Mercs getting a well-deserved nerf! ;(

[Araberen]

I put my thoughts here (2nd page) and in this post http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=8453268#post8453268

[Transcendent]

Second, are you forgetting that you have the best knockback in the game? Omnidirectional, pushes further than any other knockback in the game without an additional utility, and snares at the end so you can't just leap back? Yes I know it has a lengthy cool down; see point one.

 

How good is that knockback against the immunities the other classes have against it? By the time it is effective to use (i.e. their immunity has worn off) you've lost most of your health. Jump back 20m? Oh wait, they all have more gap closers. Kite? Yeah, more gap closers and you have HO/HtL on CD. Slow them? Well that works wonderfully right now vs one opponent while using Unload / Blazing Bolts doesn't it? Add into the mix HO / HtL on CD when you have 2 on you? Yeah we can see where this is going. Stun them? Back to immunities again. Root them with the one root you have while running away? It's worn off while you've managed to crawl 4m with all the slows roots on you.

 

You literally have 2 forms of avoiding slows, HO/HtL and Cure (which will clear two). Unless they're lowering the CD of Cure by 50% to compensate for the 50% increase in HO/HtL? Oh wait.

 

Hug a wall / pillar? That's fine, however if you're not moving around it fast enough, which you will not be, yeah we can see where this will end, right?

 

HO/HtL with or without the new ability is one of the primary abilities in the toolbox. It's not as though they've given us stun immunity added to it to justify the increase in the CD by 50% I wouldn't even be complaining if they had done that.

 

Nonsensical change made to an ability, by developers who don't seem to have much of an idea about their game, or simply don't give a flying **** about Mercs / Mandos.

[Bonzenaattori]

20M gap skill with FULL immunity aftercast

Grav round = 6 second slow

Boltstorm while moving + Slow

 

 

Mercs = nerfed...

 

Uhhh okay, apparently you got nerfed

[Transcendent]

20M gap skill with FULL immunity aftercast

Grav round = 6 second slow

Boltstorm while moving + Slow

 

 

Mercs = nerfed...

 

Uhhh okay, apparently you got nerfed

 

So what utility are you giving up in Tier one, and what are you giving up in Tier 3? Hmmm?

 

Utility

Tier 1 - Skillful

 

New Utility: Adhesive Supplements/Sticky Mods! Power Shot/Charged Bolts and Tracer Missile/Grav Round slow their target by 40% for 6 seconds.

 

Tier 2 - Masterful

 

New Utility: Supercharged Defense! Activating Supercharged Gas/Cell increases the Merc's/Commando's defense chance by 15% for 10 seconds (affects melee, ranged, Force, and tech attacks)

 

Tier 3 - Heroic

 

New Utility: Smoke Screen! Rocket Out/Propulsion Round generates a Smoke Screen when used, keeping you from being leapt to or pulled and making you immune to interrupts and ability activation pushback for the next 4 seconds.

[Jherad]

Tier 3 has 2 mandatory picks for any competitive (non regs) PvP, namely Thrill of the Hunt (Blazing Bolts on the move), and Stabilized Armor (30% DR on stun). If you give up either of those for immunity after disengage, you're going to be dead long before you get to use it.

 

Tier 1 for the snare is easier, you can give up Boresights or whatever. But that's the thing - Ops/Snipers have extra snares in their picks too from 4.0, and it's probable that many will take them. Right now, you spend most of your time snared in arenas - if the currently released notes are anything to go by, they'll be even MORE prevalent. Which makes the disengage leap-back ability completely useless.

 

Of course, some classes (not mercs) are getting a heap more CC immunity in 4.0, so that's a double whammy on the nerf of hydraulic overrides.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Jherad

[SlightlySychotic]

I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.

 

Try again later, when you're not snared or rooted.

 

The same utility that provides leap and pull immunity also allows it to be used while your movement is impaired. Again, if you don't want take that utility, fine; makes my life just that much easier. Me? I would take that utility and unload while moving and learn how to move my feet.

