Sith Juggernauts Extremely Under-Powered Discussion?

[Happypike]

Force Scream is usable on players...

[Samous]

Force Scream is usable on players...

 

think he mean cone aoe....really i think it should have been an AOE from start.

[SithMudava]

I'm sick of low dmg.

 

I'm sick of rage build up in pvp it's the worst of all.

 

I'm sick of low aggro build up.

 

I'm sick of skills that i can't use on elite and players.

 

I'm sick of running around like mad to hold aggro on 5+ pve pack.

 

I'm sick of being so squishy in PvP - yet i have defense and expertise.

 

YET I LOVE MY JUGG!

 

FIX MY JUGG!

[Mungyun]

I don't have much trouble tanking on my 32 jug. i only have about 7k hp and i will use a stim, putting me at close to 7.5k, plus any buffs. Aoe threat can be a little bit of an issue at times but with aoe taunts and backhand, i can usually keep 5 or so mobs on me np.

 

I will admit that i have noticed a lag with instant spells like you said. I'll be at one mob and start running to another mob and hit smash when i get to that mob and the ability doesnt hit them even though i was standing at them when i used it. A little annoying but i can work around it

[RighteousMF]

I've noticed quite a bit of skill lag. It seems to take forever for Savage Kick to go off after the target is slowed. The absolute worse for me is when I use force push in huttball. I'll "attempt" to push the ball carrier away from our goal and over the drop off but quite a few times it has actually pushed them behind me and across the goal. Complete opposite of what I intended it to do.

[AlistairC]

A major part of our mitigation comes directly from wearing heavy armour, which is directly gear related. Our Threat is tied fairly heavily to our DPS, which is almost entirely dependent on our lightsabre. Our health is only increased by armour, rather than any skillpoint-based buffs. While we have a lot of excellent c/ds for avoidance, most of them are skill-unlocks which come late in the tree, so you're utterly gear-based until about level 30 anyway. Compared to an assassin or a BH, we're massively more reliant on having upto date equipment to do our role effectively in the early game, and it's noticably much more difficult for us when we switch planets until we get high level gear... using anything more than 2-3 levels old, or green kit, and you will suffer as a Jugg.

 

On the other hand, using fit-for-level equipment, suddenly you become an unkillable threat machine. Good gear puts us toe-to-toe with other classes, but poor gear puts us behind even a naked BH.

 

Im sorry, but this doesnt make sense.

If we are equipment reliant because our stat gets better, then every class is relying on their equipment. So, basically the gap when we reach good gear is intact since the other classes also get new gear.

 

What you describe seems more to be a case of the class needing the gear as a crutch to even make it.

 

Its a bit early to tell tho as there is little to no valuable indicators to go on (gief combat log).

[Naselus]

Im sorry, but this doesnt make sense.

If we are equipment reliant because our stat gets better, then every class is relying on their equipment. So, basically the gap when we reach good gear is intact since the other classes also get new gear.

 

What you describe seems more to be a case of the class needing the gear as a crutch to even make it.

 

Its a bit early to tell tho as there is little to no valuable indicators to go on (gief combat log).

 

Yes, every class is to an extent gear-reliant. But that does not mean all classes are equally gear-reliant, or that all classes benefit equally from gear upgrades. The gap does not remain intact if the jug becomes 30% more effective from every new bit of kit, while the assassin becomes 20% more effective.

 

Immortal juggs get virtually no damage increases in their tree at all, so we're basically relying entirely on strength from gear and light saber base damage for our DPS and threat. We use heavy armour, usually giving us 40-50% mitigation from armour rating, which is pretty important to us, but is automatically gear-based. To pull level with other classes, we need to be better geared than they are.

 

However, we have a lot of useful tools in our talent tree which other classes cannot get from gear - like damage reductions, cost drops, in-combat self-buffs, rage generation etc. We have multiple skills that rely on successfully defending against attacks - including several on retaliate, one of our main DPS skills - which needs high shield/def etc to use. These mean that while all tanks benefit from getting +5% defense from gear, juggs actively NEED the defense from gear to bring them into their own. These skills become much more powerful as you get gear to use them with, so a well-geared jugg increases in power more per upgrade than other classes.

