Do something with SM Underlurker already, TOS has been wasting for nearly 4 months

[lpope]

 

How about a Compromise: 4 modes:

Story (What you suggested): Drops some comms and a small amount of gear.

Challenging: Current story mode difficulty and buff the last 2 fights on ToS

Hard: Same

Nightmare: Same

 

I've always supported 4 tiers of difficulty for OPS. Unfortunately, it's just not gonna happen. BW can't even give us NiM within 4 months of SM / HM. How long would it be if we added another tier?

[Grayseven]

The only caveat for game design should be a simple one: Is it fun?

 

Fun, however, is subjective. Because it is subjective, you have to take into account the different kinds of players you will have (not to mention the different kinds of players you want to draw in or retain).

 

This is where the idea of difficulty tiers comes in. You create multiple levels of difficulty in order to ensure you give the maximum amount of players the chance to enjoy your creation at a difficulty level they are comfortable with. You give better rewards for higher difficulty and the lower difficulty rewards should gear players to be able to take on the next tier of difficulty should they choose to do so.

 

When your lowest tier of difficulty has so many players screaming about it...well, as a designer you should probably be looking into why.

 

I can understand wanting to add variety to the game. I can understand wanting to do something you've never done before. I can understand wanting one tier to lead players into the next. What I can not understand is placing a definite roadblock into your lowest tier of difficulty that, by the developers own admission, has reduced the percentage of players running it to unnaturally low levels.

 

Story mode Underlurker is a prime example of bad game design. It combines an unforgiving DPS check to an unforgiving mechanic check that stops PuG groups and casual gamers dead. Add in the simple fact that the weekly Ops Finder has to be 16 man and now you have 16 chances for one person to screw up and doom the entire group to a wipe. In Story Mode.

 

Let's not even discuss how, once again, melee DPS are even more screwed than anyone else seeing as how the adds will absolutely destroy anyone not a tank who is in melee range.

 

You want to keep the mechanics in, fine. But first you need to make sure your engine can handle the mechanics. You need to make sure the graphics from your encounter don't bog down the average system. Face it, most players aren't running top of the line rigs...they are running a Best Buy toaster that meets or slightly exceeds minimum spec's.

 

The best fix to Underlurker would be drastically increasing the enrage timer and ensuring that if a group has a death it doesn't cause an automatic cross mechanic fail because the group is a body or three short. For story mode, this would allow the mechanic to remain in place without being such a harsh DPS check for casual players. It is, after all, Story Mode. Short enrage timers should be a Hard Mode mechanic and have no place in Story Mode operations.

 

A couple of additional fixes would go a long way to helping players with average systems, as well as fixing what still appear to be bugs. One, stop spawning multiple adds. If an add from a previous phase it still up, give it a buff that increases damage output instead of adding another add in place. This would go a long way to helping with the lag. Better, give the adds a stacking buff that increases their damage and when an add is killed spawn a new one after a set delay that starts the stacking buff all over again.

 

Two, the red circles for rock locations should show up as soon as UL starts channeling. All of the red circles, not just one here then a long delay followed by a red circle appearing that gives less than a seconds warning before a rock drops on the spot. We've run into multiple instances of players not seeing any red circles at all until the rock falls and I've seen it personally on many occasions.

 

Story Mode should be easy mode and should never include mechanics that prevent casual players from completing the operation. Story Modes should cater to the casual player just as HM and NiM cater to dedicated raiders.

[FerkWork]

I've always supported 4 tiers of difficulty for OPS. Unfortunately, it's just not gonna happen. BW can't even give us NiM within 4 months of SM / HM. How long would it be if we added another tier?

 

They could just make the Challenging and for SM just tone down the difficulty or take out a few mechanics. Shouldn't be that hard. But yeah probable not going to happen lol.

[DarthVitrial]

IMO, it's not Underlurker that needs a nerf, it's Sword Squadron.

[Andrellma]

I think the main culprit here is that content isn't coming as fast as people want it. Changing difficulty would give a slight reprieve and allow more people to experience it but it wouldn't make much of a difference until we get entirely new content.

