Discipline System; I don't suppose there is still time to reconsider?

[LyraineAlei]

Serious plot summary of Green Eggs and Ham? Internet win.

 

Better internet win is that the book was originally a bet to see if Suess could write a book using only a small number of different words, and the summary takes more words than the whole book uses.

[Raphael_diSanto]

And because of that story, there are always people who truly believe the silly notion that you never never know until you try, no matter what.

 

Would you enjoy being hit in the head with a hammer? No? How do you know, have you ever tried it?

 

There is a difference between being hit in the head with a hammer which factually triggers pain responses and subjectively liking or disliking a game mechanic. One is fact, the other is opinion. Besides, there's people out there who do like being hit in the head with a hammer

 

Either way, by and large, I fully believe that "you won't know until you try it" is a pretty valid viewpoint to hold on most things that are subjective and opinion based.

 

It's my belief that people who disagree with the sentiment are the types of people who are closed-minded and convinced they already know.

 

"The greatest obstacle to discovering the truth is thinking you already know it."

 

Me, I'm keeping an open mind.

[Orizuru]

Well, the analogy is as good or as stupid as the "green egg" analogy: wether I like some food or not is also something I cannot just think about and decide upon. Just as I do not wake up one morning and decide to become homosexual, I also do not wake up and decide to suddenly like the taste of fish.

 

Want an other analogy? Sure, no problem: I don't have to see the latest Jim Carey movie to know that I will not like it. Jim Carrey's taste of humor is as far away from mine as possible, I personally believe his acting skills are worse than that of a parapledgic and lobotomized ape on dope, and the storyline of it sounds awful, too. So without having to see a single scene of it I know it's a total waste of tape.

 

And just as I can make this decision, I can tell that the discipline system is nothing I will like, because I have experienced similar systems. Not exactly the one BW/EA will present us, but just as one Jim Carey movie is even worser than the previous one (I've seen two - making it three more than any sane person ever should see), that system that BW/EA presents here is similar to others so that I need no further information to be 110% sure it sucks.

 

That is better analogy. However, its just as much of a strawman as the Dr Seuss analogy.

 

Keep in mind, I'm not the one who made the analogy. I just saw that it went over your head because you are not an American and grew up reading different books, so I tried to clarify the analogy. Personally, I'm not a fan of analogies because they are almost always a strawman argument.

 

But, to continue your analogy. You do recognize that your take on Jim Carrey and his movies is just your opinion, correct? Now, does this opinion of yours make you believe that his movies should not be shown in theaters at all? Or to clarify where I'm going with this, do you think your dislike of disciplines means the feature should not exist or be implemented?

[BuriDogshin]

From what we have seen its hard to see exactly what the discipline system improves to the customers experience.

 

1) More fight-by-fight choice in "utility" abilities. For example, Sorc DPS can now spec their Overload to do an AoE heal, as may be useful for a fight with raid-wide damage, and it will take very little t1me to swap a utility ability in and out as needed. Probably not changeable while in combat, but that's ok.

 

2) Much faster field respec. I'll be able to easily switch between Corruption and Madness: e.g. Madness for fast trash-mob kills, Corruption for the Boss fights. I could do that now but it takes tens of seconds to do it, so it isn't worth the time. Under disciplines, it looks like it will take maybe 5 seconds: switch spec, change gear, ready.

 

BW exceeded my expectations with Strongholds, they are better than I thought they would be.

Perhaps they will exceed my expectations again with 3.0. We will know soon enough.

Edited November 14, 2014 by BuriDogshin

[Lt-Snake]

If you've never tasted mushrooms before then you won't know if you like the taste or not.

 

like kill joy said, do you need to be hit in the head with a hammer to know you wont like it, do you need to be hit by a car to know you wont like it.. now let me be clear, im not saying i want that to happen you Reno...i'm just trying to give an example...my point is this, you don't need to always try something to know you wont like it, somethings you can see right off the bat, that its not good for you....

