Knights of the Fallen Empire - The Worst Gameplay Imaginable.

[SteveTheCynic]

So what you are basically saying is:

1) Badly designed combat encounters.

2) Badly implemented combat encounters.

 

Everything to do with KotFE since the initial release has been badly designed and badly implemented, and so too has the entirety of the LvD event.

I would say that they were mostly badly designed, although we may be straying into questions of whether the implementation meets the intent of the designers, which, if it doesn't, is one form of bad implementation. If they meant it to be like that, it is correctly *implemented* even if the design is bad. Crashes, forgotten romance flags, missions you have to log out of the game to be able to click on the clickable for, that stuff is bad implementation.

 

If they design an encounter to be forced-combat, out-of-range opening, with foes that (unlike foes in earlier content) won't approach you, and it comes out that way, then it is a good implementation of an atrocious design.

Genuine "gamers"

Don't forget the other kinds of True Scotsmen. (Seriously: when you start to argue from what a "genuine" or "true" member of some group would do, your credibility disappears faster than a snowball in a blast furnace.)

[Halinalle]

I believe the idea that story alone is enough to carry an MMO title is naive. Without gameplay you do not have a game.

 

Challenge is fun to point. Chapter 10 was just painful to play though.

 

I really miss things like Toborro's Glittering Fury, 3 bosses in Oricon etc.

[tattoohero]

I disagree. Shadow of Revan was worse. At least Skytroopers are faster to get through than doing Blood Hunt/Battle of Rishi/those annoying Yavin dailies for the billionth time.

 

So you think it's fun to just do aoe, aoe, get on mount. Next group, aoe, aoe, get on mount. If you could get on the mount, because not all chapters allowed you to get on a mount, chapter 12 comes to mind. Which is the chapter I hated so much I dumped my sub until 2 weeks ago. Sub is canceled again, I canceled it less than 12 hours after dinging it again since let it expire in April.

 

4.0 might be BWs best expansion in their view, but in my view it's an utter failure. The story is the worst they've ever done. Nothing I did mattered, it might in the next expack, but it didn't in this one. The fights were boring aoe-fest until you ran into zakuul knight or a named NPC.

 

They gave us a shiny new weapon to use against Arcann, except, you don't need it. at the 60% mark you stopped using the weapon and just used the shield. It's the lamest boss fight I've ever fought, period. I long for the KotOR style of story. One were you see the difference depending on what you did.

 

Which is the last game BW made with really different ending depending on how you play.

[merovejec]

Sub is canceled again, I canceled it less than 12 hours after dinging it again since let it expire in April.

 

lol lucky you! I subbed and next day they showed KOTET, I almost flipped !! Now i have to wait out the sub to expire since i dont want to play anymore with such crap coming.

 

 

They gave us a shiny new weapon to use against Arcann, except, you don't need it. at the 60% mark you stopped using the weapon and just used the shield.

 

lol i completely forgot about that, i didnt have the weapon equiped but still defeated him, was that wrong?

Edited August 24, 2016 by merovejec
grammar

[merovejec]

The large number of skytroopers in Chapter X wasn't the problem, and nor was their CC, nor their overwhelming tendency to appear out-of-range.

 

For me that was like ***!! I thought its wrong, i mean i was in combat, lost spring, no Rocket Bosst and they fired at me from 70 meters??? I wanted to avoid them, NOPE! They aggroed even 90m away, jesus!!

 

Yes the thing is people should get the idea that the game is (as said many times before) in maintanance mode, which means no real Developers, no real programers, just Highschool kids hired for a specific job. No testing, many bugs (like you said the logging out), you even had that in the Dufly guide to logout if you dont see the NPC, thats crazy!! You have to realize we are paying customers. Yes, things do get messed up, but not all the time, they make even more bugs when they try to fix something.

 

All this doesnt makes me feel like the game is in good hands. Think about it, if the game had all the support that Bioware claims, would it be like this? They claim its awesome story and very well received, but in the last stream they admit ppl are disappointed with ending. Musco said himself in terms of the LvsD event: if you dont have slots, level the toon to 50 and delete him, then make another one. ***, a real gamer wouldnt say it just like that!

[HuaRya]

Shadow of Revan gameplay was a magnum opus in comparison to KotFE.

 

Skytrooper

Skytrooper

Skytrooper

Skytrooper elite

Named NPC

Skytooper

Skytrooper

Skytrooper

Skytrooper

 

Copy that 16 times and you pretty much have ALL of KotFE's "gameplay".

 

All The Best

 

Agreed thats why only a couple of my alts are doing KOTFE. Wish you could kite them all to one room and AOE them.

