evehing we said in the past, came true...don't say we didn't warn you

[Mikahrone]

Why would they have insight into Blizzard's documents when the changes in WoW were live a year or more before they suddenly migrated into a SWTOR format from BioWare?

 

So to reiterate:

 

SWTOR somehow copied companions from WoW. Even if SWTOR launched with them.

 

SWTORs focus on story and storytelling and ditching raids is copied from WoW

 

Making it easier (umm, that started happened long before WoW) is copying WoW.

 

How are disciplines/unitility copy of WoW?

 

Anything else?

 

What you WANTED to say is BW is correting flaws that were ingame inthe first place because copying WoW before launch.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Mikahrone

[Bobs_YourUncle]

idk, the expansion is great for me. 12x allowed me to just enjoy the story and get all the classes done. I only do pvp and endgame ops and fps on my main. I was a bad before 12x, after leveling a healing operative, a trooper, and a sorc. Bads will always be a problem for those that can't find enough friends to run stuff with.

 

This expansion will be like the others for me. I run through it with my main and a couple of alts. I do the endgame grind on my main and level other alts. I will pvp on run hms, maybe even an op or two here or there, on my main, all while waiting on the next release of content.

 

Warn me of what exactly? The games alive, and has tons of stuff that I enjoy. If you mean the game will die, then yeah that's nothing new, there's a "game's dead/dieing" thread every week.

[Melacon]

OP makes some points but falls very short on others

 

The Forced Level Sync isnt as bad as it sounded on paper

However the bolster in flashpoints is a complete failure

Doesnt matter if its a tactical FP, a bolstered level 20 still only has the abilities of a level 20 character, which makes then ultra weak when in designed level 50-65 content.

 

Was in tactical yesterday were obnoxious lvl 20 shadow (DPS of course, must be FOTM after all) was screaming bloody murder that I wasnt cleansing a gernade effect off her in Taral V final Boss. Ended up dropping group because she was simply to stupid to argue with. There is no cleanse in boss fight of Taral V, you use defensive abilities to absorb the initial assault (and utilize healing terminals in tactical mode...which she refused to do as not a healer. Not her job in her mind). Truth is she was ill prepared as a bolstered level 20 for that flashpoint and it was no one elses fault. She simply should not have been there. Now her being an obnoxious idiot, well thats completely her fault and why her name was shared on ignore lists last night and today.

 

the bolster is a complete and utter failure and hurts the game more then anything.

They should either make level brackets or just remove the pre level 50 bolster completely from sm and hm fps and ops

 

 

Long post to prove a point but you are completely wrong on this and I would have quit your group to. This is why they are hard, it isn't because of the lack of skills, it's because people like you are to good to look up the fight or take criticism from others.

[Uruare]

Want a hard MMO?

Play Secret World and don't Google any mission solutions.

 

When you can't get off Solomon Island because you couldn't even build a priority functional character and corner complete any of the missions that invoices much more than going to a place and killing the things, you can come back and relax with some relaxed Star Wars.

 

Cause really, I think we all know that at least some of you ringing your hands like it's a sob-a-thon contest and you're in it to win it aren't actually wanting to play a harder game.

 

If that's what you wanted, that's what you'd very likely be doing, after all.

 

They do exist, and in relative abundance.

 

Play them. Or play some SWTOR and enjoy it fit what it is.

 

Or keep moaning like beaten, abused and neglected orphans that Mean Mister Bioware took all the birthdays away from.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Uruare

[CarpeSangrea]

Everything you complained about in that magnum opus of yours existed well before 12x-Xp.

[CarpeSangrea]

Want a hard MMO?

Play Secret World and don't Google any mission solutions.

 

When you can't get off Solomon Island because you couldn't even build a priority functional character and corner complete any of the missions that invoices much more than going to a place and killing the things, you can come back and relax with some relaxed Star Wars.

 

Cause really, I think we all know that at least some of you ringing your hands like it's a sob-a-thon contest and you're in it to win it aren't actually wanting to play a harder game.

 

If that's what you wanted, that's what you'd very likely be doing, after all.

 

They do exist, and in relative abundance.

 

Play them. Or play some SWTOR and enjoy it fit what it is.