[Transcendent]

The same utility that provides leap and pull immunity also allows it to be used while your movement is impaired.

 

I must be reading it wrong then. Where does it say it can be activated while my movement is hindered by a root or electronet?

[Lalainnia]

I must be reading it wrong then. Where does it say it can be activated while my movement is hindered by a root or electronet?

 

That's because it doesn't

[Floplag]

There was ZERO reason to add the HO nerf, period, its insulting to us to give and take away at the same time considering our current state.

For anyone using current skills to justify this nonsense, seriously ****, they dont do anything now, you know that, we know that, you still target us like the free kills we are.

This is a complete joke in light of the abilities other classes are getting, and our leap has mediocre at best range.

Mercs will be no better in pvp, and i dont know if ill be back for any pvp at this point.

[MusicRider]

But 9/10 play Balance because TK is trash, so that's irrelevant.

 

9/10 play balance in ranked, tk is fine for wzs and team ranked. But since you are brining this up, balance is worse at the moment than TK in terms of mobility.

[MusicRider]

On topic, IMO the new ability is pretty great, the implementation might not be the best one, and I am referring in particular that it requires a T3 utility to make the most of it. It might be worth maybe giving some suggestions on how it can actually satisfy the mando/merc community. For example, the T3 utility should be in T2 or T1. There might be others.

[Transcendent]

On topic, IMO the new ability is pretty great, the implementation might not be the best one, and I am referring in particular that it requires a T3 utility to make the most of it. It might be worth maybe giving some suggestions on how it can actually satisfy the mando/merc community. For example, the T3 utility should be in T2 or T1. There might be others.

 

To be quite honest, there shouldn't even be a utility tied to it, it should be baseline that we can't be leapt to or pulled while using it. The extra bits about 4 seconds of casting immunity, while I can see the purpose of them, aren't needed if they didn't gut the CD on HO / HtL so drastically. It would actually mean we could kite, instead of attempting to.

 

In light of the abilities other classes are gaining, I see absolutely no reason why I would PvP on a Merc / Mando in 4.0. I like to kite, but it's not going to be happening on a Merc / Mando.

[KashyyykForest]

On topic, IMO the new ability is pretty great, the implementation might not be the best one, and I am referring in particular that it requires a T3 utility to make the most of it. It might be worth maybe giving some suggestions on how it can actually satisfy the mando/merc community. For example, the T3 utility should be in T2 or T1. There might be others.

 

Yeah definitely think some of the T3 utilities should be lower.

 

Also I wouldn't mind seeing all merc/commando specs get pyro pt version of kolto overload with 30% damage reduction along with the cd reduction.

[jedcjedcjedc]

Tbh, I actually see a lot of Lightning/TK Sorcs on JC.

[MusicRider]

Yeah definitely think some of the T3 utilities should be lower.

 

Also I wouldn't mind seeing all merc/commando specs get pyro pt version of kolto overload with 30% damage reduction along with the cd reduction.

 

That was my key suggestion in another thread in the mandos/mercs forum. I was using KO with the damage reduction shield it worked pretty well in terms of surviving focus, my issue and point is that it shouldn't not be the case that both have to be burned, but attaching a damage reduction to KO things would be much different. And also has its uniqueness, i.e. not making a clone of sorc abilities.

[MusicRider]

To be quite honest, there shouldn't even be a utility tied to it, it should be baseline that we can't be leapt to or pulled while using it. The extra bits about 4 seconds of casting immunity, while I can see the purpose of them, aren't needed if they didn't gut the CD on HO / HtL so drastically. It would actually mean we could kite, instead of attempting to.

 

In light of the abilities other classes are gaining, I see absolutely no reason why I would PvP on a Merc / Mando in 4.0. I like to kite, but it's not going to be happening on a Merc / Mando.

 

I also think that leap immunity for n secs should be baseline, and don't see the benefit of interrupt immunity. The new ability could be further buffed with a Tx utility that adds something to it. Like reduces cd, gives an extra 5-10m distance, extends leap immunity by 2s, can be used while CCed, gives interrupt immunity for 4s, etc.

