Sith Juggernauts Extremely Under-Powered Discussion?

[Sookster]

A well speced immortal Jugg with crushing blow, backhand and 2 boxes (heavy handed & decimate) that boosts smash to 15% and 30% damage (total 45%) along with improved sundering assault and stack strength instead of endurance, pretty good damage output for a tank spec.

[Lord_Rezo]

Bingo, except I think the difficulty in swtor is more new wave than old school.

 

People just forget how impossible it used to be to level as a tank or healer in the old school MMOs. As a new MMO with old school difficulty, just try AION. That game failed because leveling was so difficult.

 

I think the tank paradigm in swtor is just different because the non-elite trash doesn't hit very hard. So, when you tank the lower level stuff, there are many mobs that you can pretty much ignore and let dps burn em down.

 

As for soloing elites, that used to be impossible in every game if you were anywhere near the level of the elite. There are still tales told about ones first encounter with Hogger. In swtor, that's not an issue.

 

Thing is, Hogger was an elite for 5 or 6 people. Here, an Elite Mob is like a world rare or more like a strong boss. Hogger would be a Champion, a mob you CANT kill alone, but is killable. Thing is, Juggernaut dps (i mean Vengeance, as the other tree is extremely overpower but dependant on Smash) cant tank properly, cant dps properly, and just cant heal. Whats the point?

[Oddzball]

cant tank properly, cant dps properly, and just cant heal. Whats the point?

 

YES yes yes!

 

Thats pretty much exactly how I feel.

 

Subpar DPS compared to every other class.

 

Holding agro in groups of mobs is a PAIN

 

You get ONE healing ability as far as I know. If you are soloing and get in a bind without Quinn out, IE a roamer comes in from somewhere, and your heal is on cooldown from something else, you are BONED.

 

Ever try actually doing your class quests AT the level they say you can do them at? Yeah BS on that.

 

 

When you have to kill that Jedi master on Tatoo WITHOUT a companion and its him and his apprentice and you do it at the level it SAYS you can do it at, you get owned 9/10 times. I died tons of times on that, had to go gain another level, then try again.

 

Edited January 3, 2012 by Oddzball

[mSum]

I think it's good for people to look at the class and see what's wrong and right, but this is a new MMO. I've played other MMO's and there are always overpowered and underpowered classes and usually it changes every few months if not faster.

 

Enjoy leveling and give it some time. IMO Bioware did a great job making leveling fun. Hopefully they will focus on tweaking the classes next.

Edited January 3, 2012 by mSum

[Heaviermetal]

Not to say this is the right way to design a tank in an MMO but if you have ever played a tank in other MMO's, this has been the case for all MMO's I have played a tank in.

I've maxed a tank class in Wow, Warhammer, Everquest 2, Guild Wars, and now Swotor. The tank classes have always been the hardest and slowest to level if speced for tanking.

They also feel as if they are doing the least amount of damage, but in the end, raiding, dungeons, whatever, you are always the holding force and I still see it when Im doing them in this game.

 

I really think our class needs some work, some streamlining and buffs for all the damage abilitie that dont work on elites before anything else tbh.

 

I would really like to see some stats soon though

Edited January 3, 2012 by Heaviermetal

[Brightglade]

SI/JC gets 2 sec 150% speed increase. Retarded. Probably the most unbalanced skill in the game.

 

I like to call it,

 

RUSH LIMBAUGH !!

 

Haley's Comet is a second choice.

[Noth]

My thoughs on red :/...

 

Juggernauts arent enjoyable... yet, i hope Bioware do something about that.

 

- Juggernauts dont have CC, only Force Push (knockback) and Force Choke (channeled).

 

- Juggernauts dont have a big hit with long cooldown, the strongest hit is Smash empowered and it hits for 3-5k critical hit on PvE (because the expertise bonus doesnt apply to PvE).

 

- The "survivality" of the Vengeance and Rage specs is... wait, there is?

 

- No stuns, just Intimidating Roar, and the enemy wont remain there.

 

- Ravage is a channeling strong, but the enemy just step one meter away and the skills just stops.

 

The sad part is that the smash build is the only build that we seem to hit as hard as other classes.

[Locustone]

I'v played on my Sith Juggernaut for a good 30-40 hours and am currently level 28, i know people hate comparisants to WoW but it has to be said, i'v read on other posts and have noticed it myself, Spells & Abilities that are instant casts taking 0.5-1 second to cast from engine lagg or something but par from that:

 

- Other Class's that are not even tanking spec seem to have higher Health / Endurance than me even when they've not spec'd and or got the gear for it.

