nerf underlurker in story mode already

[emeraldon]

They do not need to nerf the Underlurker, they need to get the mechanics work 100% of the time.

 

Can you say that the Underlurker has flawless mechanics that works every time you fight him?

 

So far I have not heard from anyone that takes down Underlurker several times a week that it was a perfect (not having to jump to update client and the server for example), flawless, bugfree victory.

 

I can, yes. After they applied the latest fix some months ago, we haven't had a single issue at all. Not in SM or HM, not on my main or my alts. The only times we take unecessary damage from debris or cross is when someone fails to move fast enough. It might be lag, or it might be that they just derped a second too long before moving. If everyone is in their place, aka not under rocks or at the wrong arm, it goes smoothly every single time.

Edited May 26, 2015 by emeraldon

[onegoldpls]

Heaven forbid we have to use mechanics...if you want super easy for super easy loot for your special binkies then go play Warcraft.

 

I dropped it month ago, because blizzard returned retarded 20 ppl format for end game and our mythic guild simply couldn't find players to play in summer. That's what they got for making game harder http://www.businessinsider.com/world-of-warcraft-lost-three-million-subscribers-in-three-months-2015-5

 

Warcraft mechanics are much harder and require much more skill than in swtor, but even mythic raids doesn't give such pain in the *** like underlurker

[Icestar]

I can, yes. After they applied the latest fix some months ago, we haven't had a single issue at all. Not in SM or HM, not on my main or my alts. The only times we take unecessary damage from debris or cross is when someone fails to move fast enough. It might be lag, or it might be that they just derped a second too long before moving. If everyone is in their place, aka not under rocks or at the wrong arm, it goes smoothly every single time.

 

Yeah, you guys that do this in SM and HM and probably when they recycle it to NiM will have a advantage with voice comms and high end gear. I hope they recycle Underlurker NiM into a virtually impossible boss that will take a year to kill, then you can get a real challenge.

 

But for now when it comes to SM where PUGs play and use groupinder, I am sure Biowares statistics show that something is very, very wrong. Time will tell if we get a adjustment in the patchnotes or not, but until then threads and posts like this will keep comming.

[Torvai]

I can, yes. After they applied the latest fix some months ago, we haven't had a single issue at all. Not in SM or HM, not on my main or my alts. The only times we take unecessary damage from debris or cross is when someone fails to move fast enough. It might be lag, or it might be that they just derped a second too long before moving. If everyone is in their place, aka not under rocks or at the wrong arm, it goes smoothly every single time.

 

This. You can not tell if everybody really is in the right place. That's the problem with it. If the cross does damage, somebody screwed up. But nobody can check whose fault it was, cause everybody will say "I was in the right spot".

 

That's why I said, they need to tune down the cross check. Instead of all 8/16 needing to be in the right place, the cross should simply check if there is at least 1 on every side. If yes, no damage. Problem solved, bads who can't tell left from right can be carried again by those who can.

 

And the part about not hiding behind the rocks, so what? Rage storm is a complete joke on SM. You can heal through it if it's neccessary.

[DomiSotto]

Other than that try to be a better player yourself: use binds, don't be a clicker or you will miss half the mechanics or pull terrible numbers. Read your tooltips. Use augments. Read some kind of guide about correct gearing stats. Practice your dps on a dummy or healing in a flashpoint (first tactical then HM). All of that will take like several hours, or a few days if you play an hour a day...

 

Well, I did all that, and in addition I play warzones to practice my classes, but I am not a good player, have never been, even though I keybind, have rotations memorized and all that normal beginner advice.

 

Movement and fog of war confuse me, I find it hard to 'see' everything and watch everything that needs to be watched at all times. The cross was basically unattainable for me. By the time I started moving towards it, it was all over or, yes, I could not tell left from right, or 'see' the mark on the leader of my group. I think a good clear sound alert would have helped on SM to cope with the visual overload.