 

How about a Compromise: 4 modes:

Story (What you suggested): Drops some comms and a small amount of gear.

Challenging: Current story mode difficulty and buff the last 2 fights on ToS

Hard: Same

Nightmare: Same

 

For those who are concerned about lowering the quality of players I do have one idea that I have suggested before:

To enter the 3 other modes you have to pass a 2 challenges for each roll similar to the Raptus tests. Heals could have a healing challenge tailored to the avg outgoing dmg in that level and a another test to use cleanse and other abilities. DPS would have to pass a DPS check suitable for that difficulty and a skills challenge. For tanks a survival one and a oneo test ability to hold threat. Will it make sure everyone is awesome? Probable not but I think a system like this would be beneficial for all in seeing where you stand.

 

Would this be acceptable to others?

 

Here's my compromise, based on what others in this thread are suggesting:

 

Story: Bosses provide no challenge at all. There are no mechanics checks, very lax dps checks, and exists only so people can see the story. Since story is all you care about, this mode drops no comms, no gear, and 1/3 the credits it currently does.

 

Normal: Current story mode.

 

Hard: No change.

 

Nightmare: No change.

[Tsillah]

IMO, it's not Underlurker that needs a nerf, it's Sword Squadron.

 

Actually Sword Squadron has already been nerfed.

 

 

For me ToS is perfectly doable but I do not understand the difficulty level of these two bosses for a SM Ops.

 

In the beginning of SWTOR we didn't have SM. We hadn NM...Normal Mode. It's the reason with Nightmare Mode is called NiM and not NM.

 

But at some point people complained they were too hard for casuals and a lot of pugs, especially because these people wanted to see the content and experience at least the story line of them. And as such Story Mode was born, which was an easier version of Normal Mode.

 

It seems we've gone back to NM and SM isn't Story Mode anymore. Not a problem for me, but I do get why it's an issue for many players. I do not assume everybody is a raider or should be. I understand they want to see the story. Especially ToS is part of the main storyline.

 

It's not gonna happen of course but I thought from the start when they came with SM they shouldn't have dropped NM for it. We should have had SM and NM with a shared weekly CD and then HM and NiM for the hardcore raiders.

 

In the current set up SM could've dropped 186 gear, even with set bonuses or whatever and have a low requirement, but you have to choose if you go SM or NM. It's just how I feel about it and I don't expect it to happen but no matter what they do, SM should be Story Mode and currently ToS is not fulfilling that function. Again, it's not a problem for me, I have 15 level 60s and 5 already have full 192 gear with set bonuses and my main is working on HM now with the guild but I do fully understand that playing like that is not for everybody.

 

If ToS SM is supposed to prepare you for HM, then it should be Normal Mode, not Story Mode. BW apparently is not able to make a clear choice here.

[Grayseven]

*snip*

 

If ToS SM is supposed to prepare you for HM, then it should be Normal Mode, not Story Mode. BW apparently is not able to make a clear choice here.

 

I agree with everything you've said, but this quoted bit seems to hit the root of the problem.

 

There needs to be some consistency in BW design choices. Either Story Mode exists to allow the masses to enjoy the content BW has created or Story Mode needs a name change back to Normal Mode to be a more accurate description of what these Ops are.

 

I have always understood the design choice behind Story Mode as being one that allowed the majority of players to enjoy operations content. Maybe my understanding of Story Mode is flawed...I simply do not know.

 

As for one of the earlier comments about SM being easier but giving the same commendations and rewards...well, I think no changes are needed in comms simply because comm gear sucks...a lot. The only thing I've used Ultimate Comms for was for 198 armorings where I didn't yet have 192 or 198 set pieces. 192 mods and enhancements from drop tokens is far superior in stat balance to 198 comm mods and enhancements. Simply too much wasted on Endurance on those items.

[FerkWork]

Here's my compromise, based on what others in this thread are suggesting:

 

Story: Bosses provide no challenge at all. There are no mechanics checks, very lax dps checks, and exists only so people can see the story. Since story is all you care about, this mode drops no comms, no gear, and 1/3 the credits it currently does.

 

Normal: Current story mode.

 

Hard: No change.

