Hey, I had been following this thread for the past week but did not have the time to reply. I just wanted to give my opinion here. I have read many interesting ideas in various posts from different people. However, there is not ONE best way to play Juggs. All the recommendations can be as contradicting as optimal in every situation. Follow your style and what your team needs you to do. Juggs are great target callers, since we can leap everywhere and most importantly we can set our Shockwaves before calling our targets. Personally I was always more of a single target guy even with my Rage jugg. Hitting 3 people in ranked is not as good as hitting THE single designated target. Trust me when I say a properly geared healer will have no problem healing your 3 smashed targets. My operative even used to DPS in mid fights because he was topping everyone so fast. As for push.. I would try to avoid using it in a standard rotation in a ranked or serious game. An ideal way to use that ability is in Alderaan civil war when both teams are fighting for the middle node. I have seen games where the middle node was never taken in ranked. The key here is to use push offensively to force the battle towards where the enemies spawn. Their healers usually stand in the back, by charging to them and pushing them even further, you are challenging their team for control of the middle. And if i am 1v1 vs their healer back there he will die, so they send peelers. So with 1 push you just neutralized 2+ of their players and moved the fight far enough for your team to be in a better position to cap mid. But never do this without telling your teammates in vent. Your healers need to be aware of where you are and need to move in range to heal you.

Yes sorry if i was not clear. I don't count smashes without 4 stacks of shockwave as a possibility. Beside needing to stop an enemy from capping something, you should never use smash without 4 stacks of shockwave

No crush: Choke + enrage = 2 Smashes per minute With crush: Choke + enrage + crush 3x) = 5 smashes per minute

I suggest you read my guide: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=524920 It tells you everything you need on how to play rage in PVP and dominate. I was in the best PVP guild on the server when I left, and this spec & gear setups dominates both unrated and rated.

An assassin made me do the calculations in the past. Since I don't play anymore, I cannot finish the calculations. If you are able to follow my last 5 directions, we can probably complete it. In order to properly test your idea, I decided to apply what you are proposing to my optimized PVP profile on my Juggernaut since I understand my class and not yours. I have included all my calculations, so you should be able to do the same for your class. My character was a Rage DPS Jugg. Here are the results: Initial remodded PVP gear with custom build Belt and Bracers: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/characte...a-2d7fd8025578 Same profile but with the Black Hole off hand: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/characte...8-6ef1f89cd47e Total change in Primary and Secondary stats as we substituted the War Hero off hand by the Black Hole off hand: Strength: +8 Endurance: +33 Expertise: -113 Accuracy: +4 Force Power: Same Critical rating: - 55 Power: +84 Total change in ability stats: Melee Damage Primary MIN: 947.6 to 969.7 = Delta of +2.33% Melee Damage Primary MAX: 1109.6 to 1131.7 = Delta of +1.99% Melee Bonus Damage: 623.6 to 645.7 = Delta of +3.54% Melee Critical Chance: 24.89% to 22.55% = Delta of -2.34% Force Bonus Damage: 1023.2 to 1046.7 = Delta of +2.30% Force Critical Chance: 32.06% to 29.72% = Delta of -2.34% Health: 18973.4 to 19323.3 = Delta of +1.84% PVP Damage Boost: 22.88% to 21.28% = Delta of -1.60% PVP Damage Reduction: 18.62% to 17.55% = Delta of -1.07% PVP Heal Boost: 12.65% to 11.74% = Delta of 0.91% Delta calculations: Deltas from data in raw numbers were obtained with the following formula: ( (Value(t=1) / Value (t=0)) – 1 ) * 100 This means that your ability at t=1 will do X% more damage than the same ability at t=0 so this becomes comparable with our % based values. Deltas from data already in % were simply subtracted: Value(t=1) – Value(t=0) Now let’s analyze our data: Added HP vs Expertise bonus: My HP went up by 350 (1.84%) but I lost a total damage reduction of 1.07%. The added HP helps in neutralizing burst damage since you can withstand a target switch for a longer period of time. However, in a sustained damage fight, the damage reduction will be more beneficial to you and your healers. But using the HP increase of 350 on my total HP is not accurate either. I prefer to use an average of my in-game battle HP which is obtained by taking your entire damage taken at the end of a Warzone and dividing it by your number of deaths + 1. This number will look more like 50k for example. Adding 350 HP on 50k suddenly looks very slim. My conclusion on this: I would say the total damage reduction is better, so the War Hero off hand is better. Added Power vs loss in crit: This is an easy one. Rage Juggs thrive on Power at the expense of Crit since we have auto crits on Smash. My conclusion on this: The Black Hole off hand is better. Added damage vs loss in PVP damage boost: Given the numbers listed above, the Black Hole off hand seems to provide an increase in Force and Melee damage superior to the loss of 1.60% in PVP Damage. The loss in PVP damage means that every ability will do 1.60% damage less off the total damage done by the ability. The melee and force damage data listed above represent modifiers. So they cannot be compared directly to the 1.60%. For instance, the +2.30% increase in Force bonus damage is not 100% of my smash damage. So there is an added coefficient for every ability in the game. Let’s say my Smash does 1000 baseline and then you add 1046.7 bonus damage for a total of 2046.7, our coefficient will be 0.5114. Then we multiply our 0.5114 by the 2.30% increase we get : 1.176% which is inferior to our 1.60% from the expertise. This would mean it is not worth it. My conclusion: I cannot draw a conclusion based on the damage variation. I would still need to have access to the game. That is a calculation you can easily do if you are up for it: 1: Log in game and equip your War Hero off hand fully augmented 2: Note the tooltip min and max damage of your top 3 Force abilities and top 3 Melee abilities 3: Equip your Black Hole off hand fully augmented 4: Note the new tooltip min and max damage of your top 3 Force abilities and top 3 Melee abilities 5: Come post them here on the forum and we will go from there.