 

So yes, to an extent gear is a crutch at the lower-end of the gear scale - a poorly-geared jugg is less use than any other poorly-geared class, as he can't hold threat and is squishy. A well-geared jugg can put out enough damage from high damge rage abilities to hold aggro easily, and has immense mitigation potential on top of his gear's immense mitigation. Our primary purpose is to be unkillable, and with decent gear we are more or less unkillable - but we have nothing else, so if you don't have the equipment to be unkillable you're useless.

 

I'm not saying this is an ideal situation, but it is pretty obvious when you upgrade gear just how much it does for you as a jugg, compared to as a BH or a sorc or whatever. It would be preferable if we had more 'natural' defense from skillpoints, so we are on the bottom rung of the ladder without gear, rather than needing to get into some decent blues by level 35 and staying in upto date blue kit from then on. It would be nice if we had any major DPS outside of our lightsaber, too. But we get so much better per upgrade that it risks making the best-geared juggs way too powerful - they'll retaliate every c/d, rather than missing them from time to time; they'll be literally unkillable for anyone using kinetic or ranged damage; and they'll have so much rage and such cost reductions on their abilities that they'll be able to constantly spam their highest-damage outputs at all times.

[anhtice]

OK i've read through all your crap. most of it is crap or incomplete.

 

Yes a TANK class can't do things by itself and you all say to not compare this game like WoW. Yea that's true, this game is completely different than WoW because you get a companion. Having a companion to fill in almost every role lets you level up with any build no problem. I've leveled up with Veng or Immortal, I honestly like Veng more because it takes a shorter time to kill things and I enjoy playing DPS more than tanking. Tanking in this game is kinda boring. When I lvl up as Veng, I am using Jaesa. I've never really had a problem leveling, the only times I truly died and was like Oh.. was when I wasnt using abilities and was reading/chatting in guildchat. You have to use your abilities and still play with a DPS mindset (use your rage efficiently and kill the boss asap before it kills you)

 

For PVP I use Veng, I have not tried out Rage yet since I am only 42, but overall every single WZ i've been in, unless its a premade and we get slaughtered, I am usually at the top. I in no way do as much dmg as a powertech but now that I think about it, most of their dmg is aoe. They fulfill a different role. Really I want to highlight what I truly believe makes this class a monster for pvp.

 

 

Force Charge (and Intercede) - is under a pretty low cooldown. Most of the time when the target is running away, Force Charge is back up. Obliterate in addition to this, really makes you a Juggernaut - an unstoppable force. No class can intercept or charge like us, If you look at WoW, when rogues got shadowstep, they were a completely different class. That's what the Juggernaut is and what makes it different from all the classes. Operatives/BHs don't really have an ability like that. They don't have the insane offensive mobility that we have.

 

also if the target is distancing itself from you, you always have vicious throw. the only reason really a target would be running from you is if its about to die etc. and Vthrow will be at 60+% crit.

 

As a Juggernaut we can make a 1v1 turn into a 2v1 instantly from almost anywhere. Not to mention we are the only class that can actually jump UP a ledge (Huttball). and really it doesn't matter if we are the best or whatever at 1v1, tbh I never really had an issue 1v1 but yea It took awhile to kill but thats not the point when its playerS vs playerS. you should be tactical and look for the 2v1 or overpowering numbers. Why? Because you don't have time to waste 1v1 people in the middle of no where. Most people are forgetting and youre probably terrible players for this, but there are objectives in warzones. It's not about the "dmg" or whatever, and if youre doing 1v1, then you're simply playing wrong.

 

 

Impale/Shatter/Scream/Vthrow - You guys need to look at these abilities combined. Impale does 1k noncrit, Scream does about 2k crit. The dots from shatter help too. What you're not really seeing is that, we arent a super bursty class (cept for rage). We have a crap ton of interrupts though and enough combos to kill the target if we add in the use of Force Choke.

 

Our interrupts - Distortion or whjatever its called, Choke, Push, Force Charge.

 

I know the textbook definition of warrior is a class that you cannot stand toe to toe against with, true that may be the case for other games but if you give us that much power, then youre going to have to be taking away our offensive mobility, which I believe is more important cause any other class can do damage.