 

Nightmare: No change.

 

I still think the challenges thing would be a nice addition IMHO, but I agree with this.

[Ruskaeth]

That was one of the reasons why Bioware chose to use Rav in the speed competition before they canceled it.

 

Aaah, thanks for reminding! I had completely forgotten about the cancelled tournament. Wasn't it cancelled because of bugs with Coratanni not being fixed because those had been there and reported like every single day since since 3.0 was released? Priceless!

 

[Bachannal]

The only caveat for game design should be a simple one: Is it fun?

 

Fun, however, is subjective. Because it is subjective, you have to take into account the different kinds of players you will have (not to mention the different kinds of players you want to draw in or retain).

 

This is where the idea of difficulty tiers comes in. You create multiple levels of difficulty in order to ensure you give the maximum amount of players the chance to enjoy your creation at a difficulty level they are comfortable with. You give better rewards for higher difficulty and the lower difficulty rewards should gear players to be able to take on the next tier of difficulty should they choose to do so.

 

When your lowest tier of difficulty has so many players screaming about it...well, as a designer you should probably be looking into why.

 

I can understand wanting to add variety to the game. I can understand wanting to do something you've never done before. I can understand wanting one tier to lead players into the next. What I can not understand is placing a definite roadblock into your lowest tier of difficulty that, by the developers own admission, has reduced the percentage of players running it to unnaturally low levels.

 

Story mode Underlurker is a prime example of bad game design. It combines an unforgiving DPS check to an unforgiving mechanic check that stops PuG groups and casual gamers dead. Add in the simple fact that the weekly Ops Finder has to be 16 man and now you have 16 chances for one person to screw up and doom the entire group to a wipe. In Story Mode.

 

Let's not even discuss how, once again, melee DPS are even more screwed than anyone else seeing as how the adds will absolutely destroy anyone not a tank who is in melee range.

 

You want to keep the mechanics in, fine. But first you need to make sure your engine can handle the mechanics. You need to make sure the graphics from your encounter don't bog down the average system. Face it, most players aren't running top of the line rigs...they are running a Best Buy toaster that meets or slightly exceeds minimum spec's.

 

The best fix to Underlurker would be drastically increasing the enrage timer and ensuring that if a group has a death it doesn't cause an automatic cross mechanic fail because the group is a body or three short. For story mode, this would allow the mechanic to remain in place without being such a harsh DPS check for casual players. It is, after all, Story Mode. Short enrage timers should be a Hard Mode mechanic and have no place in Story Mode operations.

 

A couple of additional fixes would go a long way to helping players with average systems, as well as fixing what still appear to be bugs. One, stop spawning multiple adds. If an add from a previous phase it still up, give it a buff that increases damage output instead of adding another add in place. This would go a long way to helping with the lag. Better, give the adds a stacking buff that increases their damage and when an add is killed spawn a new one after a set delay that starts the stacking buff all over again.

 

Two, the red circles for rock locations should show up as soon as UL starts channeling. All of the red circles, not just one here then a long delay followed by a red circle appearing that gives less than a seconds warning before a rock drops on the spot. We've run into multiple instances of players not seeing any red circles at all until the rock falls and I've seen it personally on many occasions.

 

Story Mode should be easy mode and should never include mechanics that prevent casual players from completing the operation. Story Modes should cater to the casual player just as HM and NiM cater to dedicated raiders.

 

Probably the best summation yet.

[Bachannal]

Difference is in those mechanics, if an individual fails then the entire raid doesn't take a huge amount of damage. At most, the person who fails dies. The exception being DD from Stormcaller. That could kill the tank, but then the tank can control that somewhat by moving himself behind the dps / heals.

 

IMO, Ravagers SM is fine as is. ToS SM needs tweeked. Specifically the Underlurker adds health need to be reduced 10 - 15%. As for the cross mechanic, I'd make it so that as long as 1 person is in each quadrant you pass. Keep the equal numbers on left / right and 1 on front / back in HM. That way the basic mechanic is still there but is much more forgiving. That is how you make mechanics progressively harder in OPS. Then I would buff Revanite Commanders and Revan. They are both way too freaking easy.