[Lt-Snake]

1) More fight-by-fight choice in "utility" abilities. For example, Sorc DPS can now spec their Overload to do an AoE heal, as may be useful for a fight with raid-wide damage, and it will take very little t1me to swap a utility ability in and out as needed. Probably not changeable while in combat, but that's ok.

 

2) Much faster field respec. I'll be able to easily switch between Corruption and Madness: e.g. Madness for fast trash-mob kills, Corruption for the Boss fights. I could do that now but it takes tens of seconds to do it, so it isn't worth the time. Under disciplines, it looks like it will take maybe 5 seconds: switch spec, change gear, ready.

 

BW exceeded my expectations with Strongholds, they are better than I thought they would be.

Perhaps they will exceed my expectations again with 3.0. We will know soon enough.

 

that's all well and dandy but your level of expectation isn't the same as others

Edited November 14, 2014 by Lt-Snake

[Levram]

do you need to be hit by a car to know you wont like it...

 

I suppose you haven't seen the David Cronenberg movie Crash (1996)?

 

Yes, it's fictional, but that doesn't mean it's not based in some type of reality. The human mind is a construct that manages to surprise even its owner from time to time.

[Reno_Tarshil]

like kill joy said, do you need to be hit in the head with a hammer to know you wont like it, do you need to be hit by a car to know you wont like it.. now let me be clear, im not saying i want that to happen you Reno...i'm just trying to give an example...my point is this, you don't need to always try something to know you wont like it, somethings you can see right off the bat, that its not good for you....

 

Eating cooked food and hitting yourself with a hammer and a car are two different things.

[Costello]

There are many, many benefits for the customer in the new discipline system.

 

1) The removal of "fake choices" is a benefit to the customer. There are several key talents in every single talent tree that are "no brainers" that have to be taken. And there are many more that are almost 100% neccessary. Yes, someone can skip over them but there is no logical reason as to why they would do that. It can only hurt them. Now those "no brainers" and "almost no brainers" are standard as the person levels up. Now the customer doesn't even have to worry about not being on par (at a base level) with other players. Now all players at least have the same base performance level and the "noob" factor is removed. This is a huge benefit to everyone. By leveling the playing field there is a base level of expected performance and now a person can't screw that up. That's awesome for both new players and vets.

 

2) Removal of unintended hybrids. We are all aware these are a problem. These are specs that game the system to take advantage of FP queues and PvP balance. They have to go. End of story.

 

3) Most of us, I would venture 80% (the 80% rule) are already cookie cutters of eachother. Let's remove the illlusion of choice and give players real gameplay choices.

 

4) No dev in their right mind would create a dodge/roll/dynamic system (not including the smuggler roll as that is a class feature) in a game that was never designed for it. The combat system we have is here to stay because this is how it was designed. This is not Tera. This is not Guild Wars.

 

5) There have been many comments on the live streams but at 60 you will feel (more or less) like you do at 55. There is a damage and healing squish that helps prolong the life of the game. That "squish" has nothing to do with the discipline system and is a completely different topic.

 

The only thing I see as a bonus is that they have removed a pleasant illusion of choice and made it very clear you will follow a set path with set skills that will stop you hybriding or taking a few low tier skills from another tree that you like. Such as my merc dps having slightly better heals so when my companion starts getting low on health I can pop off a quick missile to keep them alive.

 

In many ways the entire experience is based on an illusion, you get to be a jedi a sith a bounty hunter etc for a while and experience a galaxy wide adventure. It isn't real but its an enjoyable illusion so I'm not sure that getting rid of the illusion of choice really helps the game. Next they will get rid of the dialogue wheel cause turns out most choices there don't change what the person says to you. I can be the nicest jedi in the world or the most stupid and cruelest I will still be sent on an impossible mission at the end of my class story.