 

Or keep moaning like beaten, abused and neglected orphans that Mean Mister Bioware took all the birthdays away from.

 

I actually started a new toon in that game recently after a long hiatus and I'm having a lot of fun with it.

[psikofunkster]

Was in tactical yesterday were obnoxious lvl 20 shadow (DPS of course, must be FOTM after all)

 

Why the suddenly hate for Shadows DPS? it is not the first time i've seen this lately. Comments like Shadows are not "viable" for 4.0.......

 

Take a look at your current game state, thats not "viable".....

 

Ah and your awesome Mercenary IO is not top dps parser anymore, FOTM are PT AP......sorry.....

Edited November 2, 2015 by psikofunkster

[Teladis]

LMAO DOOOM DOOOOM I say.

 

 

When they release story the sub will go back up, Right now, SWTOR is going to last for many of us until fallout 4 is release. We will take a small break. Heavily play that game that last some of us months. Come back to swtor and pick up where we left off.

 

 

What have you warned us about? Before many players would not give this game the time of day. It was a failure as a mmo. A failure as a Bioware game, and a failure of a Knights game.

 

This game is MUCH MUCH better now. I have a reason to want to sub now. Before it was sure as heck not for the tedious combat. It sure as heck not for the story. Both were bad. Now one is bad, and the other is great. So they will have my money.

 

 

Want to know why they changed it? Because you few fans who loved pre 4.0 was not enough for Bioware. They needed new blood, and that is why it changed. If this change fails to bring that in. You can say "See I am right." and watch this game die. However, I will say this. The way the game was going before? It would have died anyway. So you better "Hope" that 4.0 brings enough for new blood.

 

Either way. The game that you liked was not enough on the market.

[EnkiduNineEight]

LMAO DOOOM DOOOOM I say.

 

 

When they release story the sub will go back up, Right now, SWTOR is going to last for many of us until fallout 4 is release. We will take a small break. Heavily play that game that last some of us months. Come back to swtor and pick up where we left off.

 

 

What have you warned us about? Before many players would not give this game the time of day. It was a failure as a mmo. A failure as a Bioware game, and a failure of a Knights game.

 

This game is MUCH MUCH better now. I have a reason to want to sub now. Before it was sure as heck not for the tedious combat. It sure as heck not for the story. Both were bad. Now one is bad, and the other is great. So they will have my money.

 

 

Want to know why they changed it? Because you few fans who loved pre 4.0 was not enough for Bioware. They needed new blood, and that is why it changed. If this change fails to bring that in. You can say "See I am right." and watch this game die. However, I will say this. The way the game was going before? It would have died anyway. So you better "Hope" that 4.0 brings enough for new blood.

 

Either way. The game that you liked was not enough on the market.

 

So, from what I understand, Fallout IV has significant playability/replayability built in. The new things they are adding like building towns/trade etc can be significantly involving.

 

So, will you continue to pay for your sub (if you are on a monthly plan, I'm stuck on a six month sub that renews in 5 months) while you are playing Fallout IV, or otherwise occupying yourself while you wait for more chapters.

 

This isn't an attack on you, but just a question based on my concerns about their new model. Its of course going to result in an uptick of subs on release because you have to be subbed to get the content, but will these be retained subs, or will they be lapsed subs until players determine there is value in subbing again to get more content?

 

Just getting your thought since you specifically talked about it above.

[Teladis]

So, from what I understand, Fallout IV has significant playability/replayability built in. The new things they are adding like building towns/trade etc can be significantly involving.

 

So, will you continue to pay for your sub (if you are on a monthly plan, I'm stuck on a six month sub that renews in 5 months) while you are playing Fallout IV, or otherwise occupying yourself while you wait for more chapters.

 

This isn't an attack on you, but just a question based on my concerns about their new model. Its of course going to result in an uptick of subs on release because you have to be subbed to get the content, but will these be retained subs, or will they be lapsed subs until players determine there is value in subbing again to get more content?

 

Just getting your thought since you specifically talked about it above.

 

New games come out and many players take breaks from mmos, Around this season is when subs/mmos drop down.

