Game Update 4.0 Class Changes: Jedi Consular + Sith Inquisitor

[Rilok_Singz]

If you don't have a sorc in 4.0, you're wrong. Phase walk AND barrier on the move.... who the **** thought that was a good idea. If any other classes needed a phasewalk, that would be merc's.

[Faelandaea]

Not quite sure what a Merc - which is not a force user - would do with a force skill such as phase walk.

 

As for all the changes - I bet anything when everything goes live everyone figures out way to PvP their characters successfully regardless of class.

 

And I have read quite a few arguments about Devs and money/paychecks/etc. - it is true that from a financial point of view, SWTOR was aimed at being a PvE game with PvP being an added side-perk. PvE is where the money is and the Devs know this. I'll be honest - if I were the CEO in charge of running SWTOR, I'd probably phase out PvP altogether and keep this as a PvE game. Enough of the player base are simply Star Wars die-hards who want to simply immerse themselves in a Star Wars environment and could care less about PvP. So to be honest I think trying to add PvP to this game was a seriously bad idea to begin with.

 

Maybe even a compromise - keep PvP for the star-fighter stuff, since that is completely isolated and has no effect on the rest of the game, and phase out the PvP that does have an effect on PvE game-play.

 

Or, if they HAVE to keep both, then make skill trees separate, like what Rift and many other MMO games do - you have one set of skills balanced for PvP and one set of skills balanced for PvE. Why not? You guys already ave PvP gear - why not have specific PvP skills also? When you want to PvP, and you enter a PvP map or get flagged for PvP, your skills switch to PvP balance mode, and then when you are no longer flagged for PvP, you get your PvE skills back. Now THAT would be a viable solution to keep the PvP crowd and the PvE crowd away from each others necks.

 

The flames are going to come strong at me for having an opinion, but it IS a possible alternative solution that MIGHT (note I said might and not would, because unlike other people I am actually open minded) actually make more people happy.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Faelandaea

[Smuglebunny]

So far I have found the changes to the classes to be unbalanced and downright foolish.

 

Sorc gets moving barrier and a teleport that makes you immune to everything.

 

Merc gets 20m jump back and thats about it.

 

Warriors get a "dash"

 

Stealths get more teleports for some reason even though they are already invisible.

 

Its like some drunk person from the mountain folk was asked to think up stuff after playing the game one time and they just did it.

 

I main a sorc and a sage and I kinda dont want to play anymore. I will try out the changes when they go live but honestly it all sounds like crap so far.

 

I mean there is now a class that has 35m attacks a speed boost, a bubble, a super immunity bubble that you can move in, a 60m teleport that makes you immune to everything and still crazy burst.

 

mercs can jump back 20m before they die

 

With all this new mobility, have they changed any of the PVP maps, no.

[AshlaBoga]

So my heals get nerfed but I get Phase Walk and Force Barrier on the go?

 

Well, I'm sure I'll figure out ways to use the 2 aforementioned buffs to negate the healing nerfs in PvE.

But I feel like this will make me a bit OP in Reg Warzones.

[RAVM]

The change for Sins is absurd. Stealth detection abilities were always weak compared to the stealth they were supposed to counter, but now they're utterly useless. From 30m away a cloaked Sin can teleport right to you and attack immediately. Why the hell did they think that was a good idea for an already OP class?

 

A knowledge of the game and classes and some commons sense should have been enough for them to know these changes would be very unpopular.

 

Again, this combat team is awful.

Edited September 27, 2015 by RAVM

[vfreelancerv]

The change for Sins is absurd. Stealth detection abilities were always weak compared to the stealth they were supposed to counter, but now they're utterly useless. From 30m away a cloaked Sin can teleport right to you and attack immediately. Why the hell did they think that was a good idea for an already OP class?

 

A knowledge of the game and classes and some commons sense should have been enough for them to know these changes would be very unpopular.

 

Again, this combat team is awful.

