Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[JonnyBigBoss]

It's minor, but noticeable at times, especially in PvP. I really wish it wasn't there at all because it would make this game the first since WoW to really get gameplay RIGHT.

[YzenDanek]

Would someone answer/confirm my post? Cause I'm not sure I'm getting many points raised in this thread.

 

I'm personally having no problem; not sure what I'm missing?

 

It's not a balance issue. It's a gameplay issue.

 

Especially for gamers that play a lot of FPS games or who played WoW at a competitive level, playing any game where ability execution has built in delays is too maddening to even consider. It feels like driving a performance automobile that has loose steering.

Edited December 26, 2011 by YzenDanek

[thestackshow]

PvP as a Sniper is pretty much unplayable with the current ability delay.

 

All my moves have cast timers, so I have to wait until the animation goes off before i use my next move or it gets cancelled.

 

Its kind of stupid to have to sit and wait, even though your cast bar just finished, because you have to make sure the animation goes off or it doesent cast.

 

I rerolled today because I cant PvP as a sniper anymore, the ability delay is just too much for me to bear.

[Xcore]

PvP as a Sniper is pretty much unplayable with the current ability delay.

 

All my moves have cast timers, so I have to wait until the animation goes off before i use my next move or it gets cancelled.

 

Its kind of stupid to have to sit and wait, even though your cast bar just finished, because you have to make sure the animation goes off or it doesent cast.

 

I rerolled today because I cant PvP as a sniper anymore, the ability delay is just too much for me to bear.

 

I'm a Gunslinger and I know exactly what you're talking about.... its absurd.

[trinthalas]

/signed

 

Anyone coming from high end competitive pvp or serious end-game raiding from WoW can attest to the fact that extremely responsive and tight control is required for things to work properly and allow player skill to be the determining factor in success or failure. Like it or not, this is why WoW became the juggernaught that it is.

 

I understand people jumping on the "it's only a few days after launch" train, but unfortunately in the current market, new mmo's are made or broken in those first few critical months after release. For an mmo to be an vehicle that's attractive to the serious or competitive player, this issue must be addressed sooner rather than later. I would love nothing more than to see SWTOR succeed, but this can be the difference between a competitive and sustainable mmo, or one of the myriad close but no cigar attempts out there.

[Xcore]

It's not a balance issue. It's a gameplay issue.

 

Especially for gamers that play a lot of FPS games or who played WoW at a competitive level, playing any game where ability execution has built in delays is too maddening to even consider. It feels like driving a performance automobile that has a loose steering wheel.

 

That is a great analogy and I need to quote you for emphasis... this post is very well defining.

[thestackshow]

Try PvPing as a Sniper or Gunslinger, your cast bar will finish but your ability wont trigger. So you cant just hit another move until you actually watch your ability animation go off, now try watching for ability animations while looking at your health, energy, the opponent, other cooldowns, etc at the same time.

 

Yea, unplayable.

[TenderLobotomy]

First of all yes, coming from a raiding background I know exactly what you are asking and yes... the scenario and your fear is correct in that, this is what happens. However, having said that... you need to still try the game itself as it is very good in a lot of ways (Check my Review on the OP -- there is a link).

 

Secondly though and this is an even bigger issue imo, its not just that as you describe due to animation length the time from when you "hit" the button to when the ability actually takes effect on the target is delayed BUT --

 

Here is the important BUT: The whole thing is buggy/can bug itself out VERY easily if played at a "fast" pace and "twitchy" level as you would WoW.

 

For example a Rogue.... you stand behind your target and as your energy is ticking up slowly (not enough to use sinister strike yet!) you don't just stand there (though you can, its ok) waiting for the energy to get to 35 to use Sinister Strike... no... you SPAM Sinister Strike already so that the SPLIT second that it gets to 35, it happens.

 

This you cannot do in SW:TOR, perhaps you can do it once, perhaps it'll work for two abilities in a row... but more often than not it'll completely bug it all out in the sense that the ability will happen, no animation... or the ability will trigger its CD and use its resource (as if it happened) but it didn't happen... or it'll happen .5 sec or 1 sec late... etc.

 

 

So all in all, you should still try to play and hold out on a response from Bioware, perhaps this is indeed fixable but be ready for no fix or response as that is also possible if this is a Core Coding or Engine problem.

 

Thanks for the lengthy response. Yeah, I'll still be trying it out for sure, and will be cautiously optimistic about a fix eventually. It seems like the spam-bug thing is just that: a bug that needs to be worked out.

