Do something with SM Underlurker already, TOS has been wasting for nearly 4 months

[TUXs]

This so much. For me SM of this content was a great way to prepare for HM and without it I would be less prepared for HM. Take that away and I would have nothing to prepare for HM and many I beleive would feel the same way. Why should we go from super easy to very hard with no in between?

3 levels...SM, HM, NiM. HM should prep you for NiM. Story mode should allow you to see the story.

[FerkWork]

3 levels...SM, HM, NiM. HM should prep you for NiM. Story mode should allow you to see the story.

 

So what preps for HM?

[Shwarzchild]

3 levels...SM, HM, NiM. HM should prep you for NiM. Story mode should allow you to see the story.

 

I don't think that makes sense logically. So if hardmode prepares for nightmare mode. Shouldn't storymode prepare for hardmode? It seems like that definition goes against logic.

[TUXs]

So what preps for HM?

Practice.

[TUXs]

I don't think that makes sense logically. So if hardmode prepares for nightmare mode. Shouldn't storymode prepare for hardmode? It seems like that definition goes against logic.

Story mode should give you a brief overview of the mechanics, not stop you because of them. Figure out the hard mode stuff with practice. Story mode is for seeing the STORY!

[Shwarzchild]

I wish we'd just go back to calling it "normal" mode instead of story so this debate goes away.

[FerkWork]

Edited As I don't feel the need to argue this as we are firm in our opposing ideas of SM.

 

Continue on.

Edited March 25, 2015 by FerkWork

[Kirazy]

Story mode should give you a brief overview of the mechanics, not stop you because of them. Figure out the hard mode stuff with practice. Story mode is for seeing the STORY!

 

It's not mechanics that stop people with Underlurker. It's the incredibly high dps requirements for groups, relative to the other nine SM bosses.

[GopherLuV]

It's not mechanics that stop people with Underlurker. It's the incredibly high dps requirements for groups, relative to the other nine SM bosses.

 

It's not "incredibly high"... it is higher yes but, it's not all that high... in terms of actual DPS....

 

If your running 2 tanks, consider both tanks do 500 DPS (which is low.. they should do way more.. 1k+) your 4 DPS need to pull right around 3k... if you run 5 DPS which.. if youve done it before you know thats the way to go even in HM.. You wind up around 2500 DPS each.. less if your tank can pull 1k+.. even less if your healers could do any damage (which, a good healer should ALWAYs be helping to DPS.. especially with DoTs).. and i know sword squadron runs around the same.. about 2300 DPS with two tanks hitting 500 per..

Oh and if you throw a sage in the group, he will pull 3k+ just force quaking two of the ads!!!!!!!!!

 

Now, considering that when we came into 3.0, got to 60 in 180/186 gear, most DPS could easily parse 3500 that's not that hard... if you now have 186 augs + some 192 gear you can be not all that great and still hit 3500.. good dps will be 4k+..

 

I think it's more the problem that many of these people who pug, just don't play enough or care to learn to play the class/spec, so their DPS will run 2k-2500...

[JSitruc]

Story mode should give you a brief overview of the mechanics, not stop you because of them. Figure out the hard mode stuff with practice. Story mode is for seeing the STORY!

 

the devs fixed this way of thinking with the release of SOR. on yavin, you get to choose to do either the solo or group version of The Enemy Within mission. If you choose solo than at the end of the mission you fight Revan and get to experience the actual story.

In fact, i find there may be more story to the solo version of that mission. Compared to the op

 

If you choose Group than you get to do ToS and fight all of the bosses.

 

So.. people who want to just experience the STORY now have that option without stepping foot into the OPS.

 

with that said, STORY no longer goes hand in hand with ops.

 

however, Saying all of that, I still think these OPS could be tuned down to the level of the more casual players

Edited March 25, 2015 by JSitruc

[Transcendent]

3 levels...SM, HM, NiM. HM should prep you for NiM. Story mode should allow you to see the story.

 

This. So much this it's not even funny.

 

I don't require having my hand held by progression raiders,especially not in SM OPS. Equally I don't wish to be a progression raider (it's scripted and bloody boring as hell). I'm quite content to get geared up enough to wander into an OP, enough so I can clear the content and to see the story (which is ALL I am interested in).