 

Edit: Also Brontes stand by your finger mechanic is HM / NiM. As is OP IX, absorb your color. You can ignore those mechanics in SM.

 

 

Thank you.

[bryancuster]

cleared 3 times with a pug last week only one had voice and none had a raid parse

[Grayseven]

cleared 3 times with a pug last week only one had voice and none had a raid parse

 

As in there was one pug added to a regular group, or everyone was a pug? Were those pugs all casuals or were they filled with the alts of players who have done the raid a lot? Were they geared or did they do it in 186's?

 

In short, telling us you did it x times doesn't matter one bit. I could tell you I climbed Mt Everest but it's nothing more than me saying something without any proof and doesn't change the fact that climbing Mt Everest is freaking hard.

[bdatt]

I would also like to add I got in a pug that failed the dps check...on sparky sm. No lie, multiple pulls enrage at 30% before folks even got into burn the boss mode.

 

So there is all levels of good and all levels of bad. Ultimately BW will decide if enough of its playerbase is attempting and succeeding at this content.

Edited March 25, 2015 by bdatt

[bryancuster]

As in there was one pug added to a regular group, or everyone was a pug? Were those pugs all casuals or were they filled with the alts of players who have done the raid a lot? Were they geared or did they do it in 186's?

 

In short, telling us you did it x times doesn't matter one bit. I could tell you I climbed Mt Everest but it's nothing more than me saying something without any proof and doesn't change the fact that climbing Mt Everest is freaking hard.

 

Pug as in i spammed the fleet with one other guildie for 2 of the groups. the other i was pugged into. none of the three had more than 3 members from a single guild. Not sure how im supposed to know if they are casual players or a hardcore raiders alt, but everyone seemed to have a basic idea how the fight was supposed to work even if they hadnt cleared it yet. I did not include my guild runs, or even runs with half guildies as a pug.

[Shwarzchild]

I understand your point...I have nothing but respect for players like you. You're the kind of guy that makes this game great imo. You don't wait for others to form a group, you take the initiative and fill it yourself...you are undoubtedly my favorite type of player and one I hope I have the pleasure of grouping with some day (T'ux on POT5).

 

That being said...you've got to realize that some players just aren't that good (not speaking of Transcendent, he might be the best, I don't know). I would rather those players have a way to experience Ops that they can win, even with minimal effort on their part, because I believe it encourages some of them to do more and see more Ops in the future (like HM/NiM) - this is what I believe Story Mode Ops are for...an introduction to Ops. Not everyone is a top player and not everyone cares about gear, they just want to experience the story aspect of it. Some players are so damn shy that they're afraid to join an Ops group because they're afraid they'll be that one player who brings down the whole Ops.

 

I HATE things, especially game mechanics, that discourage players from TRYING, in PvE or PvP. Currently, Underlurker is discouraging. I've beaten it every week since release of 3.0, but the guys (and girl) I run with, are amazing players. Not everyone can.

 

Also, with 3.0, every old Operation that could have been used as an "introduction", has been made obsolete. How many PuGs do you see forming for DF/DP these days? I haven't seen ANY since the reward was changed. Story mode Ops have got to be at entry level imo...otherwise they discourage players.

 

Thanks for the compliment. I'm by no means great at this game, but just solid enough to be a decent hard mode raider. There's a lot I agree with in your post here. I hate the group finder as it's totally wasted right now when it comes to operations. It's never been good for it, but requring 16 man is idiotic, as is only allowing q for one operation per week. It's a horrible excuse. I've never ever had it pop, and I'd venture a guess that most people have never had it pop. So I'm hoping that what the group finder looks like on the PTS right now isn't a bug or an artificially created PTS only thing. It's always been a personal point of frustration for me that the old operations are basically discarded when they're so awesome. Nightmare TfB, and DP are supremely fun. My personal favorite is DP, and I actually got a pug group through the hard mode version over say 6 hours or so on a Saturday once which was insanely satisfying. It's too bad they dont get any love. Well, I think the dread masters were superior villains, but I digress.