 

Fallout 4 is huge and with mod support can last a very long time for many players. Heck some players still play fallout 3 and skyrim even now.

 

When they did this system, they knew the effects of people will unsub until more story comes out. They picked to wait until next year so they can release monthly updates (or faster) making people keep sub going. Right now? This game story is amazing, but still a very very very bad mmo with tedious combat.

 

 

The only way they can turn this around is revamp the combat, and keep pumping story. They just don't have time or power to do that. So they are focus on story. This is the best they can do.

[VanorDM]

Want a hard MMO?

Play Secret World and don't Google any mission solutions.

 

they actually toned it down a fair amount a few months ago. It's still a lot harder then SWTOR. But it's clear that people in general really don't want their MMO's to be super hard.

[Teladis]

they actually toned it down a fair amount a few months ago. It's still a lot harder then SWTOR. But it's clear that people in general really don't want their MMO's to be super hard.

 

That is right because MMOs are for all skill set and players.

 

Most players don't mind an OPTION to be hard for players who want it, but the core game itself, should be for all skill levels and should not be tough. Many moms, dads, heck even grandmothers play mmos now. They are not the best of the players and want a enjoyable casual time. Even easy no risk killing is fun for many players.

 

Wildstar is proof that a tedious harder game just does not work.

[TUXs]

If you're playing a BioWare game for something other than story and characters then you're doing it wrong.

I'm playing it because it's a Star Wars MMO...Bioware has nothing to do with it. How am I wrong?

[Hockaday]

Actually I am. Luckily my wife is sane. I have shown her some of the post on here. She chuckled and said (Sometimes I wonder how the human race has made it this far). I laughed. I tell you some of these forums make you loose faith in humanity. Its funny in a dark scary way.

 

MMO forums are more toxic than Nucular Waste lol. They should carry a tag saying "If you have an IQ under 100 we want to hear from you! BTW crayons are over there."

 

Well then.

[EnkiduNineEight]

New games come out and many players take breaks from mmos, Around this season is when subs/mmos drop down.

 

Fallout 4 is huge and with mod support can last a very long time for many players. Heck some players still play fallout 3 and skyrim even now.

 

When they did this system, they knew the effects of people will unsub until more story comes out. They picked to wait until next year so they can release monthly updates (or faster) making people keep sub going. Right now? This game story is amazing, but still a very very very bad mmo with tedious combat.

 

 

The only way they can turn this around is revamp the combat, and keep pumping story. They just don't have time or power to do that. So they are focus on story. This is the best they can do.

 

Right, but is banking an maybe anhours worth of contentMonthly really going to provide the longevity and customer base they want? At what point do people start realizing that they are paying too much for the interim they don't really like?

 

EG.. addressing it as a profit model, I believe it seems more logical to do what you can to hook and hold customers with an engaging long term experiene, rather than occasionally re-engage people for shirt term experiences. Its a time/effort equation. To continue to rope back 'lost players' by releasing new content in the form of monthly updates and convince them the price is worth the experience is likely fairly costly. I don't know the internals though, so I can only speculate.

 

For my own part, I would likely accept a smaller sub base of long term subscribers with known predilections to purchasing perks (cartel market etc) then a larger sub base that is infrequent and malleable and spends significantly less on the market because it has little value to them (if I'm just going to unsub for 3-5 months until there is enough story content for me again, and its the story content I want, it doesn't matter as much how my avatar looks in their day to day activity and I don't get bored with it because I'm not looking at their backside daily for 30 minutes to several hours, depending on the player.

 

We're all in a vacuum there, since bioWare isn't being transparent on their business model and financials. I know that in my customer focused industry, we focus on retention not the gadfly.

[Zeris]

Uh. Thanks... for the warning, I guess?

 

What warning are we talking about? Is this like Revenge of the Body Snatchers and I haven't become "we" yet?

[Kianabamin]

there is a small minority of us that have raised the red flags and warned the community about watching what you ask for.

 

first off BW gave us x12XP for month. people went nuts and demanded it to be permanent. a couple months later and multiple anti-x12XP threads, it still happened. everything we warned you about came true. bads in pvp, bads in HMFP, and Ops. yet BW kept x12XP going until the launch of 4.0

 

the entitled are still upset at x12XP demise. though they ended up complaining about it in some form or fashion later on. they realize we were right. but wouldn't admit it.

