Sith Juggernauts Extremely Under-Powered Discussion?

[VRBW]

i would have to agree lol i did comment with out reading the whole thing and i only speak in terms of pve. but i would have to agree we do lack good internal/ele dr, 4% is just to little and i have not seen any mods that help that out yet.

 

The thing is, armour and damage resistance isn't an issue in PvE, because if you're taking physical damage as DPS, your tank is doing something wrong.

 

The reason people are complaining is that Juggernaught does noticably worse damage than Assassin. That makes sense, until you realise that we get exactly the same type of skill trees as they do (2 DPS, 1 Tank), and we aren't appreciably better tanks.

 

We're no more a tank class than they are, yet we're much worse DPS.

[HectorCasan]

Should buff all abilitys that were nerfed from 15 meters to 10 meters, like force choke, push, scream, etc.

[Sun-Runner]

a jug is a "TANK" we should never be able to out dps a dps class. if its i cant hold agro issue its most likely the tanks fault sorry

 

A Juggernaut has three trees. One for tanking, two for damage.

 

A Powertech has three trees. One for tanking, two for damage.

 

An Assassin has three trees. One for tanking, two for damage.

 

All three are viable tanks. All three should be viable damage; two classes are viable damage. Guess which one isn't?

 

Juggernauts are not only "tanks". Powertech are not only "tanks". Assassins are not only "tanks". Why are you telling Juggernauts that its' okay their damage is subpar because they are tanks but aren't screaming about the other tanks' significantly better damage?

[Ravothian]

Bit of advice: You are playing the MOST gear dependent class. Get Slicing so you can keep your gear up to date while you are leveling up. The reason you feel underpowered is because you rely a lot on having solid equipment.

[Apokalypsis]

Bit of advice: You are playing the MOST gear dependent class. Get Slicing so you can keep your gear up to date while you are leveling up. The reason you feel underpowered is because you rely a lot on having solid equipment.

 

Thats the probe we are underpowered...

 

I have been crafting my gear and I do ok, but I feel that I need a lot to kill a target, or much more than other classes, and that doesnt give me more proteccion.

 

Jugg Rage dps tree here.

[AlistairC]

Bit of advice: You are playing the MOST gear dependent class. Get Slicing so you can keep your gear up to date while you are leveling up. The reason you feel underpowered is because you rely a lot on having solid equipment.

 

How do you figure that?

If we make the obvious comparison to WoW it doesnt seem to share that similarity since I dont see a rage gain from crits with Sundering Assault or Strike. If I missed something please tell me (Level 45 so far).

 

So, unless Im mistaken about the first part it doesnt come down to gear directly, but to the class and its abilities.

[Fyrne]

To add a little fuel to the fire:

 

I leveled entirely with a friend who was healer, so I had no problems with anything. However, once he dropped out and I tried doing my final class quest at 49, I got smacked in the face and couldn't recover.

 

The final fights seemed to be nigh impossible on a Immo/Veng Juggernaut, even with Stims, Medpacs and a Companion that was either healing or dpsing. I didn't try again with 50 and some better gear though, so I still think it was the simple fact that I just didn't care what I was wearing until 50 because I always had my pockethealer with me.

 

But being 50 for a while and now wearing some 6+ Champion pieces: I can't crit above 2500, ever. Even with a +225 Surge Relic my Shout crits for some 1900 max, while I just got hit in the face by a Gunslinger for a 5500 opening (albeit on my Level 12 Bounty Hunter, I doubt he could crit my Juggernaut for that much )

 

Not really seeing a major problem with the class though. I do what I do best - I soak damage and still smash people in the face pretty damn hard.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Fyrne

[KingSnake]

In all my Jug leveling (currely 45) i've never felt underpowered or weak, UNTIL Voss.

 

I'm not sure what the issue is... but on Voss, even level strongs are REALLY strong... i just can't beat two at once. I've done it.. maybe once, and i'm talking skin of my teeth, clicking channel haterd hoping to get some HP before my health buff crashes and kills me.. (which happens... alot more often on Voss then anywhere else.. becuase, it's not happened anywhere else....)