 

The teleport will also give them 3 stacks of static charge? Are you kidding me?? A 30 meter stun, steath, phase walk, force speed, overload root, force cloak AND electrocute? Assassins will be near untouchable.

[Mubrak]

All hail our sorc overlords.

 

https://media.giphy.com/media/hokMyu1PAKfJK/giphy.gif

[Galothor]

This is the same crap that went on just before 3.0 was released.

 

Everybody was whining how OP sorcs would be and then solo Q (what half of you guys are whining about) was completely dominated by Sins and PTs.

 

And even in reg WZs the sins outperformed the sorcs by quite a lot.

Nowadays you guys are whining because you are not on the top of the damage leaderboard. Completely neglecting that almost all the damage listed for the sorcs is AoE DoT damage, while your damage is most likely Single Target Burst damage. So who is killing whom?

 

It so sad how so many people can be too stupid to properly read a table.

 

And the mobility part is simply a lie. Especially when you consider that Madness is DoT based and thus has to rely on kiting. If you can't kill a Madness sorc / Balance Sage in a 1on1 duel you are doing something very wrong. (snipers are partially excluded here because it will heavily depend on the terrain of the battleground). As I have pointed out before all the classes (especially melee) got tons of gap closers, immunities, speed buffs, and even some decent range attacks so that there should barely ever by a gap in between you and the sorc. Oh and it's all instant!

 

But hey, it's always easier to jump on the sorc-hater train instead of critizing yourself and work on your performance.

 

PS: You should also keep in mind that bubble + moving =/= bubble + casting!

[Excypher]

Can Hatred please have Death Field fixed, its so bad fighting Revan and having to cast it on the floor.

[Fordbird]

This is the same crap that went on just before 3.0 was released.

 

Everybody was whining how OP sorcs would be and then solo Q (what half of you guys are whining about) was completely dominated by Sins and PTs.

 

And even in reg WZs the sins outperformed the sorcs by quite a lot.

Nowadays you guys are whining because you are not on the top of the damage leaderboard. Completely neglecting that almost all the damage listed for the sorcs is AoE DoT damage, while your damage is most likely Single Target Burst damage. So who is killing whom?

 

It so sad how so many people can be too stupid to properly read a table.

 

And the mobility part is simply a lie. Especially when you consider that Madness is DoT based and thus has to rely on kiting. If you can't kill a Madness sorc / Balance Sage in a 1on1 duel you are doing something very wrong. (snipers are partially excluded here because it will heavily depend on the terrain of the battleground). As I have pointed out before all the classes (especially melee) got tons of gap closers, immunities, speed buffs, and even some decent range attacks so that there should barely ever by a gap in between you and the sorc. Oh and it's all instant!

 

But hey, it's always easier to jump on the sorc-hater train instead of critizing yourself and work on your performance.

 

PS: You should also keep in mind that bubble + moving =/= bubble + casting!

Who are dominating the leaderboards now? We are still in 3.x btw. In the beginning of 3.x were sorc/sage on the bottom rung of the ladder? Oh...it was Mercs marauders and snipers? Do you think changes are being made to equal the playing field a little? I sure don't. 60 m phase walk, mobile barrier vs a 20 meter reverse leap, nerfed hydrolic override, a 20 meter uncontrolled "dash", and a DCD reset button on a 3 min cd. Sound fair/even/balanced? People aren't qq'ing because sorcs are a good choice, we are complaining because they are one of the only choices while the rest of the AC's are getting boned.

Edited September 27, 2015 by Fordbird
Spelling

[DecRaan]

Couldn't agree more. People maining Sorcs will do everything to justify their current OP status saying it's not them but everyone else and it's a L2P issue. Bull.****.

 

I extend my invitation to these people too. Play a Merc. Play a Sniper. Play a Mara. Do a couple dozen solo arenas and regs and then come back and tell me how balanced the game is as of 3.3.x and how 4.0 will be better. The combat team will have to pull their heads out of their asses and realize they make no one happy. Veteran raiders couldn't care less about phase walk or walking bubble, while ranked players (not maining Sorcs) will tell you how pathetic these attempts at "balancing" are. Although they never said specifically that the game was meant to be balanced..