[Shwarzchild]

This. So much this it's not even funny.

 

I don't require having my hand held by progression raiders,especially not in SM OPS. Equally I don't wish to be a progression raider (it's scripted and bloody boring as hell). I'm quite content to get geared up enough to wander into an OP, enough so I can clear the content and to see the story (which is ALL I am interested in).

 

Ok so I don't agree with you. You don't agree with me. If you're on PoT5 PM me so I can put your toon on ignore. If I'm setting up a pug group, I want no part of your participation.

[TUXs]

Ok so I don't agree with you. You don't agree with me. If you're on PoT5 PM me so I can put your toon on ignore. If I'm setting up a pug group, I want no part of your participation.

Why is that? I'll take him and I'd even help you. We can disagree on things but you don't need to be a jerk about it. This is a video game meant to be fun...we don't need more players quitting from POT5.

[TheSeventhJedi]

It's a dance, guys. Sure, it's a hard one to learn, but once you have it down, it's pretty easy. The only real problem with underlurker is you can't allow idiots to run with you, because if one person can't tell left from right, you're going to wipe. However, since it shouldn't be that hard to find eight people who understand "stand in this spot in the cross, stand behind a rock when they fall," it shouldn't be as hard as you're claiming.

[Bachannal]

I'm just going to say that, I personally feel that the only true annoyance in the Underlurker fight, is the stupid cross mechanic.

 

Seriously...who the heck thought that standing in specific tiny confined areas, while in the middle of a battle would be a "fun" mechanic is a giant dillhole. Does it make the OP challenging? Sure...but mostly it's just an annoying mechanic.

 

I would argue that it's the ONLY part of the fight that I'd remove if I had the magic wand to do so. It's just a stupid necessity for a fight.. It just doesn't make any sense...why would you *have to* have a set amount of people on any given side of the boss to win the fight? Just makes no sense.

[TUXs]

It's a dance, guys. Sure, it's a hard one to learn, but once you have it down, it's pretty easy. The only real problem with underlurker is you can't allow idiots to run with you, because if one person can't tell left from right, you're going to wipe. However, since it shouldn't be that hard to find eight people who understand "stand in this spot in the cross, stand behind a rock when they fall," it shouldn't be as hard as you're claiming.

It's a PuG stopper. In SM, that's not the way it should be imo. All they need to do is reduce the health and damage of the adds and it becomes as simple as "stay out of stupid".

[Shwarzchild]

Why is that? I'll take him and I'd even help you. We can disagree on things but you don't need to be a jerk about it. This is a video game meant to be fun...we don't need more players quitting from POT5.

 

No we don't need any more people quitting from our server. That's true. I also don't want to deal with people like him/her who clearly want to do the bare minimum, and then force a change in the game so that they can continually take advantage of everything so they can do as little as possible. I'd rather take people along on pugs who at least try to be something more than a succubus. I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm trying to enjoy the video game in a way that at least covers my goals/desires/loves while also helps others (which is why I set up pug groups over gen chat without asking for achievements, and gear checks. I offer up voice comms if people would like them, or I type out fights to people. Give away gear if I'm asked nicely). To clearly not care, but want to take advantage of the people who spend the time trying to help him be more means I would rather spend my time and effort on someone else. It's just a basic fit idea of player and player. I'd rather steer clear of him/her.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Shwarzchild

[Costello]

I'd like to know why this was such an anti mdps boss fight.

 

The smaller lurkers do more damage the closer you get, and Mdps have to get close. It jumps around so they have to chase it losing time on target, rocks fall which you have to hide behind more often than not causing mdps to be unable to attack anything as they are more than 4 feet away. While rdps can attack or those luck rdps that have a secondary healing option can heal.

 

This makes mdps far less sought after for this operation than ranged.

[TUXs]

No we don't need any more people quitting from our server. That's true. I also don't want to deal with people like him/her who clearly want to do the bare minimum, and then force a change in the game so that they can continually take advantage of everything so they can do as little as possible. I'd rather take people along on pugs who at least try to be something more than a succubus. I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm trying to enjoy the video game in a way that at least covers my goals/desires/loves while also helps others (which is why I set up pug groups over gen chat without asking for achievements, and gear checks. I offer up voice comms if people would like them, or I type out fights to people. Give away gear if I'm asked nicely). To clearly not care, but want to take advantage of the people who spend the time trying to help him be more means I would rather spend my time and effort on someone else. It's just a basic fit idea of player and player. I'd rather steer clear of him/her.