[Glower]

To be quite honest, there shouldn't even be a utility tied to it, it should be baseline that we can't be leapt to or pulled while using it.

 

^agree, just look at the roll for example. It is a very good by itself, both for snipers and operatives. Good old standalone ability. And it's not like merc can afford 1-2 more free utility points.

 

 

But hey!

Bounty Hunters/Troopers will no longer rely so heavily on Hydraulic Overrides/Hold the Line for their mobility needs.

Sure if you are dead you can't rely on it...

Edited September 21, 2015 by Glower

[Zoom_VI]

I'm pretty sure the reason HTL is getting nerfed is just so they can justify giving PT's Jet Charge.

 

Because if HTL stayed the same Jet Charge would be almost completely worthless, outside of extremely niche uses.

[DariusCalera]

I'm pretty sure the reason HTL is getting nerfed is just so they can justify giving PT's Jet Charge.

 

Because if HTL stayed the same Jet Charge would be almost completely worthless, outside of extremely niche uses.

 

So, basically, they don't really understand the differences between the classes and what each one needs in order to be successful.

[ForceWelder]

What gets me is that this is an defense I really don't see myself using outside of a ultra gold elite boss. This is really intended as a PVP fix.

 

But giving us yet another weak defense when we already have a very large number of weak defenses doesn't help us. If anything it hinders us.

 

What we need is an no %$%# focus break.

 

Merc / Mando's problems are that they are as good as dead after getting hit with back to back stuns. And with crap for stealth detection, they are coming and the commando or merc won't even see them coming. So you can't prep your defenses.

 

So if you get stunned, what do you do? Most eat the 4 seconds and save their CC break for the second stun. Then you have a hard decision to make. Do you pop your shield first in the hopes you get it off before two or three other players attempt to stun you again?

 

Do you use your decoy? Do you pop your leap back? Do you use your knockback to try to get them off of you for a second? Try to pop your quick heal and warzone health pack just to get less than 10k health back?

 

That is a lot of abilities to access just to stay in the fight for a couple of seconds more. And we aren't even talking about fighting back yet. As a merc / mando you spend your entire match usually playing defense / self preservation.

 

The merc / mando class literally has no breathing room at all when playing DPS in a 4 v 4. You can't avoid the initial focus without stealth, you can see the stealth coming due to a very weak stealth detection, and when you get slammed, there is no way to counter it well if the 20 gazillion weak defenses you have at your disposal.

 

Defenses that were designed with PVE in mind when you can take the most advantage of your range. These defenses are intended to be used only after you have had a chance to beat on a target(s) from afar. And then allow you to gain some breathing space to beat on them some more from afar.

 

but when your opponents bypass your range, get the first blow in with a stun, throw in multiple players focusing on you once you are stunned, you are dead.

 

In order to be effective in death match, merc / mando's need to break this cycle. Either (a) better stealth detection, (B) better stun defense, or © some type of focus break when either of the other two failed. Giving us a 20 meter leap back does none of the three.

Edited September 21, 2015 by ForceWelder

[TUXs]

What gets me is that this is an defense I really don't see myself using outside of a ultra gold elite boss. This is really intended as a PVP fix.

 

But giving us yet another weak defense when we already have a very large number of weak defenses doesn't help us. If anything it hinders us.

 

What we need is an no %$%# focus break.

 

Merc / Mando's problems are that they are as good as dead after getting hit with back to back stuns. And with crap for stealth detection, they are coming and the commando or merc won't even see them coming. So you can't prep your defenses.

 

So if you get stunned, what do you do? Most eat the 4 seconds and save their CC break for the second stun. Then you have a hard decision to make. Do you pop your shield first in the hopes you get it off before two or three other players attempt to stun you again?

 

Do you use your decoy? Do you pop your leap back? Do you use your knockback to try to get them off of you for a second? Try to pop your quick heal and warzone health pack just to get less than 10k health back?