 

 

 

My only real concerns is that:

Sadly I can't hit for more than 2.5k in an attack, I am not sure if my Fscream or my Impale will ever hit that hard :/ so I will most likely lose out on that medal and that sucks... It's kind of a shame that Vthrow isn't effected by unrelenting assault :/ but that would be way too overpowered.

 

Also SWTOR needs dual specs. I mean this is 2011 right?

 

Also one last thing, When gear does actually become available, I think we will scale the best out of all the classes. Vengeance Juggs should aim for the highest str/power/surge rating possible to take advantage of your Majority Critting Screams and Vthrows.

Edited December 29, 2011 by anhtice

[anhtice]

I'm sick of low dmg.

 

I'm sick of rage build up in pvp it's the worst of all.

 

I'm sick of low aggro build up.

 

I'm sick of skills that i can't use on elite and players.

 

I'm sick of running around like mad to hold aggro on 5+ pve pack.

 

I'm sick of being so squishy in PvP - yet i have defense and expertise.

 

YET I LOVE MY JUGG!

 

FIX MY JUGG!

 

hey did you ever consider using Group Threat, smash, then enrage to sweeping strikes?

 

I never had a problem after that.

[Noth]

However, we have a lot of useful tools in our talent tree which other classes cannot get from gear - like damage reductions, cost drops, in-combat self-buffs, rage generation etc. We have multiple skills that rely on successfully defending against attacks - including several on retaliate, one of our main DPS skills - which needs high shield/def etc to use. These mean that while all tanks benefit from getting +5% defense from gear, juggs actively NEED the defense from gear to bring them into their own. These skills become much more powerful as you get gear to use them with, so a well-geared jugg increases in power more per upgrade than other classes.

 

Have you actually looked at other classes trees? They get damage reductions, cost drops, in combat self buffs, resource generation, damage increases. Really there is not anything that shows that the Jugg will scale any better than other classes.

[AlistairC]

To pull level with other classes, we need to be better geared than they are.

 

Im not necessarily disagreeing with you. Im not even sure we are underpowered to be frank. Alot of other classes also feel forced to use the healing companion f.ex. But mostly because I hit 50 today and I have yet to try any hardmodes let alone raids and ontop of that there is no combat log. So we can just go by gutfeel and surface observations.

 

The only thing Im really after is that the argument is shaking. Above statement pretty much says: "We will never be equal, because we need better gear than the rest" - Which basically means that if we dont get higher item level items we will always be behind in gear progression.

[TerraFirmaGuild]

I'v played on my Sith Juggernaut for a good 30-40 hours and am currently level 28, i know people hate comparisants to WoW but it has to be said, i'v read on other posts and have noticed it myself, Spells & Abilities that are instant casts taking 0.5-1 second to cast from engine lagg or something but par from that:

 

- Other Class's that are not even tanking spec seem to have higher Health / Endurance than me even when they've not spec'd and or got the gear for it.

 

- Taking on 3 + Mobs takes your health to around 1/4 if spells are on CD, If you tank 1 Elite mob and "Accidently" pull another, its game over.

 

- Heavy Armor? What.. I'v seen Medium Armor DPS Warriors take down Elite after Elite faster and more efficently than myself, after inspecting said person, they had 1000 - 1200 Armor, i had near 6000, its like Armor isn't Armor, its just for show...

 

- I have spec'd correctly, followed a few guides and experimented myself, nothing seems to affect my Character, Yes i can Buff and get the Defense Bonus but its nothing exciting.

 

- The Damage output is just horrible, after gathering commendations for hours and grinding through quests 1 by 1 on low level gear, to then upgrade said gear with commendations, new lighsaber, new everything, NOTHING CHANGES... Health increase yes but Damage... nop.

 

 

Imo the Sith Warrior Juggernaut is the most underpowered class in the game at the moment, its just not enjoyable, i played a warrior class in WoW tanking instances, taking on over 10 mobs at a time, i know the Damage system is different here but as a "Tank" you should be able to manage more than 6 mobs at a time...

 

anyone else having this as a tank?

 

Jugg is rough till around 40'ish. 50 thing really pan out.

 

Juggernaut's are not however, optimized. We have things that don't make sense. Some talents are rough, and make little sense. Ravage is my biggest complaint. Always bugs, and the skill requires a melee class to stand still...Plus, targets can just run away.