I understand your point...I have nothing but respect for players like you. You're the kind of guy that makes this game great imo. You don't wait for others to form a group, you take the initiative and fill it yourself...you are undoubtedly my favorite type of player and one I hope I have the pleasure of grouping with some day (T'ux on POT5).

 

That being said...you've got to realize that some players just aren't that good (not speaking of Transcendent, he might be the best, I don't know). I would rather those players have a way to experience Ops that they can win, even with minimal effort on their part, because I believe it encourages some of them to do more and see more Ops in the future (like HM/NiM) - this is what I believe Story Mode Ops are for...an introduction to Ops. Not everyone is a top player and not everyone cares about gear, they just want to experience the story aspect of it. Some players are so damn shy that they're afraid to join an Ops group because they're afraid they'll be that one player who brings down the whole Ops.

 

I HATE things, especially game mechanics, that discourage players from TRYING, in PvE or PvP. Currently, Underlurker is discouraging. I've beaten it every week since release of 3.0, but the guys (and girl) I run with, are amazing players. Not everyone can.

 

Also, with 3.0, every old Operation that could have been used as an "introduction", has been made obsolete. How many PuGs do you see forming for DF/DP these days? I haven't seen ANY since the reward was changed. Story mode Ops have got to be at entry level imo...otherwise they discourage players.

[Merlinmagus]

Gear check, achiev check, ts, pre fight tactics (123,321 etc). Or just simply find the mighty russians (dear Russian guild I pugged with You one time tos with no wipe, if it reach any of You please PM me[shootdatroopa])

[bdatt]

I'm just going to say that, I personally feel that the only true annoyance in the Underlurker fight, is the stupid cross mechanic.

 

Seriously...who the heck thought that standing in specific tiny confined areas, while in the middle of a battle would be a "fun" mechanic is a giant dillhole. Does it make the OP challenging? Sure...but mostly it's just an annoying mechanic.

 

I would argue that it's the ONLY part of the fight that I'd remove if I had the magic wand to do so. It's just a stupid necessity for a fight.. It just doesn't make any sense...why would you *have to* have a set amount of people on any given side of the boss to win the fight? Just makes no sense.

 

So would you have removed the following too?

- Firebrand and Stormcaller double destruction

- Dread Guard thing where you stand in green circles to cleanse doom

- Operator IX stand in your colored circle

- Brontes "stand by your finger"

 

Just a few "stand in your spot or you die" mechanics in SM ops.

 

The only things I would change are dps requirements and remove or tone down the maul ability from SM lurkerlings. Requiring melee be aware enough to stand at max melee range while putting out good dps shouldn't be in SM.

 

I'd also change the timing requirement in SS. It's enough to have to work on timing the bombs for SM.

[Orizuru]

I'm just gonna leave this link here for people that need help with UL.

 

I'm not disagreeing with the idea that the fight is pushing the limits for a casual PUG. I don't know what the solution is to this problem, because I do enjoy boss fights that are challenging, even on Story Mode, but I recognize that there is a good argument for some minor improvements on this fight.

 

All I can really do though, is offer the link above as a means to help mitigate the issue a little until a better solution can be found.

[lpope]

So would you have removed the following too?

- Firebrand and Stormcaller double destruction

- Dread Guard thing where you stand in green circles to cleanse doom

- Operator IX stand in your colored circle

- Brontes "stand by your finger"

 

Difference is in those mechanics, if an individual fails then the entire raid doesn't take a huge amount of damage. At most, the person who fails dies. The exception being DD from Stormcaller. That could kill the tank, but then the tank can control that somewhat by moving himself behind the dps / heals.

 

IMO, Ravagers SM is fine as is. ToS SM needs tweeked. Specifically the Underlurker adds health need to be reduced 10 - 15%. As for the cross mechanic, I'd make it so that as long as 1 person is in each quadrant you pass. Keep the equal numbers on left / right and 1 on front / back in HM. That way the basic mechanic is still there but is much more forgiving. That is how you make mechanics progressively harder in OPS. Then I would buff Revanite Commanders and Revan. They are both way too freaking easy.