 

A couple of pages back I have expressed my views and concerns in length and I said I have faith in them, but it doesn't really matter since it's always just us steaming here, no dev treads here. Dump the bucket of crap on Friday and see what happens. Or not because they are doing an outstanding job ignoring their long-term paying customers.

 

Bioware is so damn luckly this is a Star Wars title, if it was any other franchise very few of us would have put up with their incompetence.

[Faelandaea]

I still think re-balancing is a bad idea. Just bloody make the skills separate already so that PvE skills and PvP skills are completely isolated.

 

PvP players should have no business using PvP skills in PvE, and vice versa. Make a game balance aimed at PvP and a game balance aimed at PvE and keep them bloody separate. Unless they do that, PvPers will ALWAYS ruin anything they try to give players in PvE.

[DecRaan]

Do you have any idea how complicated would it be? Not to mention they would probably dumb down both PVE and PVP for the sake of easier balancing. Healing and DPS can be both adjusted fairly well with Trauma in PVP. This thread is obviously aimed at PVP problems yet you keep commenting with no experience in the matter whatsoever.

 

As for all the changes - I bet anything when everything goes live everyone figures out way to PvP their characters successfully regardless of class.

 

Just to highlight one. It's not that easy as you imagine with your PVE-exclusive tunnel vision. And if we have separate PVP skills what happens on PVP servers? I get attacked during leveling in open world. Do I get to still attack the mobs with my PVP abilities? Can I bug out and use PVE stuff on the enemy? Rift is much simpler than SWTOR, they aren't even comparable.

 

Let me reiterate. Devs need to listen to feedback. Trust me, the game could be really close to balanced. But when Sorcs can both kite and do ranged dps with amazing defense, you have basic MMO problems. Every class needs to have pros and cons. Right now Sorcs have only pros. Mercs/Snipers and to a degree Maras have mostly cons. That's the heart of the problem.

 

If it was just a matter of L2P we would still have whiners but us more experienced players could tell them in good conscience that it takes time to learn the class but it's gonna be great later on. Right now even top ranked players can tell you their own class sucks balls (again, Mercs, Snipers, Maras, Lethality Operatives etc.).

 

So yeah, we won't "figure it out" and "every class can be equally good in PVP" is just not true.

Edited September 27, 2015 by DecRaan

[Master-Nala]

Couldn't agree more. People maining Sorcs will do everything to justify their current OP status saying it's not them but everyone else and it's a L2P issue. Bull.****.

 

Nope. I won't. I don't want Phase Walk. But let's be honest, most folks aren't going to be happy until Sorcs are in the same state as Mercs or worse.

 

I'm not saying Sorcs won't be very powerful. But better than Sins, Ops and PTs? Nope, not agreeing with that.

[Sarfux]

And finally Sages are godlike, as they should be. Jedi Consulars are the high end of the force users and should be god like. Awesome changes.

[RAVM]

I still think re-balancing is a bad idea. Just bloody make the skills separate already so that PvE skills and PvP skills are completely isolated.

 

PvP players should have no business using PvP skills in PvE, and vice versa. Make a game balance aimed at PvP and a game balance aimed at PvE and keep them bloody separate. Unless they do that, PvPers will ALWAYS ruin anything they try to give players in PvE.

 

Please just stop with this nonsense. First, they already do this to some extent. There is a typically a discipline that is better suited for PVP and less suited for high end PVE. For example, if you do PVP on a Sent, you will very likely use the Concentration spec because it's clearly designed for PVP. Second, there are already abilities that are different depending whether they are targeted at a player or a mob. Mezzes that last a minute on a mob last 8 seconds on a player.

 

Do they need to make things that are completely separate? No, they don't, and as someone else posted, it would get stupid and complicated in open world when being attacked by mobs and a player. Further, I doubt many people are interested in being forced to all of a sudden switch to completely different specs with different abilities because they are coming or going from a warzone.