 

I'm totally beaten in this one area quest, it spawns 2 strongs. I think they are 46. One level over me. But just can't beat them.. and i've tried.. and tried... and tried. I've rotated compainons, tried to interupt... tried to CC with my sorry CC skills... only to watch my pet brake it.. then die, like almost as soon as the fight start, maybe from sheer fright... They have kicked my ***** 10 ways to sunday and i'm not sure WHY... i can beat , and have beaten lvl 46 golds of these mobs.

 

Tonight, is the first night, i've felt weak. And the first time i've log in utter frustration. (couldn't get anyone to take 2 mins of there day to help me either... NICE... and i HATE asking for help with something i'm pretty sure i should be able to beat... 2 strongs should be soloable...)

 

Anyways, all in all.. i'm hoping this is a case of overtuned mobs, and not class weakness, cause, up till now, it's not been very weak.. *shrug*

 

Time will tell. And, if anyone has any advice...... I'm taking a run at them again tomarrow.

[deserttfoxx]

Every class is almost exactly the same.

 

Every class has a 4 sec stun, a cc, a damage reducer, channel attacks, dots, support skills, etc....

 

If you sat down and compared every class skill by skill there would be very minor discrepencies.

 

Such as...

 

SI/JC gets 2 sec 150% speed increase. Retarded. Probably the most unbalanced skill in the game.

 

Juggernauts dont have a 4 second stun(unless they are 26 points into the immortal tree), or a cc.

 

However, juggernauts are weak before level 40 to be honest, once you have a full talent tree to work with, its a different story. Dont get me wrong, we still need to be revamped, but we arent underpowered, our skills are just poorly laid out.

[Naselus]

How do you figure that?

If we make the obvious comparison to WoW it doesnt seem to share that similarity since I dont see a rage gain from crits with Sundering Assault or Strike. If I missed something please tell me (Level 45 so far).

 

So, unless Im mistaken about the first part it doesnt come down to gear directly, but to the class and its abilities.

 

A major part of our mitigation comes directly from wearing heavy armour, which is directly gear related. Our Threat is tied fairly heavily to our DPS, which is almost entirely dependent on our lightsabre. Our health is only increased by armour, rather than any skillpoint-based buffs. While we have a lot of excellent c/ds for avoidance, most of them are skill-unlocks which come late in the tree, so you're utterly gear-based until about level 30 anyway. Compared to an assassin or a BH, we're massively more reliant on having upto date equipment to do our role effectively in the early game, and it's noticably much more difficult for us when we switch planets until we get high level gear... using anything more than 2-3 levels old, or green kit, and you will suffer as a Jugg.

 

On the other hand, using fit-for-level equipment, suddenly you become an unkillable threat machine. Good gear puts us toe-to-toe with other classes, but poor gear puts us behind even a naked BH.

[Rawrjulian]

A Juggernaut has three trees. One for tanking, two for damage.

 

A Powertech has three trees. One for tanking, two for damage.

 

An Assassin has three trees. One for tanking, two for damage.

 

All three are viable tanks. All three should be viable damage; two classes are viable damage. Guess which one isn't?

 

Juggernauts are not only "tanks". Powertech are not only "tanks". Assassins are not only "tanks". Why are you telling Juggernauts that its' okay their damage is subpar because they are tanks but aren't screaming about the other tanks' significantly better damage?

 

lol if you read two post after i aggreed that my post before was stupid would of saved you a lot of time

[WarSiren]

I personally feel Juggs are fine only real issue I have is it feels every other class gets their CC before us, but whatever thems the rolls we gotta take.

[Strwrsrld]

Ive said this on the other forums bashing Juggernaut. This class calls for managing RAGE which actually takes thinking before u smash buttons, so what im saying is this class isnt for NOOBS. If you want a simple class to play, try sorcerer with no CD lightning from Wraith skill if i remember correctly, perfect class for hardly no thought required. I never had help one time on any mission (beside heroics) I SOLOED everything with Malavai and before i had him it was vette and I. So please quit complaining that these guys suck when they dont, yah maybe our taunts could use a lower CD but thats about all im seeing so far.