 

Edit: Also Brontes stand by your finger mechanic is HM / NiM. As is OP IX, absorb your color. You can ignore those mechanics in SM.

Edited March 25, 2015 by lpope

[Soul_of_Flames]

Going to jump in here and say this:

 

The mode is story mode. The reason for the existence of this story mode is, believe it or not, to allow players to enjoy the story!

 

It should not be difficult. It should not be challenging. That's what hard and nightmare modes are for.

 

Story mode bosses should never have any sort of checks. They shouldn't have tight mechanics. They should be faceroll enough that any group of halfway competent players (IE Don't stand in stupid) can roll through it in an hour. In fact, I'd even be in favor of lowering the rewards gained in story mode to balance out nerfing the difficulty.

 

To put this point in a little bit of perspective, an average progression raiding group should be able to do a level 60 story mode ops in gear that's 3 main tiers lower than what drops in the content. So these ops are dropping 192 gear, story mode should be doable, by a good group of players, in 168 gear.

 

 

Now, I can hear the complainers now: if you make it too easy, then people are just going to farm comms. Well, I say this to you (and this also applies to the whole 'they shouldn't have gotten rid of ultimate comms in older content' argument): Comm gear is garbage. Any raider with half a brain can tell you that. So how is it fair to say people can't farm CRAP gear from story mode ops? In fact, they can even make the drop rates for comms even lower to make the grind even harder!

 

The point is this: players are getting bored. There is nothing for the more casual players to do besides dailies and flashpoints. Even old content is out of the question because there is nothing to gain from it. Between the overtuning of storymode mechanics and the unbalanced removal of comms from older content, the game has become stale and boring.

[FerkWork]

Going to jump in here and say this:

 

The mode is story mode. The reason for the existence of this story mode is, believe it or not, to allow players to enjoy the story!

 

It should not be difficult. It should not be challenging. That's what hard and nightmare modes are for.

 

Story mode bosses should never have any sort of checks. They shouldn't have tight mechanics. They should be faceroll enough that any group of halfway competent players (IE Don't stand in stupid) can roll through it in an hour. In fact, I'd even be in favor of lowering the rewards gained in story mode to balance out nerfing the difficulty.

 

To put this point in a little bit of perspective, an average progression raiding group should be able to do a level 60 story mode ops in gear that's 3 main tiers lower than what drops in the content. So these ops are dropping 192 gear, story mode should be doable, by a good group of players, in 168 gear.

 

 

Now, I can hear the complainers now: if you make it too easy, then people are just going to farm comms. Well, I say this to you (and this also applies to the whole 'they shouldn't have gotten rid of ultimate comms in older content' argument): Comm gear is garbage. Any raider with half a brain can tell you that. So how is it fair to say people can't farm CRAP gear from story mode ops? In fact, they can even make the drop rates for comms even lower to make the grind even harder!

 

The point is this: players are getting bored. There is nothing for the more casual players to do besides dailies and flashpoints. Even old content is out of the question because there is nothing to gain from it. Between the overtuning of storymode mechanics and the unbalanced removal of comms from older content, the game has become stale and boring.

 

I think the main culprit here is that content isn't coming as fast as people want it. Changing difficulty would give a slight reprieve and allow more people to experience it but it wouldn't make much of a difference until we get entirely new content.

 

How about a Compromise: 4 modes:

Story (What you suggested): Drops some comms and a small amount of gear.

Challenging: Current story mode difficulty and buff the last 2 fights on ToS

Hard: Same

Nightmare: Same

 

For those who are concerned about lowering the quality of players I do have one idea that I have suggested before:

To enter the 3 other modes you have to pass a 2 challenges for each roll similar to the Raptus tests. Heals could have a healing challenge tailored to the avg outgoing dmg in that level and a another test to use cleanse and other abilities. DPS would have to pass a DPS check suitable for that difficulty and a skills challenge. For tanks a survival one and a oneo test ability to hold threat. Will it make sure everyone is awesome? Probable not but I think a system like this would be beneficial for all in seeing where you stand.

 

Would this be acceptable to others?