 

None of these recent changes are needed for PVE (it's obvious they are designed more for players than mobs) and they're making a mess of PVP because they are giving some classes new abilities they don't need. In other words, a lot of the new stuff in 4.0 simply wasn't necessary at all, hence the complaints.

[realleaftea]

I agree with the common impression that the Sages // Sorcerers get way too many benefits.

 

Let's say, there wouldn't be any stun, slow or root effect. The range discrepancy would still exist. That means a melee character would take a lot of damage, before he would even be able to attack. Now there are three ways to negate this drawback:

 

• Use speed bonuses (or leap skills) to shorten the duration until a melee character can attack
  
• Root the ranged character to avoid that he can prolong the duration
  
• Allow the melee classes to mitigate the damage while he is still out of range
  

 

Sadly, BioWare forgot about the last option and rather chose to implement a lot of leap & teleport skills instead. A drastic choice. Efficient for sure, but it also made melee characters dependant on these effects.

 

And at this point, there is no whatsoever reason for ranged classes to get a speed bonus as well. 'Ganks' aren't a good justification, as both ranged & melee classes share the problem. A melee class is by far more easily ganked by multiple ranged classes (i.e. they all shoot at him).

 

Range however, becomes kind of obsolete this way as well. Adding push effects might have looked like another good solution, but they aren't. Once successful, they restore the original range inbalance (at least partly), so a momentary immunity against these effects becomes a necessity as well. Melee classes can then strike at least once or twice before they are pushed back again.

 

However, another big mistake was to add that many slow effects as well. Some allow for an continuous, uninterrupted effect (if repeated). And most of them make the range inbalances even worse. Because if you manage to slow a melee class, you didn't just kept him from attacking you, but also from applying a slow as well.

 

All in all, melee classes are easily screwed, because they have to depend on his skills to balance out the inherent advantages of other classes. And such a system is even more problematic in mass fights.

 

Speaking of which: The story doesn't end here!

BioWare also had the great idea to give ranged classes heal skills, including heal over time effects and those usable on the run. That's more than risky! Because healers are typically is full control how much effort they want to put into damage mitigation. If he starts out of range, he just needs to keep running and heal himself on the move. Anyone who dares to chase him has a hard time to catch up.

 

And it's getting even worse. Once an enemy learned how long it would take to take these ranged healers down (if ever), he will start looking for easier prey. But that puts the healer in an even more advanced position. If the opponent doesn't focus on him, they can easily spam their damage skills. If someone dares to attack, they prolongen the fight as long as possible until he ruined the game for the attacker as well (f.e. by luring him behind enemy lines where he becomes an easy kill).

 

And on top of all that, BioWare even dares to give one ranged healer a 100% damage reduction skill as well. That plays right into this broken part. Even if that character is surrounded by enemies, he still extended the fight long enough to give other teammates the chance to advance, to catch the buffs or balls, etc.

________________________________________________________

 

There was an example of a Juggernaut fighting a Sage (or Sorcerer) before. But let's redo this once more:

Jugg charges you, which not unly roots, interrupts and essentially stuns you but also gives them immunitiy to any CC. With this immunity they completely negate your stun bubble and there is basically nothing you can do about it.

Note, that the target isn't stunned and only rooted for 2s, which is basically a bit more than it takes his skills to cooldown. In addition, Force Charge only grants a 4s immunity vs. physics (push & pull) and movement-imparing effects, but not against other forms of CCs.

 

If a Juggernaut uses Force Charge, a Sage will probable respond with Force Stun, an instant Force Lift or if he's lucky a blinding effect from Kinetic Collapse. Since all these effects last for more than 2s (the duration of the root), it also allows the Sage to create a new gap and damaging the aggressor. Furthermore, Egress - a masterful utility that removes the root effect of Force Charge once Force Speed is activated - allows the Sage to escape freely.