 

 

Anyways, hope it gets better for you.

 

-Atlus

[derkokes]

The next person to defend this pos class needs to stub thirty toe.

 

Every other class has a cc......

Every other class can do more sustain damage and more burst.

Every other class has an easier rotation.

Evwryother tank class has an easier time holding gro.

 

Also do powertechs really have a way to pull players to them and away to go to the player?

That's nuts

I played a shadow priest for 2 years before they became bateries then 2 more years before they became good. I know a bad class. This is a bad class. Fun? Yes bad? Absolutely.

 

Things we need for pvp viability:

Slight numbers increase on damage side.

Scream to work the same way shock does.

Ravaged to not be bugged

Force leap to not be bugged.

Scaling talents ( the force scream absorbtion talent, the force scream dot talent, the impaled dot talent.)

Rage tree to not suck

 

Pve damage,

Two button reduction on our rotation, a cd time and better cast bar for ravages.

Ravege to tick in equal increments.

Scaling talents

Ravege to not be broken

None channeling macro ability

Rage not to suck

 

Pve tanking

Honestly we are good here imo, we have a little aoe issue but its not anything big.

 

Rage not to suck.

Scaling talents

[Darth_Victus]

Compared to the other classes, yes the Juggernaut does feel under powered in both terms of tanking and DPS.

 

Some may argue, but in my own opinion; the Juggernaut AC does need to be tweaked a little to increase DPS output and threat generation so that we can compete with the other classes that can fill the same roles.

 

Yes, currently we can tank and we can DPS, but not as well as the others.

[Finis]

40 Immortal spec Jugernaught.

 

Speaking to PvE:

 

I think we are okay, I level'd so far as immortal spec, I used Vette until I got Jaesa. I'm sure Vette is still probably better, but I like the idea of having an apprentice. Sue me.

 

I eat gold's for breakfast, if I am smart I can handle a gold and a silver, easily. I am also a biochem, which helps some, but as a result I am totally dependent on quest rewards/commendations/pvp for gear, which hurts sometimes. Really, leveling as a tank spec is far easier than I expected it to be, certainly easier than leveling as tank spec in some other games.

 

I've tried spec'ing Veng and Rage, but I end up feeling underpowered and go back to Immortal the next time I'm in Fleet. It could be I just haven't given them a fair shake yet. I have no issues tanking any flash point so far, as long as I get people to count to three after they see me force jump ("No, not the saber throw, the force jump, then count to three"), do I wish I had a TK version of grappling hook? Hell yes. Do I need it... eh... probably not, but damn it would be nice. Mostly in FP's I ignore any normal/not-Silver+ NPC's and let my parties AoE handle those. Everyclass in SWTOR can handle agro on one or two weak mobs without effecting them greatly.

 

Now, waves of mobs in boss fights is another matter, for those I save Smash and Threatening Scream.

 

 

Speaking to PvP:

 

First off. I cannot stress how awesome it is that playing a tank is viable in pvp. I love that taunts are Really Damn Useful and can often clinch critical moments. I've hit 100k protection in a really intense Huttball match, and I can unmodestly say I am probably the reason we won, seeing how the only healer we had for the match was a level 17 merc. However, I had crap damage, and only 8 kils, because I was so focused on keeping people off the carrier, I didn't bother finishing people off once they were out of my face. So, no, no MVP (I'm not bitter.)

 

Now, I haven't pvped much outside of Immortal spec, so my perspetive is mostly that. But it is damn frustrating to be a Sith Lord, and feel like I brought a wiffle bat to a blaster fight. :-/

 

I Hate being in tank stance, with the level 40 pvp gear, and get hit by a level twelve Sage for easily as much as my best attack. From Range. While shielding themselves and their friends and kiting me. Sigh.

 

I realize my pvp experience would probably be better in a different spec, but until they give us dual spec's, I'm committed to tanking for questing and Flashpoints with my friends and guild.

[bananaface]

I've cleared eternity vault on heroic, pretty much always top 2 or 3 in wz's and this is my opinion so far about Immortal.

Only going to mention what this spec lacks.

 

Single target threat is just awfull, got a 136 dmglvl tank weapon and using strength stims but you simply lose agro after about 10secs when all your ability's are on cd to any dps that doesn't have guard on them.