 

I am trying to do the early ops in the game, but stuff like cross, Bulo or Brontes fight with a myriad things going on... I am not sure how you can learn that on a dummy or in a tactical. And the only way I managed to get into an HM L60 was with a tank friend who queued with me.

 

Someone said in this thread it's easy to stop being bad. I'd like to. I am all ears. So, what's the way?

 

EDIT: I have no opinion on nerfing the UL. fwiw, I thought Brontes was just as crazy, and some of the puzzles just as overwhelming (I have never seen DF HM puzzle done, but really, I did not understand what was required to keep the doors opened even in SM DF).

Edited May 26, 2015 by DomiSotto

[thewitchdoctor]

Let me correct you there, the cross phase works when the server thinks the players are at the correct spots. That is why players have to jump to sync the client and server so no big disasters happen. This is not always possible due to shortage of time or something unexpected happens, and boom once again the server thinks that the player is in the wrong spot. This is also needed to do when player hide behind rocks since the client can think that the player has arrived but the server thinks that the player is on its way and let the hiding fail.

 

Here we have a VERY interesting aspect, what about those with computers that does not update fast enough to be able to choose where to go or to be very selective where to hide. This OPS is not only very demanding when it comes to computer specification it is also very demanding regarding latency. In this case those with low ping and fast computers gets a advantage, over those with fps that tries to find closests hidingspot possible to not die completely. Minimum specc regarding this game is a joke but I guess anyone that tries to run this game in ToS knows that already.

 

I just wanted to chime in to say that while there is certainly an issue with SWTOR's net coding, and it is a shame so much of 3.0 is dependent upon it, but it isn't 'fatal.'

 

I main a mDPS. I am a Yank ex-pat living in Australia now (and before that the UK) and I've been on Shadowlands since Shadowlands was born. I routinely have the pleasure of a 225-240ms ping. And I can do my share of DPS and make it behind rocks and into the cross. (And I am not a pro by any stretch.)

 

Anyways, my point is: latency is a factor but I don't think it is necessarily as damning as it sometimes made out to be. (And I am not saying you are).

 

EDIT: I hated UL when we were learning it, but now, I find it one of the more fun fights. Its a shame that durkah-der and Revan after him are such a joke.

Edited May 26, 2015 by thewitchdoctor

[jauvtus]

I'll tell you guys the ultimate secret: all of the raid hides behind 1 rock (during Collapse, not after it....) BUT the 1 tank hides behind a different rock far away. After Rage Storm UL will jump on the raid then will start walking to the tank. When he is walking, he is not starting Devastation channel. You will have tons of time to get in your positions this way also much time to dps the boss. Yeah, you need to move, I'm sorry that the game doesn't teleport you where you should be, neither pull a laughable 2,5k dps instead of you

[BobFredJohn]

Someone said in this thread it's easy to stop being bad. I'd like to. I am all ears. So, what's the way?

 

The way I stopped being bad was to join a guild and ask questions. Of course dont just ask for invite then flood guild chat with every single question but just bring them up when the guild chat happens to wonder over to that topic (or relatively near for a sensible seg-way). For example when I learnt about modding:

 

I was running round with my lvl 16 sniper in blue stuff, guild chat was comparing a couple of orange body pieces someone was linking and asking which looked better. I chose that moment to mention I dont know use oranges because the stats are lower. Someone mentioned they need to be modded, asked me to come to fleet and they would give me an orange sniper rifle and show me what to do.

 

I went there, they gave me a rifle, showed me where the planetary comms vendors were, mentioned different stat priority (100% accuracy on endgame dps, mit on tanks etc) and I linked the mods I had brought to double check. I then asked where the mod station was and they pointed out I dont need it for modding so I put the mods in, compared stats to my blues and went to find more oranges, modded them and had some nice gear (for a lvl 16 with first toon that was nice gear).