 

And due to the fact that all the Juggernaut skills are all on a normal cooldown after he uses Force Charge, the Sage will most likely have the upper hand here and react more quickly. A sage should simply know when a Jugg will charge in and await it. Therefore, I honestly doubt that:

But wait. What does the average jugg do when you use force speed. He either stuns you of pushes you.

 

So let's have a look at this part:

Melees these days got so many immunities and speed buffs that it is literally impossible to kite them the way you desribe it.

Although the description isn't included in the quotation, It simply isn't true, especially for your Jugg-vs-Sage example. The only speed buff all Juggernauts share is from Endure Pain (via Through Power and usually only 10s every 60s). The Sage on contrast can slow via Force Slow / Telekinetic Throw and might even get another speed bonus. And whereas a Jugg. can root a only single opponent for 3s via Saber Throw, a Sage can root multiple foes for 5s via Force Wave.

 

So even without any other effects, it should be obvious that a Sage can easily negate most effects a Juggernaut can use to get and stay in melee range. And even if he doesn't, is stunned or pushed around, he can still rely on his heals to mitigate the effect (especially if he uses them while moving around erraticly).

 

And finally, let's point out some strategical aspects as well:

If a Sage is accompanied by some teammates, would you dare to charge? Because then, all of them could simply retreat a bit while shooting at you, killing you within seconds. And if you leap onto a lonely Sage and he uses Force Speed to fall back, how far would you go and chase him? How far would you separate yourself from your team?

 

All this should make it clear that whereas melee classes are typically stuck with their 'charge-in' tactics, a Sage is in full control of his defenses, the heals and a strategical positioning. So IMO, he has a clear advantage.

[vfreelancerv]

This is the same crap that went on just before 3.0 was released.

 

Everybody was whining how OP sorcs would be and then solo Q (what half of you guys are whining about) was completely dominated by Sins and PTs.

 

And even in reg WZs the sins outperformed the sorcs by quite a lot.

Nowadays you guys are whining because you are not on the top of the damage leaderboard. Completely neglecting that almost all the damage listed for the sorcs is AoE DoT damage, while your damage is most likely Single Target Burst damage. So who is killing whom?

 

It so sad how so many people can be too stupid to properly read a table.

 

And the mobility part is simply a lie. Especially when you consider that Madness is DoT based and thus has to rely on kiting. If you can't kill a Madness sorc / Balance Sage in a 1on1 duel you are doing something very wrong. (snipers are partially excluded here because it will heavily depend on the terrain of the battleground). As I have pointed out before all the classes (especially melee) got tons of gap closers, immunities, speed buffs, and even some decent range attacks so that there should barely ever by a gap in between you and the sorc. Oh and it's all instant!

 

But hey, it's always easier to jump on the sorc-hater train instead of critizing yourself and work on your performance.

 

PS: You should also keep in mind that bubble + moving =/= bubble + casting!

^^^ Support

[Raansu]

PvP players should have no business using PvP skills in PvE, and vice versa. Make a game balance aimed at PvP and a game balance aimed at PvE and keep them bloody separate. Unless they do that, PvPers will ALWAYS ruin anything they try to give players in PvE.

 

I love how PvE players always say this but they seem to never actually pay attention to patch notes. The MAJORITY of the time nerfs are due to pve not pvp. You wanna know why mercs still suck in pvp and BW doesn't know how to fix it? Because they are absolutely dominate in pve .

[Master-Nala]

I love how PvE players always say this but they seem to never actually pay attention to patch notes. The MAJORITY of the time nerfs are due to pve not pvp. You wanna know why mercs still suck in pvp and BW doesn't know how to fix it? Because they are absolutely dominate in pve .

 

To be fair, PvPers have the same blinders on because they don't realize how middling Sorcs are in PvE. As you like to say Sorcs have an answer for everything, but in PvE, that's not as important as being able to do massive ST damage.

[revial]

If there was anything remotely competitive or back-breaking about SWTOR pve, I might give some of the pve white knight supporters of these absurd changes some empathy, but there isn't anything remotely competitive about SWTOR pve. These changes seem-like many of the other class changes-to be primarily aimed at pvp, and are only "good" if a person has myopic vision and ignores the state of how the other classes work in pvp.