It is only Smahs that is 100% crit. What happens is that every time you use charge (15 sec Cooldown) or Obliterate (16 secs cooldown) you will get a buff that last 15-20 seconds that will make your next Smash 100% crit. So obviously you never smash without that buff. Also you need to make sure you have 4 stacks of shockwave before you smash. To build shockwave you can use: Enrage = 60 secs cooldown Choke = 60 sec cooldown Crush = 18 sec cooldown. This is our main shockwave builder

That depends on the Spec. As a vengeance jugg I recommend 30% crit unbuffed. However as a Rage Jugg, 60% of my damage already auto crits, so adding power is better than adding crit on gear.

In order to properly test your idea, I decided to apply what you are proposing to my optimized PVP profile on my Juggernaut since I understand my class and not yours. I have included all my calculations, so you should be able to do the same for your class. My character was a Rage DPS Jugg. Here are the results: Initial remodded PVP gear with custom build Belt and Bracers: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/45beb788-5a88-4da2-917a-2d7fd8025578 Same profile but with the Black Hole off hand: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/character/cb350331-dc9a-4f9d-ba48-6ef1f89cd47e Total change in Primary and Secondary stats as we substituted the War Hero off hand by the Black Hole off hand: Strength: +8 Endurance: +33 Expertise: -113 Accuracy: +4 Force Power: Same Critical rating: - 55 Power: +84 Total change in ability stats: Melee Damage Primary MIN: 947.6 to 969.7 = Delta of +2.33% Melee Damage Primary MAX: 1109.6 to 1131.7 = Delta of +1.99% Melee Bonus Damage: 623.6 to 645.7 = Delta of +3.54% Melee Critical Chance: 24.89% to 22.55% = Delta of -2.34% Force Bonus Damage: 1023.2 to 1046.7 = Delta of +2.30% Force Critical Chance: 32.06% to 29.72% = Delta of -2.34% Health: 18973.4 to 19323.3 = Delta of +1.84% PVP Damage Boost: 22.88% to 21.28% = Delta of -1.60% PVP Damage Reduction: 18.62% to 17.55% = Delta of -1.07% PVP Heal Boost: 12.65% to 11.74% = Delta of 0.91% Delta calculations: Deltas from data in raw numbers were obtained with the following formula: ( (Value(t=1) / Value (t=0)) – 1 ) * 100 This means that your ability at t=1 will do X% more damage than the same ability at t=0 so this becomes comparable with our % based values. Deltas from data already in % were simply subtracted: Value(t=1) – Value(t=0) Now let’s analyze our data: Added HP vs Expertise bonus: My HP went up by 350 (1.84%) but I lost a total damage reduction of 1.07%. The added HP helps in neutralizing burst damage since you can withstand a target switch for a longer period of time. However, in a sustained damage fight, the damage reduction will be more beneficial to you and your healers. But using the HP increase of 350 on my total HP is not accurate either. I prefer to use an average of my in-game battle HP which is obtained by taking your entire damage taken at the end of a Warzone and dividing it by your number of deaths + 1. This number will look more like 50k for example. Adding 350 HP on 50k suddenly looks very slim. My conclusion on this: I would say the total damage reduction is better, so the War Hero off hand is better. Added Power vs loss in crit: This is an easy one. Rage Juggs thrive on Power at the expense of Crit since we have auto crits on Smash. My conclusion on this: The Black Hole off hand is better. Added damage vs loss in PVP damage boost: Given the numbers listed above, the Black Hole off hand seems to provide an increase in Force and Melee damage superior to the loss of 1.60% in PVP Damage. The loss in PVP damage means that every ability will do 1.60% damage less off the total damage done by the ability. The melee and force damage data listed above represent modifiers. So they cannot be compared directly to the 1.60%. For instance, the +2.30% increase in Force bonus damage is not 100% of my smash damage. So there is an added coefficient for every ability in the game. Let’s say my Smash does 1000 baseline and then you add 1046.7 bonus damage for a total of 2046.7, our coefficient will be 0.5114. Then we multiply our 0.5114 by the 2.30% increase we get : 1.176% which is inferior to our 1.60% from the expertise. This would mean it is not worth it. My conclusion: I cannot draw a conclusion based on the damage variation. I would still need to have access to the game. That is a calculation you can easily do if you are up for it: 1: Log in game and equip your War Hero off hand fully augmented 2: Note the tooltip min and max damage of your top 3 Force abilities and top 3 Melee abilities 3: Equip your Black Hole off hand fully augmented 4: Note the new tooltip min and max damage of your top 3 Force abilities and top 3 Melee abilities 5: Come post them here on the forum and we will go from there.