 

next players wanted stronger companions. yet they did not gear their companions. they did not learn to control their companions effectively. they just wanted freebies and an easy button. #GameIsHard. well now we have numerous threads saying companions are Over Powered. yet they just have huge health pools and big bursty damage. the new companions have ZERO DEFENSES. jump in game and look for yourself. they cant take a hit and forget about taking burst DPS or multiple targets. they melt. forget about doing HMFP solo with your companion, even at Influence Rank 50, they suck at taking hits. they can not stand up long enough to finish off bosses with their big DPS crits. at least in pre-4.0 you could tweak your companions build via Gear and the stats actually mattered. look at your companions defense, absorb, shield, tech and force stats. they are minimal at best if now 0. thats right a big goose egg. there are operatives that have more defense mitigation than your awesomesause companion.

http://mrdeids.com/Liquor/Images/SWTOR/SWTOR_4-0_Companion_Stats_Pierce_Influence_50.png

 

KOTFE, well we had ROTHC which gets little play time anymore. it had a short operation. more like a flashpoint without all the running around. then SOR came and the fanboys got their panties in a bunch over Revan. i honsestly dont know anyone that ran all their toons through rishi and yain4. it just got boring and so repetitive. reminded me of makeb...that brings us to KOTFE, more of the same, yet dumbed down to a simpler casual gamer. I'd say simple minded casual gamer but they would throw a fit. we warned you about the "dumbification" of SWTOR. how 4.0 would change the game. NGE and CU was thrown around. fanboys rejected us. but who is laughing now?

 

look back to Patch 2.7 when some classes had abilities merged, changed from active to passive, and even outright removed from the game.the playstyle changed for that roll just enough it felt clunky. the moves and abilities were missed. (still are)BW eventually reacted by adding damage to another skill, adding that you couldnt turn as an effect, then tacked on a snare effect. LoL why remove hidden strike if the effect was not going away? they dumbed down classes, we called it back then.

 

now move through those late 2.x patches into 3.0. the forums were ablaze with rage posts on nerfs. some anni mara is still crying in the corner. take all these changes, crew skills, 4.0 changes, and what do you have? CORE GAME CHANGES. the game has changed so dramatically in such small steps the fanboys didnt know what hit them until it was too late.

 

what we have now is not SWTOR as we saw on release day. it is not a polished version of that. maybe a polished turd, but we still have bugs and issues with codex from launch...LoL...really BW? dont have enough pride in your game to fix whats broken?

 

pets with high HP and Crit Hits but no defenses and melt if you so much as sneeze at them - oh they are companions...thats right. might as well be pets since gear does not impact their stats anymore. barbie dolls

 

XP gains are so large now that its way too easy to out level your gear.

 

crew skills do not keep up with XP gained levels

 

credits do not keep up with XP gained levels

 

im not even going to go into the mess that is mastery and the loss of those schematics and gear. that would triple the length of this post

 

73/74 datacrons...LoL oh and you have to log each toon on to ensure their codex loads legacy wide...

 

missions dont update correctly. have to reset the current leg of the mission and re-accomplish it

 

prices in CM were adjusted...last i checked F2P dont have enough money for a sub, why would they spend their hard earned paychecks on internet barbie outfits?

 

we didnt get a new operation or war zone because these super casual simple gamers dont have the time for them nor want to put the effort into it

 

we used to brag about soloing that Hard Mode Flashpoint with our "lesser" companions in pre-4.0. even made videos of our achievements. yet these "Over Powered" companions in post-4.0 fail hard. if you think the companions are OP, do harder content...

 

we few warned of all of this and so much more. we were blasted, trolled, called names, shut down. BW listened to the entitled liberals and gave them more cheese. reading these threads since the early release of 4.0 and the majority of you fanboys are not happy. there is only but a handful of threads and posts that truly praise the 4.0 changes. and thats with forum moderators actively closing threads, deleting posts, banning members that were negative about KOTFE. you dont even know how many people are no longer posting. BW trimmed the forums to show more positive than negative and they even failed at that.