[SteveTheCynic]

Yes the thing is people should get the idea that the game is (as said many times before) in maintanance mode, which means no real Developers, no real programers, just Highschool kids hired for a specific job. No testing, many bugs (like you said the logging out), you even had that in the Dufly guide to logout if you dont see the NPC, thats crazy!! You have to realize we are paying customers. Yes, things do get messed up, but not all the time, they make even more bugs when they try to fix something.

Despite those other things in the cited text (and you're exaggerating a bit, but hyperbole is OK, really, so long as you don't come to treat it like God's Own Truth), SWTOR is NOT in maintenance mode. The fact that people say it repeatedly does not make it true.

 

Do you want to see a game that's in maintenance mode? Really, truly in maintenance mode?

 

Play Guild Wars 1.

 

There is *no* development going on *at*all* in that game. They explicity dropped all planned update work in favour of fixing it up so they could just set it running and watch it to make sure it doesn't flake out. The servers are up, and the game runs. Scheduled events occur as scheduled, and the PvP tournaments run as normal, but in an automated way. If something breaks, they fix it, but apart from that, there is NO development work done on it *at*all*.

 

That's maintenance mode.

[Storm-Cutter]

//waves hand//

There is no gameplay in the later stages of the game.

//waves hand//

 

the whole 16 chapters was an exercise in screwing money out of you for months, in return for a few minutes of story and a lot of padding- where if you set your companion to heal and spam your basic attack, you can beat any of the enemies.

 

The moment that people wake up and realize that they're just watching a 5-10 minute cartoon with monthly installments the better.

 

If you want a challenge there are still a few things in game that can tax your noggin. But playing the story (sadly) isn't it.

 

Saddest thing is that the studio take note and reply to those who liked the story. the criticism fell on deaf ears and blind eyes.

 

Keep subbing for more of the same. - The Empire thanks you for your sacrifice!

 

SWTOR isn't dead, but it isn't exactly thriving either.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Storm-Cutter

[Technohic]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet but I am sure it has been mentioned somewhere. What bothers me a lot is bosses immune to interrupts, roots/snares, and CC. I feel like even if not difficult; you should be encouraging the player to use all of their tools rather than just face tank everything. It's creating bad play by not rewarding using all of your tools.

[Tsetso]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet but I am sure it has been mentioned somewhere. What bothers me a lot is bosses immune to interrupts, roots/snares, and CC. I feel like even if not difficult; you should be encouraging the player to use all of their tools rather than just face tank everything. It's creating bad play by not rewarding using all of your tools.

 

Yes, especially on my conc op and decpetion sin it's really annoying since i can't backstab or maul because of the stupid autofacing feature.

[TUXs]

I believe the idea that story alone is enough to carry an MMO title is naive. Without gameplay you do not have a game.

I could not agree more!

[Andryah]

After running heroics the other day on my main legacy server, with a low affection companion, and spamming basic attacks out of boredom... I hope you don't mind me disagreeing with that sentiment.

 

On a fresh server, without that presence boost, at lower levels with a low affection companion there is a slightly more perceptable difference in how companions cope. I'd still hardly call it a challenge going through a map tapping 11111111111 :cool:

 

And... you missed a very key point in my earlier comment..... you are experienced at playing the game and the nuances of leveling efficiently and without incident.

 

When you have "been there, done that" of course it is easier, even when starting a fresh legacy.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Andryah

[BrotherJohn]

The issue is that the story is incredibly poor at the core. The writer who they employed to work KOTFE is at best just a fan fiction writer and a poor one by the story we were given. Couple that with the designers of the chapters taking that story and just totally cobbling it together with this and that parts but no real connection.

 

To add to this issue of just poor management of the chapter story, there is little to do in the actual game play because they solely focused on cut scenes and no a GAME. so the game mechanics are just filler.

[FireFoxed]

So you think it's fun to just do aoe, aoe, get on mount. Next group, aoe, aoe, get on mount. If you could get on the mount, because not all chapters allowed you to get on a mount, chapter 12 comes to mind. Which is the chapter I hated so much I dumped my sub until 2 weeks ago. Sub is canceled again, I canceled it less than 12 hours after dinging it again since let it expire in April.

 

4.0 might be BWs best expansion in their view, but in my view it's an utter failure. The story is the worst they've ever done. Nothing I did mattered, it might in the next expack, but it didn't in this one. The fights were boring aoe-fest until you ran into zakuul knight or a named NPC.