It's not stealth, it's camo. Just saying

ok thx, i will calculate this tomorrow at work, give me 24h

PoliteAssassin, You have polluted the last thread about Rage vs Vengeance with your bad arguments and now I believe you are doing so again in this thread. Seeing how you are completely against Rage, whether as a Jugg or Mara, this leads me to believe you fear the Rage warriors. You must be someone I've smash for ridiculous amounts in the past. I've seen the best Mara play Rage in ranks. He finished 2nd in the dueling contest on my server. He was the only non stealth class in the top 10. In our last thread you kept arguing that Vengeance beats Rage hands down. Now you are saying Rage is crap in this thread. I don't know about you, but for Maras to abandon Carnage and Annihilation over Rage (Carnage and Annihilation are both MUCH BETTER specs than Jugg vengeances) this might be because Rage does have some value. And if that is true then everything you have said is complete crap thus you should stop posting. You are definitely the failed player ingame and I am seriously tired of having to read your bad arguments. Since I don't finish posts without a good recommendation, here is my pointer to you mister: Please visit the following websites: http://www.stopposting.com or http://www.st-fu.com if you speak as you type

Hey, I don't normally put my nose in topics that don't concern Juggs, but you brought an idea worth testing. My sub is longer active as of last week, but I would really like to calculate your gains/losses with you profile. Can you please create a Mr.Robot profile with your ingame gear*and spec. If it is not fully optimized in-game, please fully optimize it on your Mr.Robot profile so I can really calculate your maximum stats. Once it is done, please submit the link of your Mr.Robot in this thread. Don't forget to click the maximum rep boxes, all the datacrons + if you are a human click that box aswell. thanks

The best relics you use in both PVP and PVE is currently double War Hero Relic of Imperiling Serenity. http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/gear/42294/war-hero-relic-of-imperiling-serenity

Here read this thread, I've summed it all up: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=524920

Deafening defense is a much better talent than sonic barrier. Hands down go for deafening defense. Just the passive 4% damage reduction is already much better than the sonic barrier buff. Then add the 15% damage reduction on demand every 45 secs, that thing is definitely good stuff. When you play hybrid, you don't have to go far in the immortal tree. Don't forget that your avoidance (defense, shield and absorption) have little meaning in PVP. What you see is pure damage reduction and high HP, since most pvp specs bypass avoidance.