 

That is a lot of abilities to access just to stay in the fight for a couple of seconds more. And we aren't even talking about fighting back yet. As a merc / mando you spend your entire match usually playing defense / self preservation.

 

The merc / mando class literally has no breathing room at all when playing DPS in a 4 v 4. You can't avoid the initial focus without stealth, you can see the stealth coming due to a very weak stealth detection, and when you get slammed, there is no way to counter it well if the 20 gazillion weak defenses you have at your disposal.

 

Defenses that were designed with PVE in mind when you can take the most advantage of your range. These defenses are intended to be used only after you have had a chance to beat on a target(s) from afar. And then allow you to gain some breathing space to beat on them some more from afar.

 

but when your opponents bypass your range, get the first blow in with a stun, throw in multiple players focusing on you once you are stunned, you are dead.

 

In order to be effective in death match, merc / mando's need to break this cycle. Either (a) better stealth detection, (B) better stun defense, or © some type of focus break when either of the other two failed.

Very well said. Weak DCD on top of more weak DCD's. It's getting to the point that it's just ******* absurd. This is pathetic. Bioware clearly has no understanding of how the Merc/Mando class plays in real PvP.

 

I'm EXTREMELY frustrated by this stupidity.

[foxmob]

You don't need htl to move While firing sure htl can keep you being able to move in some circumstances but forced March isn't bound by htl at all.

Forced march gives you mobility regardless of wether htl is on cooldown or not.

 

hmm. no.

 

in other news, 20s cd for the "rocket roll." 45s on HO. let's do the math here: you have HO available every third time you try to "rocket roll," but you need HO active for the roll to work (snares and roots). I mean...ugh. really? it's like op roll with a much longer cd and no dmg reduction. gee. thanks. totally worth the HO sacrifice. I don't see this working out well. but w/e. pretty much given up on the game.

[foxmob]

Oh FFS.

 

You actually *are* facetanking melee aren't you. Of course you have other defensive options, but those other options are pretty much filler until HTL is off cooldown. Right now, you have 20 seconds of downtime when HTL is unavailable (assuming you've taken torque boosters, as most do) - with root, kb and stuns you can survive 20 seconds. 35 seconds is a different matter - if a meleer can't kill you, he's garbage.

 

Again, which server are you on? I really want to see all these terrible meleers you're apparently fighting that don't need kiting.

 

Enjoy mashing that disengage as the other player roots/snares you and laughs because your HTL is still on cooldown.

 

I'd say my dcds are filler until chaff comes off cd (in arsenal). but I use HO soooo much more b/c it does so much more. it's our only (minor) speed buff. it's the first or second key I hit in pretty much any fight.

[ForceWelder]

Very well said. Weak DCD on top of more weak DCD's. It's getting to the point that it's just ******* absurd. This is pathetic. Bioware clearly has no understanding of how the Merc/Mando class plays in real PvP.

 

I'm EXTREMELY frustrated by this stupidity.

 

I'd be happy with some decent stealth detection. Give us a scan with the range of the Sage's earthquake and I can buy myself a critical second or two to prep my defenses. At the very least I could then pop my shield so that when the stun does come I can shake off a better percentage of the damage.

 

With a shield up, I might even not use my CC breaker at all as the shield would last through two back to back stuns. And combined, with my passive stun defense, means I actually might walk away with at least 30 - 40% of my health intact. All said, this one change might increase the class's survivability by a few seconds more than it is now. So at least it turns into an even trade.

 

Still not great, but it does give you a fighting chance.

[foxmob]

A

Second, are you forgetting that you have the best knockback in the game? Omnidirectional, pushes further than any other knockback in the game without an additional utility, and snares at the end so you can't just leap back? Yes I know it has a lengthy cool down; see point one.

 

no. there's no hinder on it. the hinder is BY FAR more important than omnidirectional. the omnidirectionl thing means nothing to a good player. he doesn't need it. it's just QoL