 

I do tend to get frustrated with some players, and their attitudes. I just wish they'd try. I wish they'd not drag things down because they refuse to learn mechanics. I get really frustrated with people who want everything to be a tactical level event (I think tacticals are basically ruining the game, but that's my own view I wouldn't argue with anyone who likes them). Overall though, I really feel like this problem solves itself if we have a "progression" type system that stems from the groupfinder. Have casuals "unlock" tiers of operations by beating the easier ones first. Tier 1- EV, KP, and I dunno TC since TC isn't exactly rocket science. Tier 2 could be dread masters so EC, TfB, SnV, Df, DP. Tier 3 Rav and ToS. All 8 man so groups can actually form. Give out ultimate comms (something significant like I dunno 100 ultimate comms for unlocking a tier since there shouldn't be this hatred of letting people get those. I'd rather have a casual in 198 comm gear than anything lower anyway). See where that takes us.

 

You're right though, they are being thrown into the fire without any support system. I definitely agree with you there.

[AshlaBoga]

I'd rather they buff Story Revan than nerf Story Underlurker.

 

The difference between SM Revan and HM Revan is the biggest difference between any SM and HM boss in this game so far.

 

If they buffed SM Revan then the gap wouldn't be as big.

[Grayseven]

Pug as in i spammed the fleet with one other guildie for 2 of the groups. the other i was pugged into. none of the three had more than 3 members from a single guild. Not sure how im supposed to know if they are casual players or a hardcore raiders alt, but everyone seemed to have a basic idea how the fight was supposed to work even if they hadnt cleared it yet. I did not include my guild runs, or even runs with half guildies as a pug.

 

Without specifics, there is no way to tell what your pug group comp was. Reinforces the point that saying you did it doesn't make the fact that SM Underlurker is much harder than a SM boss should be for the majority of casuals to enjoy the operation.

 

In counterpoint, we took a full guild group half of which was our progression group and the other half was regular guildies that wanted to see what the fuss was about. In the end, we had to have our 8 man progression group down Underlurker to get our casual guildies to the last two bosses because some of our regulars just couldn't put the DPS out or stay alive. It happens, some people aren't as good as others and we knew that going in.

 

It's a SM boss and should be able to be defeated by casuals. I'm not saying it should be faceroll, but a SM boss shouldn't faceroll casual players either.

[Bachannal]

I think for those of us who aren't quite casual players, but aren't quite hardcore raiders - it's fights like Underlurker that just wind up being a pain point. Can they be done? Clearly they can be. Are they a giant PITA for anyone who isn't a pretty regular raider? Clearly they are.

 

In all honesty, I felt that way about Bulo too for a while, and apparently lots of other people thought so as well, hence the nerfs that happened to him. Now on SM, Bulo feels like an appropriately leveled boss. Still provides a challenge, but not so insanely overtuned that an average PUG can't fight their way through.

 

(I should add, I cleared Ravagers both before and after nerfs, so I do actually have a frame of reference here for comparison)

[DarthZaul]

Yes its seriously time to fix this. They nerfed Torque 16 man, why wont they nerf underlurker? I have killed it like 5 times in 4 months and all the other attempts have been wipefests. We have 4-5 people who used to regularly clear DF&DP HM and 2-3 pugs and its still too hard. They have to at least give an explanation of why they won't nerf it.

All they need to do is nerf the adds HP by about 20% and maybe the bosses HP a bit too and it will be fine. All the problems with the fight are caused by low DPS and you shouldn't be forced to bring a group of Powertechs cos their utilities can cheese the mechanics or virulence snipers cos they can leave DOTs on the boss/adds while behind the rocks, to be able to do enough DPS. Even with 5 DPS most groups struggle to kill the adds before the rocks come down. I know you only need to do 2.8k DPS per person and that sounds low, but its not like 2.x when fight DPS was just dummy DPS minus about 300-500. Now actual fight DPS can easily be 1000 less than, or even half dummy DPS.

It is utterly baffling that Bioware seem to be completely blind to how big of a problem this boss is.