 

The way to stop being bad is:

1. completely remove ego
   
2. ask for advice
   
3. ignore elitists who say they wont tell you
   
4. ask someone else
   
5. eventually get someone who explains it
   
6. listen to what they say
   
7. ask questions about what they say until you understand
   

 

The problem is quite afew people cant get past step 1, for example people who go into HM rakata as a healer and dont cleanse the stun, then tell everybody they "have done this mission 14 times today" and when their achievements are checked showing they have never done it before tell people to shut up and pull and refuse to cleanse regardless of what anybody in the group says. As long as you listen to the advice you ask for there are no problems at all unless the person you ask is elitist and kicks you for not knowing, but thats not your fault its theirs. The only reason someone would want you to know everything blindfolded is because they cant do it so need you to carry them.

[Shwarzchild]

Ice:

 

Inevitably there will be two sides to this "nerf unerlurker" coin discussion. Just because I know you and I will have divergent view points doesn't mean we can't have a constructive debate. And you're most likely right, I am primarily a raider in this game. It's the thing that keeps me so into everything. It makes me want to throw money at Bioware without a care. I wouldn't say that I represent boss achievement crowd, but more so the crowd that tries hardmode content, but ends up in story mode content more, or older level content for hardmodes and nightmares. I'm not going to set any world firsts, and I'm not going to be 10/10 any time soon. I'm stuck at 3/10 cause my raid team needs to be rebuilt (which granted I wish would change, but progression raid team slots and progression players just don't fall off trees). I'd like to think I represent (if I can use a baseball reference) Double A and Triple A level guys who love raiding, have fun with it, like the challenge, just haven't gotten much of a chance to get into the hardmode content as well as those other players where hardmode content just isn't there bag, but they still want a challenge, and think story mode is a great fit for them as is.

 

The problem here with the simplistic notion of "well he's blocking the enjoyment of those who just want to see Revan" is that any boss is a road block if the player can't meet the base level requirements for the encounter. You could replace Underlurker with Sword Squad, or Bulo, or Corruptor Zero, or Operator IX, Stormcaller and Firebrand etc. What's unfortunate is that some players, based on skill as they either just aren't very good which is fine, or refuse to learn which is not fine, won't be able to clear this new content until we have 222 gear sets where the gear takes over for them. I don't think they represent the majority of the raiding community. Basically in my mind the call to nerf content becomes this selfish action where it's one person saying that their fun should take precedent over someone else's version.

 

I'm actually very fearful of this constant call to make content easier, and easier, and easier. Now I don't think the raiding community is huge in this game, and to that I have no idea the numbers. Even so, there needs to be a balance in story mode for those people who don't really want to progress to hard mode, and those who "just want to have fun", and those who want to use storymode as a spring board to hard mode progression. If we had storymode, normal mode, hard mode, nightmare mode, sure the discussion could be a totally different one. But, since we don't have that distinction present we have to maintain balance. Sometimes that means that the super casual will have to wait to do something, or get lucky and find a group that's really good while the content is still the most relevant end game content.. Is it the most fair thing ever? Not really, and I get their frustration. I also wish they'd understand mine instead of simply saying "go away you elitist bastard". When really I'm not being elitist, I'm just trying to convey that hey we can be on the same playing field here if that player would just do a little more for themselves.

 

You are right though, we don't have current info on ToS and the clear rates and without that we're kind of spit balling in the dark here. Overall though, the balance is what's key to it all. I personally think that UL is completely fine difficulty wise as is in its current form. Some others do not. If it were possible to grab them and run them through it to see where they are messing up, if they are messing up, then man I'd love to do that. I suspect it's not so much their computer screwing them over, but rather their using that excuse (and in some cases it is valid) to cover for their inefficiencies because they don't like the idea that they can improve.