 

They gave us a shiny new weapon to use against Arcann, except, you don't need it. at the 60% mark you stopped using the weapon and just used the shield. It's the lamest boss fight I've ever fought, period. I long for the KotOR style of story. One were you see the difference depending on what you did.

 

Which is the last game BW made with really different ending depending on how you play.

 

I never said FE was good, only that SoR was worse. Can you mount in Blood Hunt? No? Did anything matter in SoR? Could I kill Kai Zyken or spare Revan? Is doing Shae Vizla with a droid where you cannot die really more exciting? At least FE tries to make choices matter (even if it fails), SoR didn't even try at all and was worth exactly one playthrough.

 

My point is how many times do you play the FE story? One or twice, maybe ten or twenty for the insane with that many alts. How many times do you do Blood Hunt or the Yavin dailies? Way more than that, because it's repeatable content disguised as story content. Is aoeing stoneray packs on Yavin 4 really more fun than skytrooper packs? Would you rather replay content for the second time on your second alt or the hundredth time on your second alt?

Edited August 24, 2016 by FireFoxed

[Andryah]

Do you want to see a game that's in maintenance mode? Really, truly in maintenance mode?

 

It's a narrative that is convenient to his personal distaste for the game.

 

Though, given an objective read of the listing of credits at the end of chapter 16... his narrative is completely scooters with a thick layer of hyperbolic frosting on top.

 

But hey.. he has announced he has let is sub lapse and he has prepped for the coming expac in WoW.... so he is just getting in his petty attacks on the way out the door I guess.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Andryah

[Andryah]

The issue is that the story is incredibly poor at the core. The writer who they employed to work KOTFE is at best just a fan fiction writer and a poor one by the story we were given. Couple that with the designers of the chapters taking that story and just totally cobbling it together with this and that parts but no real connection.

 

To add to this issue of just poor management of the chapter story, there is little to do in the actual game play because they solely focused on cut scenes and no a GAME. so the game mechanics are just filler.

 

Some day.... some day... you will make a single positive, or at least neutral, comment about the game... and the universe will implode. Not going to hold my breath though.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Andryah

[TUXs]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet but I am sure it has been mentioned somewhere. What bothers me a lot is bosses immune to interrupts, roots/snares, and CC. I feel like even if not difficult; you should be encouraging the player to use all of their tools rather than just face tank everything. It's creating bad play by not rewarding using all of your tools.

I was just ************ about this the other day. You're absolutely right, it creates TERRIBLE habits. No wonder 99% of the players don't know what the hell an interrupt is.

[Andryah]

So.. let's revisit the premise of this thread.

 

"The Worst Gameplay Imaginable"

 

Not even close. I can think back to many MMOs in the past that indeed made worse gameplay decisions, some fatal to a game, most not fatal at all. And I can certainly "imagine" worse decisions in an MMO. I'm sure other sincere players can as well. But that is not the core nature of some MMO players these days. They would rather complain and complain and do so in extreme measure.... for whatever reason. As if they actually had any say in game design for a game they freely choose to continue to play.

 

But I do find it interesting how emotionally wrapped around the axle some players get over a game, and will resort to over the top declarations to support their pretext.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Andryah

[Transcendent]

They gave us a shiny new weapon to use against Arcann, except, you don't need it.

 

I didn't use it on my Merc, I couldn't be arsed to pull my mods out (using credits!) and stick them into the ugly gun they gave me (also no offhand!). Didn't make a difference.

 

Not sure what the point of the chapter was, with Marr and Satele in it. I didn't even use it!. Made no difference to using it on my Shadow, ending was the same.

[Andryah]

I didn't use it on my Merc, I couldn't be arsed to pull my mods out (using credits!) and stick them into the ugly gun they gave me (also no offhand!). Didn't make a difference.

 

Not sure what the point of the chapter was, with Marr and Satele in it. I didn't even use it!. Made no difference to using it on my Shadow, ending was the same.

 

Yeah, I think that was a token item to please those that crave items, especially weapons, more so then a rigid mechanic in the chapter.

 

It's kind of a balancing act for studios, given the wide range of players that play an MMO. If they made it mandatory and significant to the story... some people would fail miserably in the chapter, then complain and get all worked up that the chapter is too hard, or even "impossible". You would think experienced players would know better and be able to adapt.... but forum posting history suggests otherwise.

 

General MMO Theorycraft: For any given feature added to an MMO..... ~20% of players will love it, ~20% of players will hate it (even if it were a fluffy cuddly kitten), and ~60% of players won't care one way or the other and will just play the game. Hence, any given choice by a studio will only be negatively perceived by around 1 in 5 players.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Andryah

[VirtualMorrigan]

But I do find it interesting how emotionally wrapped around the axle some players get over a game, and will resort to over the top declarations to support their pretext.