 

- Taking on 3 + Mobs takes your health to around 1/4 if spells are on CD, If you tank 1 Elite mob and "Accidently" pull another, its game over.

 

- Heavy Armor? What.. I'v seen Medium Armor DPS Warriors take down Elite after Elite faster and more efficently than myself, after inspecting said person, they had 1000 - 1200 Armor, i had near 6000, its like Armor isn't Armor, its just for show...

 

- I have spec'd correctly, followed a few guides and experimented myself, nothing seems to affect my Character, Yes i can Buff and get the Defense Bonus but its nothing exciting.

 

- The Damage output is just horrible, after gathering commendations for hours and grinding through quests 1 by 1 on low level gear, to then upgrade said gear with commendations, new lighsaber, new everything, NOTHING CHANGES... Health increase yes but Damage... nop.

 

 

Imo the Sith Warrior Juggernaut is the most underpowered class in the game at the moment, its just not enjoyable, i played a warrior class in WoW tanking instances, taking on over 10 mobs at a time, i know the Damage system is different here but as a "Tank" you should be able to manage more than 6 mobs at a time...

 

anyone else having this as a tank?

 

I completly agree. Those who argue othewise need to play other tanking classes as well to see the difference. I like the playstyle and the dificulty, but why can't we put out the same damage as other tanking classes. My assasin friend hit 50 the one day sooner than me and he has 3k more health with more green items and damage mitigation stats are almost identical.

[Locustone]

A well speced immortal Jugg with crushing blow, backhand and 2 boxes (heavy handed & decimate) that boosts smash to 15% and 30% damage (total 45%) along with improved sundering assault and stack strength instead of endurance, pretty good damage output for a tank spec.

 

You don't know what you are talking about... I have the same spec and my damage at 50 doesn't come close to the damage my BH puts out at 40. Play other tanking classes and you will see the light.

[Locustone]

The sad part is that the smash build is the only build that we seem to hit as hard as other classes.

 

Not even close... You should try other classes before you assume you come close.

[Locustone]

Juggernauts dont have a big hit with long cooldown, the strongest hit is Smash empowered and it hits for 3-5k critical.

 

I'd like to see a screen shot of that 5k crit with smash... I am smash build and the highest I have ever hit a mob with this is 2.6k. You may be stacking strength instead of defense stats I think, which means you are not really a tank.

[Noth]

Not even close... You should try other classes before you assume you come close.

 

I have tried other classes. Most other classes can hit for 4k+. The smash build is the only thing that can reach 4k regularly and even then it's only one hit instead of multiple.

[Locustone]

I have tried other classes. Most other classes can hit for 4k+. The smash build is the only thing that can reach 4k regularly and even then it's only one hit instead of multiple.

 

Regular meaning after every cooldown on smash does not come close to the damage output other tanking classes have.

[Sookster]

You don't know what you are talking about... I have the same spec and my damage at 50 doesn't come close to the damage my BH puts out at 40. Play other tanking classes and you will see the light.

 

Wait... did I say anything about comparing to other classes? I was talking about Juggernaut, period.

[youwillburn]

Wait... did I say anything about comparing to other classes? I was talking about Juggernaut, period.

 

But that's how you tell where the class is in the totem pole. And in this case the worst tank.

[johanlofdahl]

I'd like to see a screen shot of that 5k crit with smash... I am smash build and the highest I have ever hit a mob with this is 2.6k. You may be stacking strength instead of defense stats I think, which means you are not really a tank.

 

here's one i found on the internet:

http://guard-this.com/images/nyan/30k.jpg

[Sookster]

Yes to Locustone's request on finding screenshots, I've seen a Jugg pull 5-6.5K damage.

[dorkvid]

Cleared Eternity Vault hardmode, do I need to say more?

 

You killed Soa on hardmode?

[Noth]

here's one i found on the internet:

http://guard-this.com/images/nyan/30k.jpg

 

Please note he has pretty much every single damage buff on him. Because of that, despite what he might say, that is not a regular occurrence. Other classes doing 3k-4k without buffs is a regular occurrence and they don't need pocket healers to get it off either.

[Lord_Rezo]

I'd like to see a screen shot of that 5k crit with smash... I am smash build and the highest I have ever hit a mob with this is 2.6k. You may be stacking strength instead of defense stats I think, which means you are not really a tank.

 

Why should a tank pick a talent tree which says "DAMAGE"?