 

Also...regarding the computer thing/ bugging. That's a totally separate issue in my mind. I don't equate technical issues with difficulty issues. The technical issues are unfortunate, and even though I don't experience them ever I'm sure some do, and I've seen a guild member have problems before where the cross showed up in the wrong place for her. So that's more technical, and that's not my area of interest. Nerfing to me has everything to do with difficulty ie damage output, boss health, etc. In it's current form the actual difficulty is very low.

[benficakungfu]

No just no, you ppl already ruined hm fps ruined ravagers and ruined temple. Just stop its not fun to play asleep.

[FerkWork]

No just no, you ppl already ruined hm fps ruined ravagers and ruined temple. Just stop its not fun to play asleep.

 

Ruined? Lol

[Halinalle]

No just no, you ppl already ruined hm fps ruined ravagers and ruined temple. Just stop its not fun to play asleep.

 

I just got killed by adds in first boss fight in Blood Hunt. Group disbanded.

True, it wasn't typical "group disbanded before zoning in" situation but does it really matter.

 

It was most likely because I'm undergeared.

[Shwarzchild]

I just got killed by adds in first boss fight in Blood Hunt. Group disbanded.

True, it wasn't typical "group disbanded before zoning in" situation but does it really matter.

 

It was most likely because I'm undergeared.

 

Hal...

 

It's time to drop the under geared thing. It really is. Is it that you just enjoy thinking you're under geared therefore the under dog or something similar to that? Are you trolling us at this point? Also. Blood Hunt isn't what we were discussing. We're talking about the operations, and specifically the Underlurker.

[Halinalle]

Hal...

 

It's time to drop the under geared thing. It really is. Is it that you just enjoy thinking you're under geared therefore the under dog or something similar to that? Are you trolling us at this point? Also. Blood Hunt isn't what we were discussing. We're talking about the operations, and specifically the Underlurker.

 

First of all, Ben mentioned "you ruined HM FPs".

 

What other explanation you have for group wiping at the first boss of Blood Hunt? Group member's HP varied from 44k to my 48k. I get killed by two adds because I try to play my role properly by killing adds.

 

Sorry, I forgot to mention that tank Guarded healer.

 

Lurker is still a joke:

(and that's before the nerf...) Edited May 26, 2015 by Halinalle

[onegoldpls]

Ok, I start again.

First group, everyone with achievement 186-198 geared, no one has below 50k hp with buff.

Walkers died instantly, 5 wipes on lurker, second or third cross always fail, two or one dps always dead for no reason. i'm pulling 8.5k hps like crazy. Group has never full hp. Tank left, group has disbanded.

Probably won't find any more groups until daily ToS.

Edited May 26, 2015 by onegoldpls

[AndoEyrune]

Sorry... "Elitist" player here. This fight has no reason to be nerfed further than it is. It is much, much more easy than it needs to be atm. All people need to do are learn their rotation, stay out of stupid, and learn left from right and it's extremely easy. I've cleared the fight on my mara with a mix of 180 and 186 vendor gear and one shot it without dying. Edited May 26, 2015 by AndoEyrune

[Shwarzchild]

First of all, Ben mentioned "you ruined HM FPs".

 

What other explanation you have for group wiping at the first boss of Blood Hunt? Group member's HP varied from 44k to my 48k. I get killed by two adds because I try to play my role properly by killing adds.

 

Sorry, I forgot to mention that tank Guarded healer.

 

Lurker is still a joke:

(and that's before the nerf...)

 

The explanation is simple: it's player skill. The dps aren't focusing the same add, and they're not pulling minimum amounts of dps, or they're standing in blue circles when they can avoid them. Or they're standing in electro nets when they can avoid them. Or the healer isn't cleansing the tank. There will inevitably be groups where you fail on a "harder" encounter. I don't agree with Ben that hardmode flashpoints are ruined. I think they're fine the way they are.

[Dark_Mithrandir]

Ok, I start again.

First group, everyone with achievement 186-198 geared, no one has below 50k hp with buff.

