

 

But this is another debate, which could deserve its own thread. Re-using assets, refactoring stuff ad nauseam is another huge problem Bioware doesn't seem to be falling in yet, though. SWTOR planets are pretty varied, and I've barely seen any blatant asset refactoring.

I guess we will be able to judge on that point at the first expansion.

Edited January 2, 2012 by kineticdamage

[OBLCDiomedes]

EDIT: Interesting. I rezzed an old thread. *** Edited January 22, 2012 by OBLCDiomedes

[LenaMarie]

Most players DONT want a challenge. Its mostly the same no lifers who hang around the forums 24-7 that want a challenge. If enough people complain, EA will "dumb the game down" Its good business and every MMO does this from Wow to LoTRO and guess what? They are even more successful, its only in the imagination of the hardcore types that see them as failures. In the real world, dumbing down does make more money, which to a Corporation is all that matters. Thats the reality of it, but hey live in a fantasy world, no one will stop you. But if it comes down to Hardcore players or Money? Guess who is loosing.