 

As far as the delay after casting goes, I want to reiterate to BioWare that this is indeed one of the most important aspects to take end-game raiding and PVP into the competitive realm of WoW. I truly hope for an answer either way.

[Helveds]

I will have to agree with the OP about this. The game is great, and I enjoy it a lot - but it is not smooth like WoW, which I think is a perfect example on how to integrate your actions completely into a character that you've made. It's like "the second I hit this button, I expect it to happen, because it's what I want to happen. Not .35 seconds later."

 

The best word I can find to describe the condition of (generally) combat (and mostly in PvP), is "clunky."

[Putok]

I noticed it on my Jedi Knight as well, especially with Riposte (Warrior's Revenge Ability) but I agree, casted abilities make it much more obvious.

 

I think it is most prevalent when you chain multiple abilities as efficiently as possible, as if you're basically going through a DPS rotation. Basically it seems like the engine or mechanics don't support "quick" playing and "spamming" of abilities... it appears to bug out.

 

I've definitely noticed it as darkness spec sith assassin too. When I try to pop recklessness to get the crit damage bonus on an energized shock proc, right after using a melee ability, quite often recklessness, shock, or both won't happen. It seems like they get caught up in the animations or something.

[Gamjee]

Just popping in to add my name to the folks who are very concerned about this issue. It has a really significant impact on the playability of the game.

[Redsuns_]

bioware focus too much on creating the world and doing the voice overs.

 

The UI is like crap and the combat just feel so out of sync at times. And finding your buffs, procs or monitoring debuffs IS A MAJOR PAIN IN THE ***. ITS TOO MESSY.

 

swtor is a great game with huge potential. Please start making improvements to the core game instead of adding new flashpoints and operations.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Redsuns_

[Wehs]

I'll agree with this as well. We know that there are bugs, and it's reasonable to say that they have not all been addressed yet, but this "feeling" is really bringing it to the forefront of issues. Not that I have an overall issue with this, but I do feel what the OP is talking about, and agree.

[Putok]

Thanks for the lengthy response. Yeah, I'll still be trying it out for sure, and will be cautiously optimistic about a fix eventually. It seems like the spam-bug thing is just that: a bug that needs to be worked out.

 

As far as the delay after casting goes, I want to reiterate to BioWare that this is indeed one of the most important aspects to take end-game raiding and PVP into the competitive realm of WoW. I truly hope for an answer either way.

 

Beyond what he said, if you try to follow up that cast time ability with an instant (the way a resto druid might use regrowth-->swiftmend on a clear casting proc on a low hp target), quite often the instant will not fire, because it gets munched by the animation of the cast time ability. Sometimes, even worse, the instant somehow munches the cast time ability.

 

The game engine seems to be prioritizing animations over player inputs, and that is simply unacceptable.

 

It's really rough for classes with lots of cast time abilities. I've been leveling a sniper on the side, and I get very frustrated at times, because trying to get in a snipe right after an ambush can REALLY muck things up. Chain casting also causes major issues quite often. For that class, certain instants are also indubitably not instant, but have a hidden cast time. Overload shot in particular stands out. Try using it right on the back of a casted ability. The GCD will have expired, so it should fire instantly. Instead, you consistently get AT LEAST half a second of delay before you actually fire.

 

It's not a very big issue for me on my assassin, it only seems to have an occasional impact when I'm able to string abilities with different animations back to back to back, but it's a major issue for people with cast times.

 

I think the engine itself needs some major tweaks, so that it basically ignores the animation when deciding whether or not to trigger the ability. If it's only able to play on of the two animations, or only the back half of the second animation, that's infinitely better than one of the two abilities not working, or an "instant" taking a half second or longer to cast. WoW's engine does not have problems under those circumstances. If you cast fireball followed immediately by fireblast, it will play the complete fireball animation and the tail end of the fireblast animation. It does not look awkward, and both abilities go off without a hitch. My main in that game is a rogue, and I'm frequently performing actions quickly enough that the complete attack animation can not complete before moving into the next attack, and it NEVER, EVER causes issues. If need be, the game just ignores one of the two animations to make sure the abilities are used properly.

 

Form must follow function.

[kalibri]

Agree with the OP. This is the thing that will make or break this game.

 

I don't see myself playing more than the first 30 days, not like this. Pvp is hit or miss, Pve not so much but still, BW needs to adress this very quickly.