Walkers died instantly, 5 wipes on lurker, second or third cross always fail, two or one dps always dead for no reason. i'm pulling 8.5k hps like crazy. Group has never full hp. Tank left, group has disbanded.

Probably won't find any more groups until daily ToS.

 

You can be and do good but HPS alone is not very good info at all.

 

The only thing HPS told me is that you're playing probably scoundrel/operative heals as that class is able to pull insane hps numbers without actually doing anything special. I am wrong?

In any case the group was obviously bad as that fight is solohealable

Edited May 26, 2015 by Dark_Mithrandir

[Icestar]

Ice:

 

Inevitably there will be two sides to this "nerf unerlurker" coin discussion. Just because I know you and I will have divergent view points doesn't mean we can't have a constructive debate.

 

I agree, this topic is one that I would very much like to discuss over a pint in a nice bar then here on the forum. I thankyou Shwarzchild for your constructive opinions regarding Underlurker, while we still do not agree on everything I understand more what you mean and I respect your opinion. I am focusing specifically on the SM version, where according to me all geared players should have a good time enjoying content. A happy customer is a spending customer. Not all players aim to go to the HM level, they simply want to have a good time, it is not always like that SM is a bridge to HM or beyond. I have personally no interest in HM, it is not because I can not do it it is simply because I have other things to attend to in real life that preceeds digging into HM strats, tactics and gear.

 

You are right though, we don't have current info on ToS and the clear rates and without that we're kind of spit balling in the dark here. Overall though, the balance is what's key to it all. I personally think that UL is completely fine difficulty wise as is in its current form.

 

Yes, we do not have the data for the Underlurker other then some DEV said ages ago that ToS was the least played OPS, so they selected Ravagers instead for it but look how that bugged out.

 

I am actually not asking for a nerf for the Underlurker, I am asking for ways so that the Underlurker mechanics works or be a bit more forgiving since there are things in motion then pure skill. FPS, computersetup and Latency being three factors.

 

Last night I did Underlurker and we did not get the cross right eventhough we all were in place. PUG team gave up after two tries claiming no need to do a bugged boss.

 

Also...regarding the computer thing/ bugging. That's a totally separate issue in my mind. I don't equate technical issues with difficulty issues. The technical issues are unfortunate, and even though I don't experience them ever I'm sure some do, and I've seen a guild member have problems before where the cross showed up in the wrong place for her. So that's more technical, and that's not my area of interest. Nerfing to me has everything to do with difficulty ie damage output, boss health, etc. In it's current form the actual difficulty is very low.

 

I am sure that if they actually test Underlurker once more with their test team they would find interesting results. Ater all they released a boss on the market that skyrocketed with threads regarding it being broken.

 

They said something abut making all bosses melee friendly, perhaps we will see some big change with the Underlurker then. I want the boss to be fun and challenging, not a showstopper because it pulls up some bug out of it sleeve and whipes the raid.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Icestar

[benficakungfu]

Ruined? Lol

 

Best examples are blood hunt and sword squadron .. Ye ruined as in not challenging.. Boring..

[davidp_newton]

First of all, Ben mentioned "you ruined HM FPs".

 

What other explanation you have for group wiping at the first boss of Blood Hunt? Group member's HP varied from 44k to my 48k. I get killed by two adds because I try to play my role properly by killing adds.

 

Sorry, I forgot to mention that tank Guarded healer.

 

Erm L2P and gear up a bit more? I'm sorry to say that with Blood Hunt it really is that simple. That first boss has been toned down, but it is still pretty tough for a FP boss and probably still harder than Underlurker as well. I've killed it once before nerf and once after nerf. Both times I was pulling over 3 k DPS during the fight. The second time the nerf really showed up because doing that much DPS allowed me to almost single-handedly kill both the Mandalorian adds that spawn. The first time I was doing that much DPS and I would have been nowhere near killing both adds.