 

Getting rid of hybrids I can understand from a design point of view they make it harder to balance, though given for most people as mentioned there are must have skills it should make it easier as most of these must haves are at the top of the tree anyway. So any hybrid would be missing must haves and be weaker, but that aside that it makes life easier for the devs hardly seems like a good selling point. It would be similar to a restaurant that only allowed you to order from a set menu so you got option a b or c with no substitutions and no changes. Yeah a lot easier for them they can probably work out which dishes to microwave in which order and have everything prepared in the morning. But while easier for them it sure doesn't help the customer. Apologises eent a little off tangent with the green eggs story. Yes its easier I'm sure people remember when the NGE came in and from tons of choice it went to no choice (which was slowly fixed through skill trees) but once again it doesn't seem a good move to offer more to your customers than less.

 

As for the combat system as it stands roughly 80% of attacks are defense vs accuracy with 15% allowing you to move out the way with some classes getting a roll or super speed or jump etc to assist with this and about 5% being raid wide and requiring an interupt or nothing you can do about it. This means for most combat all you can do is dps, tank and heal through it, which is more about rotations and cool down and resource management than anything else. In many ways a marco might be more effective than a player. Now we know a nerf is coming across the board and what we have seen the discipline tree is more than a little tied to this where classes that are considered too good are seeing their skill tree losing some damage or passives to bring them in line. From the dev blogs we are seeing some loss of abilities.

 

With the combat being more Baldurs gate than Mass Effect 3 where for the most part you stand and let the random number generator decide if you get hit or you hit them and if you critical etc etc the numbers for dps, healing, tanking play a far larger role. So any nerf of these is felt cause it isn't a case of we wiped versus the dread masters cause I didn't block that attack its there damage was higher than our healing/dps/tanking and unless someone messed up their roatation there is nothing we can do about it but grind better gear. And in this case grind better gear to get back to the place we are at now.

 

Once again its hard to see how these changes make the experience better for vets and subscribers. Less choice (illusion or not), no hybrids and grind to hopefully get back to where you are now. Where is the dev post to say its all worth it because this will improve everyones experience by.... Nothing we have seen so far has shown this, the big things I have seen is nerf, wont see much change in play style and we don't have the technology to do that so lots of redundant skills.

[Jadescythe]

Once again its hard to see how these changes make the experience better for vets and subscribers. Less choice (illusion or not), no hybrids and grind to hopefully get back to where you are now. Where is the dev post to say its all worth it because this will improve everyones experience by.... Nothing we have seen so far has shown this, the big things I have seen is nerf, wont see much change in play style and we don't have the technology to do that so lots of redundant skills.

 

Perhaps you haven't looked hard enough for these posts. One of the biggest benefits they've noted is the ability to give players higher tier abilities sooner, so you feel like you are actually playing the spec you chose by level 20 instead of 40. This was not possible before, as you noted, because hybrids would have had access to those abilities.

[Aussircaex]

I know...

 

 

You assume that there is a "optimal" build. Certainly, to make this thing work, the possible options should not be "lame skill 1", "unnecessary skill 2" and "superhypermegapowerattackselfhealautowinskill 3". Ther have to be thre equally good skills to chose between to make it work. But that wouldn't be that hard to make. In adition, skills on higher tiers within the same tree should not be built like Skill A5 works at best when taken together with Skills A4 and A3, while skill B4 works best in conjunction with B4 and B3 etc.

 

So, when a Skill tree offers 3 skills per tier (A, B and C), the combination A3, B4 and C5 should be equaly good as B3, C4 and B5 or C3, A4 and B5 etc. (as good meaning that differences are just in a minor range).

 

For example, you could make the effect of more attack-types based on the target: attacks that only do half damage against droids, animals, flying creatures, force-wielders etc. So that you might find a n "optimum build" for a given situation/type of enemy, but not an overall "optimum build".