People are getting bored of doing Ravagers 4-5 times a week because ToS is simply not an option. (Unless you see a pug for last 2 bosses)

Edited March 26, 2015 by DarthZaul

[Orizuru]

Would players here support a system akin to the determination buff WoW has in their RaidFinder? And by that I mean when you use Group Finder to form a 16m Ops group, wiping on a boss gives the group a stack of a buff that slowly increases their performance.

 

This would negate the need for a 4th difficulty. The Ops could still provide some challenge for the players who enjoy it, while at the same time it would allow the groups that struggle to slowly get stronger with each failed attempt on a boss to give them a better chance to meet the dps checks, heal checks, and even damage mitigation checks that the fights require.

 

For those not familiar with WoW's determination buff, its a system that gives a 1% increase to dps, hps, and damage mitigation to the entire group for each stack of determination the group has. Stacks are gained by wiping on a raid boss. I would prefer any implementation of this system in SWTOR to require the fight last a certain amount of time before the stack is earned though, because in WoW there were problems were some groups didn't even want to try the fights until they have X number of stack of the buff, so they would wipe on purpose a few times to stack the buff before they would make an honest attempt on the boss. I would like to avoid that happening here if possible. Just making the group be required to have at least one member alive 90 seconds into the fight should be enough to discourage this.

[TUXs]

Here's my compromise, based on what others in this thread are suggesting:

 

Story: Bosses provide no challenge at all. There are no mechanics checks, very lax dps checks, and exists only so people can see the story. Since story is all you care about, this mode drops no comms, no gear, and 1/3 the credits it currently does.

 

Normal: Current story mode.

 

Hard: No change.

 

Nightmare: No change.

I'm against "normal" mode...that leaves it far too open to the situation we're currently in where it's content that a fair share can't complete. This is a video game that sells itself based on the STORY...STORY mode needs to be exactly that.

 

I don't want NO boss mechanics, I just want them to be boss mechanics that most of the player base can complete...the very casual included.

[DOHboy]

I'm against "normal" mode...that leaves it far too open to the situation we're currently in where it's content that a fair share can't complete. This is a video game that sells itself based on the STORY...STORY mode needs to be exactly that.

 

I don't want NO boss mechanics, I just want them to be boss mechanics that most of the player base can complete...the very casual included.

 

see thats the thing...the "casuals" already have a story mode. Its the weekly and the solo mode at the end of Yavin.

 

The story ends in the same result, the only difference is that you are not required to complete the operations to know how the story continues...result is the same, just a different path to getting there.

 

IF all you want is story, finish the weekly, if you want to gear for HM operations, run SM operations.

Edited March 26, 2015 by DOHboy

[Warhams]

Another big point which has not really been mentioned in this thread is the Cross Mechanic on people with older machines that barely go above 10-15 FPS due to various effects on that fight or with ping higher than 300. I play on the Progenitor and we have people from as far as India playing in my guild and the problem is, the cross is still very Inconsistent.

 

I'm sure you have all seen the screenshots posted many times by other people on the Cross mechanic where on most peoples screens, everyone is in the Correct position but on a person on a slow computer or bad ping, hes in the Wrong position (but on his computer hes in the place where hes supposed to be). So what happens? you get both a GREEN and a RED cross, aka you take damage, even though you all did the mechanic perfectly.

 

Other than cheesing with powertechs, there is no way to avoid this situation, other than saying those with slow computers/low FPS or those with higher than 200 ping should not be allowed to do the ops as they punish the rest of the raid. I don't understand how Bioware can code the cross mechanic so that it appears differently on different peoples computers and causing wipes.

 

I get a lot of frustrated people, both guildies and Pugs who cause the Cross to fail through no fault of their own. I even had a few screenshot themselves as correctly in the cross lane but Everyone in the raid still take damage months ago after Bioware said they 'fixed' the cross mechanic to be more 'consistant'. Been the same since.

[JSitruc]

see thats the thing...the "casuals" already have a story mode. Its the weekly and the solo mode at the end of Yavin.

 

The story ends in the same result, the only difference is that you are not required to complete the operations to know how the story continues...result is the same, just a different path to getting there.

 

IF all you want is story, finish the weekly, if you want to gear for HM operations, run SM operations.

 

+100 points to DOHboy