 

Dmg in pvp is also awfull, SI tanks do twice the dmg in pvp compared to immortal. 100k dmg in a WZ is the max you can get from singletarget while a SI or PT tank can do 200k in pvp.

I only top the charts due to sick amount of protection i get from (aoe) taunts and guard i slap on a marauder guildy and objective points.

 

Rest of the spec is fine, you defo can control people a lot. Stuns, knockback, free aoe slow sure is great and all but when those are on cd you are kinda useless.

 

As for Vengeance dps, got a sick jugg dps guildy but the dmg of vengeance is really lacking compared to Rage or a Marauder and you barely get any extra survivability for pvp, not enough to compensate for the lack of dmg atleast.

 

So in short, Immortal and Vengeance need a dmg boost. Rest is fine.

[Magthere]

Honestly the class reminds me so much of being a warrior in vanilla WoW.

 

Solo content -

Leveling an immortal is a trial of patience. the 30 - 45 bracket is very difficult and honestly i found pulling out a DPS companion to be my best bet. It speed up my leveling significantly and really only required ~10 seconds of down time between packs to use our recovery ability before i was back in the fight. I think a lot of people in this bracket have a hard time because they're not fully utilizing their class. Remembering to use all of your abilities especially against tough mobs is big, stuns, slows, pommel strike, etc. A lot of people also become too reliant on their healing companion and forget that sometimes having a DPS companion who can dish it out is better in the long run then surviving a much longer fight. The only truly difficult part I found leveling was the very last part of our class quest.

 

At 50 I found things got only easier. I'm now regularly soloing groups of 4+ regular mobs or 2 tough mobs + 1/2 regular mobs.

 

PVP -

Immortal Juggs are an interesting thing in PVP. Going into a WZ with friends is awesome. Given someone to protect or a partner to hold an objective with we become exactly as our spec is named. Often I find I can hold an objective against 3 - 4 enemies long enough for our team to go through a full respawn and return to the objective. That is the key to PVP as an immortal, know your role. You aren't going to top DPS charts, but you sure as heck can top protection and objective charts. As to our ability to compete with other tanks doing the same job, again this falls to knowing our job. Immortal juggs are ment to be a wall. We have more CD's then the other tanking AC's. Sure they can out DPS us, but they can't hold an objective for nearly as long as we can. If your interest isn't to be a wall, then reroll to another tank and be a less stable wall with spikes on it. Also keep in mind that we are ment to be a team player in WZs. If you are regularly running around solo as a jugg in PVP you're doing it wrong. Find another player who looks like they know what their doing and stick with them. I've often found that just finding a single solid DPS player who knows what their doing and sticking with them we can wreck a WZ just by me keeping the heat off them. Remember guard and our taunts are some of our biggest PVP abilities. If you treat PVP similar to PVE then you'll often find your team winning.

 

PVE -

This one is I think where being an Immortal Jugg requires a lot more care. Knowing who to place guard on and regularly switching your guard requires a lot of care. I often find that in a single boss fight I might switch who I'm guarding upwards of 5 times depending on what is happening. It is also very helpful to have DPS who are smart and know how to work with you as a tank. Often times in our groups the DPS will stagger their burn phases so that tanks have time to switch their guard to that person. Adds just popped out, guard the healer until their under control, then guard your strong AOE people. I think a lot of tanks under estimate the importance of being very fluid with your guard. This also applies to PVP.

 

Now I will conceed that Juggs do feel very sluggish in their AOE threat. particularly the difficulty of keeping 3+ ranged NPCs in an AOE. Not having the ability to pull a mob to you I think is the single biggest hinderance to Juggs doing well in AoE situations. This is because it takes us easily 4+ seconds to position the mobs correctly for our AoE since we have to not only move to the outlying mob, but also line up a very well aimed Force Push in order to get it into the pack of other mobs. In almost all other situations however I feel we present as a very strong tank.

 

TL: DR - Juggs are fine except for AoE situations, just learn to be fluid with your guard and know your role.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Magthere

[TerraFirmaGuild]

I'd like to reword my post.

 

 

The class has things that need to change.