 

This whole "optimized build" thing ticks me off the worst: there shouldn't be any. Especially in regard to "balancing" issues, it should be the developers aim to make sure there is no optimum build. Certainly, to achieve that, there must be more options, not less (cause the less option, the closer everyone is to that totally "optimum build").

 

There are always optimal choices. Maintaining a balance to create enough different optimal specs is the role of the developer. But that's what they're already doing. You are prosing to throw away the existing system and replace it with an equally difficult to balance one. Nothing is gained except an esoteric sense of choice which doesn't actually exist.

[DanNV]

There are always optimal choices. Maintaining a balance to create enough different optimal specs is the role of the developer. But that's what they're already doing. You are prosing to throw away the existing system and replace it with an equally difficult to balance one. Nothing is gained except an esoteric sense of choice which doesn't actually exist.

 

I've been sitting back watching the foolishness in this thread with more than a little amusement. However, with the blatantly false info here I figured I'd jump in and say something.

 

The new system is easier to balance because Hybrids don't have to be considered. It is really that simple. The new system allows the devs to give classes their better abilities sooner because they don't have to move them up the tree out of reach of the hybrids, which helps every class. Further, if people have been watching the streams, you'd know that you now get a choice of a larger number of utility skills than you've had in the past which is also a plus.

 

All the complaining about a system which no one has even really had a chance to look at yet is amusing. The false information going around is amazing.

[Darth_Advent]

Well I do like that some of the skills I would have been discouraged from spending points in because they are considered useful solely for PvP or PvE are now a guaranteed part of my character growth.

[sloasdaylight]

So to your question "What is the maximum amount of choice players should have before developers set limits?"

My answer is: I don't know what the maximum is - but the absolute minimum is the "one choice per level" as we have it now.

 

Yea man, because dropping 3 points into something 3 levels in a row, only to drop another 2 into another talent, then 2 in 2 more, then 3 in one, then another 2, then FINALLY get to the next level of talents is so very rewarding.

[sloasdaylight]

Let's go back to the Hamburger analogy for a second.

 

Everyone's saying you don't have to eat a new McDonald's burger to know you won't like it because you don't like McDonald's burgers. Fine, fair enough, but that's not at all what this is like. It's like saying you won't eat an In and Out hamburger, or a Five Guys hamburger because McDonald's burgers are nasty. It doesn't make a lick of sense.

[azudelphi]

Let's go back to the Hamburger analogy for a second.

 

Everyone's saying you don't have to eat a new McDonald's burger to know you won't like it because you don't like McDonald's burgers. Fine, fair enough, but that's not at all what this is like. It's like saying you won't eat an In and Out hamburger, or a Five Guys hamburger because McDonald's burgers are nasty. It doesn't make a lick of sense.

 

You make a fair point, but I have an issue with this post... namely that now I want a Five Guys Bacon Cheeseburger. Yes, I am aware that it has enough calories for a family of four. Yes, I am aware that I am on a diet.

[Orizuru]

Let's go back to the Hamburger analogy for a second.

 

Everyone's saying you don't have to eat a new McDonald's burger to know you won't like it because you don't like McDonald's burgers. Fine, fair enough, but that's not at all what this is like. It's like saying you won't eat an In and Out hamburger, or a Five Guys hamburger because McDonald's burgers are nasty. It doesn't make a lick of sense.

 

I think the different analogies that have been presented so far make it quite clear that the most constructive discussion on this topic involves speaking directly about disciplines rather than making analogies.

 

That said, I can't believe you even put Five Guys and McDonald's in the same sentence together.

[Orizuru]

You make a fair point, but I have an issue with this post... namely that now I want a Five Guys Bacon Cheeseburger. Yes, I am aware that it has enough calories for a family of four. Yes, I am aware that I am on a diet.

 

Those calories don't count.

 

A bacon cheeseburger from Five Guys is health food. Because every time I eat one, it saves someone's life. Because if anyone tries to get between me and a bacon cheeseburger from Five Guys when I want one, is doing so at great peril to their own life.