 

I find that behaviour quite interesting as well, and you know what? I see you foremost in all discussions, making the same snide comments regardless of topic. Yes, you are right, some people are really emotionally involved.

[TUXs]

I find that behaviour quite interesting as well, and you know what? I see you foremost in all discussions, making the same snide comments regardless of topic. Yes, you are right, some people are really emotionally involved.

I'm glad you notice it too!

[peter_plankskull]

So.. let's revisit the premise of this thread.

 

"The Worst Gameplay Imaginable"

 

Not even close. I can think back to many MMOs in the past that indeed made worse gameplay decisions, some fatal to a game, most not fatal at all. And I can certainly "imagine" worse decisions in an MMO. I'm sure other sincere players can as well. But that is not the core nature of some MMO players these days. They would rather complain and complain and do so in extreme measure.... for whatever reason. As if they actually had any say game design for a game they freely choose to continue to play.

 

But I do find it interesting how emotionally wrapped around the axle some players get over a game, and will resort to over the top declarations to support their pretext.

 

I admitted before that my experience with MMOs in general are literally two games and a week at another, and one of them was a childs game by Disney that I probably have rose tinted glasses on with when looking back. ALL the other game series I played, Call of duty, Metal Gear Solid, Battlefield, Uncharted, Star Wars Force Unleashed, Star Wars Dark Forces, TMNT 2003 4kids games, Age of Empires, Company of Heroes, and countless other games, NEVER had such a small difficulty curve and automated approach like KOTFE. So from my personal experience, KOTFE IS the worst gameplay I have seen and actually imagine.

 

Why don't you stop making such broad statements anyway and actually use more precise ones stating which MMOs had far worse gameplay, what made them so bad, and were they by a AAA company like EA/Bioware, since theirs SO many?

[Jamtas]

Didn't Ben in the last live stream mention (I'm about to heavily paraphrase) they made it easy as possible so that a very casual player enticed by the movie could just show up, use the free 60 token and get to see the story without having to worry about learning how to play? How KOTFE was never intended to be something that players had to train or think through - just sit back and enjoy the ride.

 

Knowing that, kinda puts the response of the thread to BW knows, but that was by design

Edited August 24, 2016 by Jamtas

[Andryah]

Didn't Ben in the last live stream mention (I'm about to heavily paraphrase) they made it easy as possible so that a very casual player enticed by the movie could just show up, use the free 60 token and get to see the story without having to worry about learning how to play? How KOTFE was never intended to be something that players had to train or think through - just sit back and enjoy the ride.

 

Knowing that, kinda puts the respponse of the thread to BW knows, but that was by design

 

Exactly.

 

They have made a choice here.... to make the onramp of the game smooth and easy for newer players. The fact that for veteran players it's, to some, too easy... ignores the reasons behind the choice the studio has made. And comparing an MMOs difficulty curve in leveling to any single player game or small group console game, as some are doing here, is a deliberate misdirection IMO.

 

Personally, I think the studio has finally grasped the fact that a good percentage of MMO players these days have absolutely zero loyalty to any MMO (regardless of what they may claim otherwise) and hence they see the onramp for new players to be integral to keeping the game on keel over the long run. Of course there will be ebb and flow of players around expacs.... that's they way it is now days in MMOs. So, you might as well embrace it and work with it, IMO.

 

Now, some people embrace this and some people rail over it..... but it is what it is.

 

In my view... as a veteran player, I appreciate that they keep tuning the onramp for newer players to come in to the game and be up to speed with veterans in a reasonable amount of time. Beyond the normal leveling treadmill that is part of every MMO......there is plenty of challenging content in this game for anyone who seeks it. It may not please everyone.. which is why players each get to choose for themselves to play or not play what is offered.

 

Game is still fun, so I continue to play it. If it become not-fun, I will play something else. I certainly do not expect the studio to cater to any players specific and personal wants/needs or views about the game. Which in no way is a defense of the studio or the game. Like any studio and game, they will handle some things poorly, but KoTFE is not, in my view, an example of this with SWTOR. If they had released the usual group end game content updates along with the chapters... we would not be having this discussion. In many ways, complaints about KoTFE are non sequitur to some players actual issue... insufficient (for them) end game group PvE and PvP content.

 

Paying to play something you do not like.... when you have an option to play it Preferred, or not at all..... makes no sense whatsoever in the context of something as trivial in life as an online game.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Andryah