 

To successfully attempt the first boss of Blood Hunt HM with the "recommended" gear you have to be an exceptionally good player. Fully augmented decent rating 186 gear with a few rating 192 pieces will allow it to be a bit of a challenge but achievable by a more average player. It is also important to note that although looking at health pools will give you a general idea of someone's gear it will not allow you to properly, fully judge their gear.

 

If a DPS or healer does not have proper, fully optimised Ziost enhancements or better by now then they are not a serious player in the game with that character. If they have rating 192 or rating 198 comms gear enhancements in preference to those Ziost enhancements then they may well be suffering from a serious case of noob-itis. The rating 198 enhancements will bump someone's health pool up a great deal compared to the rating 190 enhancements but will mean that they will do vastly inferior DPS or HPS.

 

The fact that your tank guarded the healer right from the get-go also suggests a less-than-competent tank which will again not help.

[onegoldpls]

You can be and do good but HPS alone is not very good info at all.

 

The only thing HPS told me is that you're playing probably scoundrel/operative heals as that class is able to pull insane hps numbers without actually doing anything special. I am wrong?

In any case the group was obviously bad as that fight is solohealable

 

yes i'm operative. Huge hps is not bad here, because the group is taking insane ammount of aoe damage and it's not overhealing. Second sorc heal got 4.5k hps and the group was never on full hp. Eventually someone just died. Yeah, totally balanced boss for story modes. Clap, clap.

[Dark_Mithrandir]

yes i'm operative. Huge hps is not bad here, because the group is taking insane ammount of aoe damage and it's not overhealing. Second sorc heal got 4.5k hps and the group was never on full hp. Eventually someone just died. Yeah, totally balanced boss for story modes. Clap, clap.

 

As i said the fight is solohealable.

Your pug group was doing it wrong.

 

I cant save people lives from 100m falls, they die, So unfair!

He jumped from the bridge and died for no good reason like your 2 deeps

[DarthVengeant]

need to l2p.

 

I am utterly SICK of hearing or reading people say this boss has anything to do with "LTP" crap. Your childish ego really puts people off.

 

My main raid group only JUST finally downed UL in 8 man SM 2 weeks ago and had been doing it for months. Why? Because 2 of the raid members don't play often and are more casual. However, they know their class and what to do, that group has zero problems on all the other bosses in ToS and Rav: it is only UL that is the problem. I personally have beaten UL many times, but outside of that raid group. I know how to play my many classes, otherwise I wouldn't be able to. Most of us were doing DF/DP HM back when that was the thing to do so it has NOTHING to do with "LTP' horse crap. It is just UL that is the problem, period. I could set here for 30 min typing examples of things that go wrong in that fight, such as the rocks all falling clear across the room next to the adds when you in are burn phase, screwing up the entire burn phase. But, people like you can't see beyond your ego and childishness to understand that over half the people who play this game aren't lucky enough to be in an "elite" raid group who can one shot UL every week, so I won't waste my time. You aren't special, just rude and childish.

 

HM is where the "challenge" should be. Not SM where it is supposed to be GF friendly, but isn't because of UL. PERIOD.

Edited May 26, 2015 by DarthVengeant

[davidp_newton]

yes i'm operative. Huge hps is not bad here, because the group is taking insane ammount of aoe damage and it's not overhealing. Second sorc heal got 4.5k hps and the group was never on full hp. Eventually someone just died. Yeah, totally balanced boss for story modes. Clap, clap.

 

Don't stand in stupid: it's that simple. Your group was clearly taking vastly more damage than they needed to by not executing the mechanics correctly. Not stacking for healing in between add phases. Not moving as a group from add to add to maximise AOE healing. Ranged DPS not staying out of add melee range to avoid the add melee attack. Probably not executing the cross phase correctly either. It is also quite possible that their DPS was low enough that one or more of the adds was still alive after rage storm.

 

Also you quote HPS for the sorceror healer, not EHPS. EHPS is a much, much more valuable thing to quote.

Edited May 26, 2015 by davidp_newton