[sloasdaylight]

I think the different analogies that have been presented so far make it quite clear that the most constructive discussion on this topic involves speaking directly about disciplines rather than making analogies.

 

That said, I can't believe you even put Five Guys and McDonald's in the same sentence together.

 

I think my additional analogy has driven home the point that analogies can be used to represent a number of different things within even the same analogy, including both the obvious usefulness of analogies, as well as the apparent ability they have to obfuscate the original point and drive discussion off-topic by launching into a tangentially related discussion as to whether or not analogies are useful in expressing one's point with regard to the original topic at hand, which naturally would then only need to an orthogonally related discussion to the already tangential discussion about the validity of analogies in discussing and demonstrating points originally discussed.

[Orizuru]

I think my additional analogy has driven home the point that analogies can be used to represent a number of different things within even the same analogy, including both the obvious usefulness of analogies, as well as the apparent ability they have to obfuscate the original point and drive discussion off-topic by launching into a tangentially related discussion as to whether or not analogies are useful in expressing one's point with regard to the original topic at hand, which naturally would then only need to an orthogonally related discussion to the already tangential discussion about the validity of analogies in discussing and demonstrating points originally discussed.

 

I think you've gone off-topic a bit.

 

Weren't we talking about bacon cheeseburgers?

[Gomla]

BW exceeded my expectations with Strongholds, they are better than I thought they would be.

Perhaps they will exceed my expectations again with 3.0. We will know soon enough.

 

We're at opposite ends here.

 

Strongholds disappointed me. Besides being a huge credit sink the only use i've got out of them is for legacy storage, quick travel and a mailbox.

 

After playing another game recently and then coming back to this one, i've seen housing done far better than strongholds.

 

That said, I do feel optimistic about disciplines.

[sloasdaylight]

I think you've gone off-topic a bit.

 

Weren't we talking about bacon cheeseburgers?

 

Ergo, my point has been proved.

 

/mic drop

[WSS_Toxin]

I think you've gone off-topic a bit.

 

Weren't we talking about bacon cheeseburgers?

 

But what if that bacon cheeseburger had a green fried egg on it?

 

Next level is what.

[Slurmez]

The uniformity is a little saddening, in warhammer online we had tactics which were like the utility slots but also had the choice of about 50 different ones to choose from for our 4 slots so was able to carve out some individuality and build in some unique things.

[LyraineAlei]

Let's go back to the Hamburger analogy for a second.

 

Everyone's saying you don't have to eat a new McDonald's burger to know you won't like it because you don't like McDonald's burgers. Fine, fair enough, but that's not at all what this is like. It's like saying you won't eat an In and Out hamburger, or a Five Guys hamburger because McDonald's burgers are nasty. It doesn't make a lick of sense.

 

Dick's makes good burgers. Name of a restaurant in Seattle, on Broadway street. Washington State. Good place to get food, local owned, been in the area for most if not all of a century.

 

Anyway, why not withold the whining and end-days-are-here calling and give disciplines a try in a couple of weeks? It is too late for them to be reconsidered, sorry. But they don't look too bad from what I've seen so far.

 

Of course, most of the doomsaying could have been averted if communication between BW to us was less spotty. Like if BW told us a month ago when Disciplines were announced, what the changes were likely to be, we wouldn't have nearly as much WoW comparison because of the same name.

 

You like your hybrids? Too bad, BW doesn't want to bother with balancing hybrids with purebuilds, which has clearly resulted in no one who doesnt read the net below level 30 or play any other MMOs, knowing how to play their bleeping classes. If I need to go read a third party website just to know that my Bodyguard Merc should be using certain abilities, and not others (rocket punch, I see you there), then something isn't all properly taught. In game.

 

That being said, I follow the cult of Dulfy, and support the temples of Torhead and Swtor-spy.