 

While it's easy to say classes like Mercs/Snipers/etc, should be further buffed, the reality is we've seen the upcoming proposed changes for classes, and it's clear that they are getting far less buffed than the most played class in ranked pvp. I'm not sure how anyone can deny it, and watching pve white knights who straight out say they don't pvp go on to say they're sure everyone will just learn to play their class with the new changes just makes me /eyeroll endlessly.

 

It's true that Sage/Sorc single target damage in pve isn't fantastic, but I don't think there are many people all too concerned about beating dps checks on the pve side of the field, and this added mobility to one of the most mobile classes just makes the class' domination of pvp more absurd. Nor do I see this added mobility/survivability doing much to change their single target pve damage, so that argument sure seems like a red herring to me.

Edited September 27, 2015 by revial

[Raansu]

To be fair, PvPers have the same blinders on because they don't realize how middling Sorcs are in PvE. As you like to say Sorcs have an answer for everything, but in PvE, that's not as important as being able to do massive ST damage.

 

Sorcs are averaging a parse of 5k. Mercs are parsing only slightly higher with 5.1 to 5.2. That's well within BW's 5% range so now sure what you're on about being middle of the road.

[Glower]

I mean there is now a class that has 35m attacks a speed boost, a bubble, a super immunity bubble that you can move in, a 60m teleport that makes you immune to everything and still crazy burst.

 

mercs can jump back 20m before they die

 

With all this new mobility, have they changed any of the PVP maps, no.

 

i lol'd, a very good comparison!

[Waferdanos]

Sorcs are averaging a parse of 5k. Mercs are parsing only slightly higher with 5.1 to 5.2. That's well within BW's 5% range so now sure what you're on about being middle of the road.

While comparing dummy parces of different classes/disciplines is arguably a mistake on it's own, what you are saying just not correct.

At this moment, 6 people among Sorc/Sage broke through 5k (Kumbell, who has posted log from closed KOTFE test server, does not count). And they did it, using Dread Master set bonus, which will most likely not work in 4.0.

Top 50 Mercs opens with 5.1+, not to tell top 5.

What people are trying to tell, is that Bounty Hunter/Trooper is the best choice in PvE, with best dps and utility, that allow player to just ignore some mechanics of boss fight. When some raid group managed to take down Revan on Hard Mode, first question is - how many bounty hunters?

[Faelandaea]

When some raid group managed to take down Revan on Hard Mode, first question is - how many bounty hunters?

 

Usually my first question is: "Okay who all joined? Let's group again and do another". I actually rarely notices classes. Either I have a good team or I don't.

 

I know - a bit off topic, but I had to digress there for convo so lemme get back on ...

 

In all 4 of the class changes thread, the same thing seems to be happening that happens with every major update. Someone reads a number here and there and think they are some crazy math genius, so they go to these forums and start freaking out, which causes other people to freak out and then the fire gets out of control. It's the same psychological concept as a panic when people of a town think their community is under attack by terrorists or something (when it was just firecrackers from someone;s leftover 4th of July celebration).

 

The same thing WILL happen in 4.0 that happens in every other major update of every other MMO ... eventually the people who detest change and are afraid of anything getting moved around on their precious hot-bar will learn to play their class, and the forums will slowly quiet down until the next big release.

 

There are a few changes happening in this update that I do not like - on paper. They look bad in the forum, but I have learned by experience to just wait and when everything goes live, to play it for myself and see if it is nearly as bad as people make it out to be or if it just looked bad on paper. Usually it turns out that it did just look bad on paper and I end up adapting to the class and successfully playing it very well - at least well enough for Raids and most other endgame content. I may not be perfect at it, but as long as I am having fun and the raid is not negatively effected by my play-style, we're okay. And my raid group IS pretty strict with watching parsers and tactics, letting people know where they are good and bad at, but they are positive about the critique and everyone learns from it and get better all around.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Faelandaea