[LordJestR]

 

The game engine seems to be prioritizing animations over player inputs, and that is simply unacceptable.

 

 

Heart of the matter, summarized in one sentence. Bravo!

[WykedTetra]

agreed and seconded, this actually makes the game maddeningly frustrating for me, especially the delay on interrupts and having instants eat my heal casts.

[Wythern]

Its horrible fix it fix it fix it fix it

[Faranell]

I'm still going to continue playing this game and stay subscribed, but I understand completely where this post is coming from. It is something that needs to be addressed as soon as possible.

 

Playing a sniper in pvp with the ability delays and trying to use cover can be extremely frustrating.

[Bezerye]

totally agree with the author, i hope they'll fix this issue soon.

[Kakarris]

Agreed. Not much else I can say. Fix it!

[mskyhwak]

I have to agree with the OP as well, being a 4+ yrs wow player, there is a lot to like in SwtoR but i also switched to Aion and Rift just to come back to Wow because of this very issue. What I don't understand is that BW had 3 yrs to get this right and WoW was right in front of them as of how to get it right when it comes to this issue.

 

Oh well, hopefully they will get it fixed - it would be a shame for a game like this to become a Aion or Rift ...

[kajukutillter]

At first I thought it was a hardware issue, so I replaced my GTS250 with a brand new GTX560Ti card (rest is Core 2 Duo 6600, 4 Gigs RAM, Win 7 32bit). And then I realized that I was getting the same thing: PvP in Warzones is unbearable. So, I turned everything to Low, turned off Shadows, and tried again. Still, PvP in Warzones is unbearable. It seems like I have absolutely no control over my character: abilities that delay, abilities that don't even trigger, and a general sense that I can't react in time to what is happening around me. I had no idea what the problem was, I tried 3 different sets of NVidia drivers, experimented on every 3D setting in the NVidia Control Panel, and then I read THIS POST. As a seasoned WoW player, I must say that it never cross my mind...

[Leilei]

First of all yes, coming from a raiding background I know exactly what you are asking and yes... the scenario and your fear is correct in that, this is what happens. However, having said that... you need to still try the game itself as it is very good in a lot of ways (Check my Review on the OP -- there is a link).

 

Secondly though and this is an even bigger issue imo, its not just that as you describe due to animation length the time from when you "hit" the button to when the ability actually takes effect on the target is delayed BUT --

 

Here is the important BUT: The whole thing is buggy/can bug itself out VERY easily if played at a "fast" pace and "twitchy" level as you would WoW.

 

For example a Rogue.... you stand behind your target and as your energy is ticking up slowly (not enough to use sinister strike yet!) you don't just stand there (though you can, its ok) waiting for the energy to get to 35 to use Sinister Strike... no... you SPAM Sinister Strike already so that the SPLIT second that it gets to 35, it happens.

 

This you cannot do in SW:TOR, perhaps you can do it once, perhaps it'll work for two abilities in a row... but more often than not it'll completely bug it all out in the sense that the ability will happen, no animation... or the ability will trigger its CD and use its resource (as if it happened) but it didn't happen... or it'll happen .5 sec or 1 sec late... etc.

 

 

So all in all, you should still try to play and hold out on a response from Bioware, perhaps this is indeed fixable but be ready for no fix or response as that is also possible if this is a Core Coding or Engine problem.

 

I never got to the point where i run out of energy.

But i can tell you right now i never spam abilities in swtor.

 

Example is how i do my usual run.

 

Underworld medicine - > pugnacity -> stEalth -> go behind target -> back blast -> blaster whip -> vital shot -> regular attack -> blaster whip -> back shot -> regular attack -> sucker punch-> blaster whip.

 

I do that whole combo on enemies when grinding silver/ elite enemies and its NEVER messed up. Just queue the next move halfway through the animation. So when the blaster whip does damage i press the key for he nex ability Nd itll autouse it when the gcd is done

 

As for the delayed effect it happens in wow too. You cast fireball on someone far there will be a half sec delay before it hits after casting. It doesnt get interrupted when the fireball is already in the air and you can fireblast for a quick burst.

 

You can do that here as well with charged shot -> flurry of bolts. I used that a lot before i became a scoundrel o.o

[Senden]

I would love to see this removed but doesn't pretty much EVERY mmo have this? All the MMOs bar WoW and AoC have had this annoying thing. I hope Bioware sort it though as it really does take away from some of the fun and definitely effects the immersion.