[ReFlexionn]

none of the classes can hit me for 3k. not sure if anyone hit me for more than 2.

 

charge, choke, smash, crush, kick, oliberate, smash (9sec cd) ure dead. enjoy. and u cant even do anything. true bh can do 400k dmg per BG but they do aoe dmg, while i do 200k to single targets mostly. 6-7medals always. sooo yeah. ****.

 

only crap is that u have to charge in group of foes and they can focus you easily.

 

are we talking open world pvp or warzone pvp?

[Calvadore]

Love the Jugg only Problem I have is in PvP against Sage/Sorcerer and Operative/Mirror.

The Former (if good) just outheals my Damage so I mostly just interrupt (if it works damn you Skill Delay) and make sure they don't heal.

 

The Latter however can bring me in the damn Stun to 50% pretty fast but to be fair these one's are rare but still bloody crazy I just can't kill these Guys.

[Dregas]

You know I usually don't reply to post on forums, in fact this is my first post ever now that I think about it! But I feel something very important needs to be said here. When it comes to tanking in every single MMO, it's not mitigation or hp levels that are king, it ALWAYS comes down to DPS and self heals. So many developers gimp their tanks horribly by not following this rule, because of some fear they will become overpowered.

 

No matter how much dmg resistance you get, unless it's something like 95% resistance to everything, low dmg will always get a tank killed. For example if you are on your jugg and jump into a lvl 40 mob of three, they will tear your head off and leave you in severe need of a heal afterwards DESPITE your gear. Now why is that? Simple, It's because jugg mitigation is not balanced with their dmg output. It takes Juggs WAY too long to kill mobs and as a result, more enemies are still alive to throw tons of dmg your way while you are still working on that first droid you force charged. Currently heavy armor does NOT offer sufficient mitigation to match the low dmg juggs put out, and with a complete lack of a competent heal they are even more squishy. You can even apply this to a group situation...try grouping up with a squad who does low dmg and run a flashpoint. Watch how much of a headache it is for the healer to keep you alive. THAT is inexcusable for class that's supposed to be in "heavy armor".

 

So basically what i am saying here, is that despite what people say, tanks must have very good dps for their own survival. Right now Juggernauts completely lack the mitigation and self healing abilities to compensate for their low dmg. It's why I deleted mine. It has nothing to do with skill, it's just bad class design.

[Wildfae]

So basically what i am saying here, is that despite what people say, tanks must have very good dps for their own survival. Right now Juggernauts completely lack the mitigation and self healing abilities to compensate for their low dmg. It's why I deleted mine. It has nothing to do with skill, it's just bad class design.

 

Just, no. I have tanked in a lot of MMO's, and a tank always has issues soloing compared to other classes. The reason being is they are made with the thought that they have people filling in the DPS and healing roles around them. And conversely healers always seem to have it easy. Because even if a healer gets in a bind, they have the tools to kite and heal themselves. This game is really no different. QQing about not doing enough damage as a tank is dumb. QQing about not doing enough heals as a tank is dumb. Its like a healer coming on and saying that they cant kill anyone in PvP. Their job isn't to kill. A tanks job isn't to do damage. Its to absorb damage for their team. if you are saying that you cant handle tanking for your team then im sorry. There are plenty of people out here that would offer you advice. But saying that Jugg is broken because you cant DPS as a tank is just plain stupid.

That all said, an adjustment for how heavy armor works is in order I think. However balance between PvP and PvE is just as crucial as class balance. Whats good for 1v1 soloing in PvE could destroy whatever balance there is in PvP. I mean imagine having more defence as a lvl 50 Jugg in Huttball. Or throwing is more self healing for a Jugg. or adding to their DPS. none of those options seem like good ideas if you consider specific areas of the game.

[Dregas]

I'm not sure you even read my post before deciding it was another QQ. Because all your basically saying is a tank is defined: as a class that cannot do anything for themselves and must rely on other classes for everything.