 

the actions of the moderators wasnt even consistent. fanboys were over looked while the few of us were banned instantly. sure its their board. their site. but they dont even follow their own rules. musco and tait even troll forum members

 

EA and BW gambled and it will fail. sorry but we have a track record of being right...Bioware's KOTFE 4.0 = SOE NGE and you were warned over a year ago about it...

 

Wow, your just so, so , awesome aren't you.

But I like the new game so.....yeah.

[LordArtemis]

For my own part, I would likely accept a smaller sub base of long term subscribers with known predilections to purchasing perks (cartel market etc) then a larger sub base that is infrequent and malleable and spends significantly less on the market because it has little value to them (if I'm just going to unsub for 3-5 months until there is enough story content for me again, and its the story content I want, it doesn't matter as much how my avatar looks in their day to day activity and I don't get bored with it because I'm not looking at their backside daily for 30 minutes to several hours, depending on the player.

 

We're all in a vacuum there, since bioWare isn't being transparent on their business model and financials. I know that in my customer focused industry, we focus on retention not the gadfly.

 

Sensible on the surface, but most studies have demonstrated that the most loyal and consistent customer in MMOs....hardcore players....represent only 10 to 28 percent of the market (depending on which study you look at).

 

There is generally a significant difference between loyal fanbase and transient base as far as profit potential is concerned. Casual players dominate the market, and they tend to be far more transient and fickle than hardcore players...but they keep the lights on.

 

Consider this...the cost of a monthly sub has not generally changed in 15 years. The only way, generally speaking of course, that MMOs can remain profitable is to "fill the seats", so to speak.

[Eanelinea]

Yep. All they have done is make them selves look like fools. They are paying money for something they dislike. I really dislike onions of all shapes and sizes. I do NOT knowingly order the blooming onion at outback lol To do so would be stupidity on my part

PS> They claim "if we complain maybe they will fix what we dont like" Riiiiight thats like me going to vegas and paying for a h$$ker I know is lousy, praying if I give her tips on what I like things will go better lol

 

Serious note here: You want to fix the game and change what you do not like for real? Apply and JOIN the development team. No joke. I know someone who joined Blizzard just for that reason with his favorite mmo. ;)Otherwise you are the fat dude who sits on the couch eating cookies and cake crying that he never loses weight

 

Exactly. There's a big difference between not liking a change, sure no one completely likes every single thing in the game. Some like some bits, some likes other bits.

 

Take me for example, I STILL want an optional level sync. But so far, after doing chapters 1-9, 9 times (I have 22 60s) to get my main people thru Kotfe's story, and doing the heroics, I understand WHY it's down sync'd. Doesn't mean I still don't want it optional.

 

But I keep playing because overall, the rest of the changes and such aren't that bad. I am waiting impatiently to get the rest of my original crew back in the story, don't want to use the Terminal JUST yet.

 

Anyway, I played the open beta of Everquest's Landmark. I enjoyed it at first. Basically the whole point of that game was to build houses and structures. Nothing else. Then they changed stuff for no good reason and added mobs to kill. I didn't like the changes because I was there to build houses, nothing else. So I stopped playing.

 

Everquest, I played that game for YEARS, and then one day, during a patch they had, they accidentally left a vendor in POK that sold cheap materials. The crafters flocked that vendor in droves. Instead of punishing only those crafters who used the vendor, you know removing their money or items, they rolled back the ENTIRE servers by weeks, affecting ANYONE who bought of that crafter, or bought off someone who bought off that crafter. So if you bought a widget from 5 people down the line, you could have gained 10 levels and lost those levels, any gear or money you made, you name it. I left Everquest because of that.

 

If you don't like a game or company, you leave. No fanfare, no look at me posts. You just stop paying and move on.

[EnkiduNineEight]

Sensible on the surface, but most studies have demonstrated that the most loyal and consistent customer in MMOs....hardcore players....represent only 10 to 28 percent of the market (depending on which study you look at).

 

There is generally a significant difference between loyal fanbase and transient base as far as profit potential is concerned. Casual players dominate the market, and they tend to be far more transient and fickle than hardcore players...but they keep the lights on.