 

 

1: We need Force Pull. Put it in the Tank tree, or whatever, but we need it. We are a melee tank. Powertech's should not have been given the ability over us. Its simply does not make sense. To even consider trying to argue that Juggernaut's should not have it is simply ridiculous. Also. Take away push if you have to. It would make a great balance to returning pull to our arsenal.

 

2: Ravage is bad. Allow it to be usable while moving and tune it so the timing is proper. For god sakes stop it from bugging and causing me to be stuck standing still.

 

3: Threat needs to be attached to Jugg only abilities. Threat in general is not where it needs to be compared to PT tanks.

 

4: Mobs and players in general have WAYYY to many knockbacks in this game for all melee. The game is very simply "melee bugged". Melee needs some answers for high amount of knockbacks and whatnot. Perhaps some tank tree percentage immunity to knock backs and whatnot. At least for the Juggernaut.

 

 

I can just share my ideas. I doubt it will be any time soon before BioWare does anything about any of this.

 

-Atlus

[Lymain]

Also. Take away push if you have to. It would make a great balance to returning pull to our arsenal.

 

Oh please god don't take my Push!

[Varus_Praetor]

While I agree Jugg tanks need force pull because they're melee, I'd like to point out that PT tanks are also mostly melee.

 

Basically my problem is that as vengeance spec, I either have to bring a healing companion or out level the content by a fair margin in order to kill mobs with anywhere near the level of smoothness that other classes such as BH or Sorc seem to. I feel like jugg dps definitely needs some adjustment. I also feel like our survivability could use looking at as well. With my sorc, I have tools for keeping mobs at range. Now ranged mobs can still hit me, but with my jugg ALL mobs can hit me at all times.

 

The lack of a CC in the dps tree is very depressing after playing my merc and sorc.

[Darth_Victus]

Oh please god don't take my Push!

 

I agree with this. I like Force Push. Helps get rid of enemies faster if there is a ledge or something.

[Aniliss]

I'd like to reword my post.

 

 

The class has things that need to change.

 

 

1: We need Force Pull. Put it in the Tank tree, or whatever, but we need it. We are a melee tank. Powertech's should not have been given the ability over us. Its simply does not make sense. To even consider trying to argue that Juggernaut's should not have it is simply ridiculous. Also. Take away push if you have to. It would make a great balance to returning pull to our arsenal.

 

2: Ravage is bad. Allow it to be usable while moving and tune it so the timing is proper. For god sakes stop it from bugging and causing me to be stuck standing still.

 

3: Threat needs to be attached to Jugg only abilities. Threat in general is not where it needs to be compared to PT tanks.

 

4: Mobs and players in general have WAYYY to many knockbacks in this game for all melee. The game is very simply "melee bugged". Melee needs some answers for high amount of knockbacks and whatnot. Perhaps some tank tree percentage immunity to knock backs and whatnot. At least for the Juggernaut.

 

 

I can just share my ideas. I doubt it will be any time soon before BioWare does anything about any of this.

 

-Atlus

 

While I agree I agree your 2 & 3 ( 4 is meh but wouldn't hurt), 1 I disagree with. Alot of people always compare classes and want abilities that other classes have. (within the same role) This is what differentiates the classes & make them unique in there own way. We don't need an ability just because another class has it. That's like if every tank class in WoW could Death Grip like a Death Knight. We don't want a clone of every class.

[Aceit]

Every class is almost exactly the same.

 

Every class has a 4 sec stun, a cc, a damage reducer, channel attacks, dots, support skills, etc....

 

If you sat down and compared every class skill by skill there would be very minor discrepencies.

 

 

FALSE, don't talk about things you don't know. The Immortal Jug does not get a CC, just saying...

[TerraFirmaGuild]

While I agree I agree your 2 & 3 ( 4 is meh but wouldn't hurt), 1 I disagree with. Alot of people always compare classes and want abilities that other classes have. (within the same role) This is what differentiates the classes & make them unique in there own way. We don't need an ability just because another class has it. That's like if every tank class in WoW could Death Grip like a Death Knight. We don't want a clone of every class.

 

In beta, we were the ones with pull. It was take from our class and given to assassins. So, originally, it belonged to us.

 

Just saying.

Edited January 1, 2012 by TerraFirmaGuild

[Aniliss]

Don't we still have push? Edited January 1, 2012 by Aniliss