 

That right there is the problem. This is why people are complaining. With cooldowns and armor considered Juggs BARELY take less dmg than everyone else. Especially when compared to assassins and powertechs. Leaving juggs with nothing but crappy dmg, awful utility, and no way to heal themselves a little to take the pressure off the healer. Whether it be in pve or pvp you are effectively a slow fat kid with a nerf bat in a gun fight.

 

And i'm sorry if you don't understand but dmg = dead bodies that can't hit back = the best form of mitigation. Tanks don't have to be solo LEGENDS but they should at least be able to take on NORMAL mobs without having to stop and rage heal every single time unless they blow their cds. The reason they can't do that now is because their dmg is too low and heavy armor does not add enough mitigation to fill in the gap. The other TANK classes in the game do NOT have such a problem. That is the reality and that is why people are voicing their opinion. I wanted to play a jugg because the name made them sound like one tough son of a gun who could dish it out and take it...and right now they do neither.

[Eldoth]

IN warzones , yes jugg is underpowered in comparison , anyone who tells you differently is a merc hoping they wont get the nerf bat soon

[Samous]

IN warzones , yes jugg is underpowered in comparison , anyone who tells you differently is a merc hoping they wont get the nerf bat soon

 

I have never felt under powered in a Warzone, not one time.

[DarkInsidious]

I have never felt under powered in a Warzone, not one time.

 

Well clearly you haven't played a Bounty Hunter Mercenary Arsenal spamming tracer missle yet.

 

Warrior is by far underpowerd. Requiring the use of at least 10 different skills to take down one opponent.

 

Merc takes 3. Tracer x3 railshot unload. Usually does around a 10k-12k burst for me. If I don't finish them with that my instant Rocket Punch usually finishes the job considering it's probably my highest damage dealer.

 

Having a BH @ 34 and a Jugg @ 41 I can easily say that Warriors are severely under powered.

[Happypike]

I could not agree more. My jugg is level 42, and it takes FOREVER to kill mobs and im vengeance spec with full level 40 warzone gear. Its just stupid. Pvp is a fricking joke to.

[DarthRegnator]

Level 41 Immortal Juggernaut build and the only thing I am useful in PvP is to push single targets out of the way or lower damage output to other allies with Threatening Scream and Taunt. Ravage is the only decent damager I have and even that gets interrupted due to the unnecessary animation. Getting completed dominated by one Jedi Sage because I can't even deal enough damage to outweigh the healing and CC. My only saving grace is Chilling Scream to prevent kiting, but that doesn't always help all the time.

 

I don't know what this class needs...more utility? More DPS output? Or more mitigation? Or all of it. Unless you are not paired with a great healer, you won't stand a chance against other classes, solo-wise or not. It doesn't help either that you feel squishy despite being specialized in heavy armor.

 

This class has such great potential though.

Edited December 28, 2011 by DarthRegnator

[Samous]

Well clearly you haven't played a Bounty Hunter Mercenary Arsenal spamming tracer missle yet.

 

Warrior is by far underpowerd. Requiring the use of at least 10 different skills to take down one opponent.

 

Merc takes 3. Tracer x3 railshot unload. Usually does around a 10k-12k burst for me. If I don't finish them with that my instant Rocket Punch usually finishes the job considering it's probably my highest damage dealer.

 

Having a BH @ 34 and a Jugg @ 41 I can easily say that Warriors are severely under powered.

 

I find on my Jugg @ 42 immortal spec that it takes at the very least 2 to take me down, and with a healer I am almost immortal.

 

I am not saying the Warrior is not under powered, but I am saying its not quite as bad as some make it out to be.

 

DPS is lower then the other tanks, and AOE threat is horrible.

The tools I have in my tool box are much better CC wise then any tank I have played yet.

If we got some of the things we really do need, I expect we would be considered OP more so then the BH/Assassin ever thought to be. Not to say those things we need, AOE threat more dmg should not be given us, and slightly better def stats.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Samous

[Eldoth]

make force scream usable on players would be a step in the right direction