 

I am Juggernaut DPS, i dislike tanking and i like making the most damage i can before dying, BioWare promised that a Juggernaut DPS in a DPS tree could do the same damage than another class in another DPS tree.

 

Does anybody knows if any dev said anything about making "something useful" to the Vengeance tree?

[Baizak]

But that's how you tell where the class is in the totem pole. And in this case the worst tank.

 

Maybe at lower levels, but once in the late 30's and early 40's Jugg tanks shine.

[Hustletron]

I'm level 50 immortal spec, 31/10/0, and the only thing I agree with is the Armor complaint, I have ~40% damage reduction from armor and yet, if I pull 4+ enemies, in my opinion, I feel I'm taking too much damage.

 

I have ~27% defense chance, ~24% shield chance, unbuffed(not taking into account blade barricade and no quake on enemies).

 

I don't have a problem holding threat on 3 or 4 MELEE mobs, it's when they are ranged it becomes an issue because they are also usually spread out.

 

I find myself saber throwing one, tabbing, charging to another + savage kick, tabbing, force choking, tabbing, force shout.

 

By that time hopefully the DPS isn't attacking one I have the least threat on, but realistically, I've lost threat on all but the last mob I attacked due to AOE, healing threat, etc etc.

 

My other complaint would be that at times I have issues building rage and I don't really understand why the Devs would make it so difficult to build rage, I'm going to have to experiment with the mechanic because I feel mobs beating on you should generate more rage than it currently is however if someone who has say a 36% defense chance like me with quake and blade barricade up, the mobs are only hitting me 2/3 of the time which would slow rage building.

 

I think any defense should also generate rage, dodge, parry, deflect, etc. If we could get that then I think AOE tanking would be slitghly easier as it would allow us to spam sweeping strikes more instead of dumping my rage on it, then having to sunder/assault to get more rage, then sweeping again.

 

Just my opinion on what I've been experiencing.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Hustletron

[MaGariShun]

Please note he has pretty much every single damage buff on him. Because of that, despite what he might say, that is not a regular occurrence. Other classes doing 3k-4k without buffs is a regular occurrence and they don't need pocket healers to get it off either.

 

My impale crits for about 3,2k and then leaves a dot, my vicious throw always crits for 3,5k (about 95% crit chance with talent). So I'd say I do 3-4k hits on a regular basis too. Shatter is just a dot, but it already crits with 2k and then the ticks do their work. Mind that I am in no way stacking surge, being only at about 75% bonus crit damage while having 28% crit chance and about 1300 strength + 250 power. These are numbers I see popping up in PvP and PvE likewise, ofc they most likely get lower if the enemy player is stacking expertise or has a lot of damage reduction / armor

[GeneralDan]

I'm currently level 42. I've actually been impressed by the damage the Juggernaut can do in Rage spec. Then again, I wasn't expecting to do that much. It may be a little lower on average than other classes but still very respectable.

 

That said, when soloing I can fight groups of enemies 5 levels below me and still get killed without Quinn(occasional death, usually quite close to death). I don't understand. I have the level 40 PvP set, the level 42 PvP lightsaber and run around a 30% damage reduction with around 800 Endurance (might be a little low compared to other classes - which is odd). When I play in Immortal spec my damage goes way down but my survivability does not have a major increase.

 

I do very well in PvP and its smooth sailing in Flashpoints but I can't solo at all. This is unfortunate because I'm mostly playing this game for the storyline. Gotta love BioWare storylines.

 

I've been doing okay mostly partying with a healing specced Sorcerer friend of mine but whenever he's not there even planets below my level can be challenging.

 

I hope its not just because I'm doing something horribly wrong.

Edited January 6, 2012 by GeneralDan

[Noth]

My impale crits for about 3,2k and then leaves a dot, my vicious throw always crits for 3,5k (about 95% crit chance with talent). So I'd say I do 3-4k hits on a regular basis too. Shatter is just a dot, but it already crits with 2k and then the ticks do their work. Mind that I am in no way stacking surge, being only at about 75% bonus crit damage while having 28% crit chance and about 1300 strength + 250 power. These are numbers I see popping up in PvP and PvE likewise, ofc they most likely get lower if the enemy player is stacking expertise or has a lot of damage reduction / armor

 

They do get lower, they start dropping off fast. I'm at about 8% expertise and never see hits that high unless the person has no expertise. So in effect while we scale well with gear, so do otehr classes and in effect we drop of back to level sub what other classes end up doing.