 

Consider this...the cost of a monthly sub has not generally changed in 15 years. The only way, generally speaking of course, that MMOs can remain profitable is to "fill the seats", so to speak.

 

Yes, but are the seats really being filled? That 33% bump was 33% off the old number, not the peak. Also, I am pretty certain of that 33% bump a goodlyporition will resume not being subscribers within 3 months, and that making those 'come lately' players happy, they will lose some of their prior base.

 

Balancing this against the costs tokeep the players happy over time and engaged so they retain their subs, I was just wondering the wisdom. Everything we have is speculation because BioWare doesn't say.

 

Basically their 33% bump just proves that a 4 million dollar trailer can make people excited. Me.. I wish that 4 million had been spent on development and coders community polling etc.

[Duedroth]

to OP: nah.

[Hiply]

most of us have been banned from the forums

 

 

Well shoot, I can't imagine why that might have happened....

[Uruare]

I actually started a new toon in that game recently after a long hiatus and I'm having a lot of fun with it.

 

It really is a lot of fun. It's been my go to for challenge in an MMO r several years now.

 

The learning curve's murderous edge has softened slightly, but the missions are still occasionally brain destroying and patience challenging to the extreme.

 

When that's what I'm wanting... Oh boy does Secret World deliver.

 

And the setting is just creepy neat too

[LordArtemis]

Yes, but are the seats really being filled? That 33% bump was 33% off the old number, not the peak. Also, I am pretty certain of that 33% bump a goodlyporition will resume not being subscribers within 3 months, and that making those 'come lately' players happy, they will lose some of their prior base.

 

Balancing this against the costs tokeep the players happy over time and engaged so they retain their subs, I was just wondering the wisdom. Everything we have is speculation because BioWare doesn't say.

 

Basically their 33% bump just proves that a 4 million dollar trailer can make people excited. Me.. I wish that 4 million had been spent on development and coders community polling etc.

 

I can't speak to solid numbers with any credibility, but for the sake of the discussion I will discuss what I feel are a few likely realities of some of the numbers you pointed to in your post.

 

First, I think 33 percent was a poor showing. Far lower than they likely expected. I do not think that the level sync (which turned out to be better than expected IMO) or the long barrage of ability changes helped the title. The bump should have been MUCH higher.

 

I think it will SEEM more sustainable because word of mouth (engaging story, positive changes, level sync not as bad, companion strength, etc.) will bring in skeptical folks to replace SOME of those that leave for their own reasons...including transience. But overall the impact of this expansion will not likely meet expections UNLESS some changes are made immediately.

 

I do not have faith that will happen at the pace it needs to occur.

 

I direct you to one of the my last posts during the CSM debacle.....

 

Note that some, not all, of the suggestions there were implemented in one way or another (not that I am taking credit of course). However, the speed at which they implemented those arguably needed changes was lethargic at best, and did not likely accomplish the goal of mitigating the losses that the game obviously suffered in the following months.

 

As a result of the CSM? Probably not by itself, but it could have been a contributing factor. Most likely a lack of proper communication (which continues today) was the largest detriment to retention at that time.

 

Bioware just simply does not seem to know how to talk to their players properly. The level sync system is a perfect example....not as bad as expected, but losses still likely occurred due to lack of information thanks to Bioware. Losses that were likely unnecessary and could be easily avoided.

 

Yes, this bump is likely transient, and perhaps it would have been better to invest that money elsewhere, but frankly the current population is likely not sustainable....at least not with the litany of mistakes that Bioware has been making as of late.

 

This game is far too transient, IMO, based on poor decisions that could easily be avoided.

 

So your insight, that increases will likely not stem losses is probably prophetic.....however I do not expect losses to be substantial in the short term. It all STRONGLY depends on what they do in the next 45 to 60 days.

 

Frankly my expectations are rather low. However, I do still hold out hope that they will see the light.

[_NovaBlast_]

If you're playing a BioWare game for something other than story and characters then you're doing it wrong.

 

^ this and if you are playing it for other reasons than above you probably also think the definition of a "MMO" means there HAS to be pvp raids and other forced group content which is also completely wrong.

Edited November 2, 2015 by _NovaBlast_