Discipline System; I don't suppose there is still time to reconsider?

[Icebergy]

You're wasting your time.

The OP has already decided -based on other games- that he will hate the system no matter what.

There's no point in trying to convince someone who thinks he's giving feedback...based on a different system of a different game.

 

Um, no. That's not true at all. First off, I never said I hate anything.

 

Second, I believe I stated this already, but I hope I am wrong. It would make me happy to be wrong. I love this game and I want to continue to enjoy it. Even if I am right, I am sure I will still continue to enjoy the game overall.

 

But please, continue to roll your eyes and feel superior to me when you completely missed the point.

 

Judging SWTOR based on what you tried in W0W is just whining imo because it's apples and oranges.

 

Its actually more like comparing red apples to green apples, and either way its still not whining.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Icebergy

[aaronbeale]

I think killing off hybrids is a mistake IMO and the new skill trees seem very limiting, but i suppose launch day will tell.

 

As a Madness Sorc i was so looking forward to having creeping terror and forked lightning when I hit 60.

[Max_Killjoy]

You suppose right.

It's too late.

 

Besides, why condemn a system you haven't even tried yet?

 

The previews have made it pretty clear how wretched new system is...

[MillionsKNives]

I think killing off hybrids is a mistake IMO and the new skill trees seem very limiting, but i suppose launch day will tell.

 

As a Madness Sorc i was so looking forward to having creeping terror and forked lightning when I hit 60.

 

Killing off hybrids was probably one of the best decisions they've made. They did absolutely nothing positive for the game.

[Max_Killjoy]

Killing off hybrids was probably one of the best decisions they've made. They did absolutely nothing positive for the game.

 

That debate has been had, and no one's mind is changing.

 

Your comment is only true if you judge them from one very specific point of view.

[MisterBlackJack]

From what I understand, skill progression and the skills themselves aren't actually going to change all that much. They simply moved a lot of the skills into the level-progression path (on the left side of the window) and reworked the 3 skill trees into a different arrangement in 3 panes of skill tiers on the right side of the window.

 

Supposedly the biggest difference will be that some skills previously exclusive to someone putting all their skill points in one tree, will now be possible to use by anyone - essentially making hybrid skill sets more viable.

 

That is the complete opposite of what's happening here. This new system effectively kills hybrids

[MisterBlackJack]

Um, no. That's not true at all. First off, I never said I hate anything.

 

Second, I believe I stated this already, but I hope I am wrong. It would make me happy to be wrong. I love this game and I want to continue to enjoy it. Even if I am right, I am sure I will still continue to enjoy the game overall.

 

But please, continue to roll your eyes and feel superior to me when you completely missed the point.

 

 

 

Its actually more like comparing red apples to green apples, and either way its still not whining.

 

You have said this will make leveling boring. Please explain to me how this new system will make it boring as I have not heard one example or concrete evidence to support such a critique?

[MisterBlackJack]

I think killing off hybrids is a mistake IMO and the new skill trees seem very limiting, but i suppose launch day will tell.

 

As a Madness Sorc i was so looking forward to having creeping terror and forked lightning when I hit 60.

 

The question I ask you then is this which would you prefer, devs spending more development time on balancing around hybrids or focusing more on creating new content?

[OddballEasyEight]

As I stated in my post, I did try it already.

 

No you didn't. You tried WoW's system.

 

That's like saying "I don't need to try nacho pladder, I know I won't like it since I've already tried tacos".

[OddballEasyEight]

 

Yea OK. McDonalds comes out with a new hamburger, I don't think it sounds good, but I am not allowed to say so because I haven't eaten it.

 

A much more accurate analogy than you'd think.

Things you think sound unappetizing can actually be very tasty if put together with the right ingredients.

I don't like a certain topping (don't know its english name), but I had to eat it on a certain baguette once with other stuff that I normally like.

The result was that I actually loved that baguette. I still don't like the topping on anything else, but with those ingredients, it was perfect.

And if I had never tried it, I would never have known.

[Zoom_VI]

As a Madness Sorc i was so looking forward to having creeping terror and forked lightning when I hit 60.

This is why skill trees are bad.

 

But really hybrids are just one of many reasons that necessitated the switch to disciplines.

[Halinalle]

As a Madness Sorc i was so looking forward to having creeping terror ... when I hit 60.

 

Are you saying that you want it at level 60 instead of level 26?

Edited November 13, 2014 by Halinalle

[LordArtemis]

Well, they are going beyond preventing bad hybrids a bit...they are changing some of the abilities in notable ways.

[Levram]

I don't like a certain topping (don't know its english name)

 

lol - now I have to know; what's the topping!? Just put it in your native language or describe it and we'll get it figured out.

[Cbaoth]

Not sure why this was necessary, Tux.

 

 

 

Yea OK. McDonalds comes out with a new hamburger, I don't think it sounds good, but I am not allowed to say so because I haven't eaten it.

 

You are allowed to say whatever you want, as long as you understand that what you are saying it not based on facts or experienced. its just what you think it will be like, not what it will actually be like.

[BuriDogshin]

You are allowed to say whatever you want, as long as you understand that what you are saying it not based on facts or experienced. its just what you think it will be like, not what it will actually be like.

Cbaoth is of course correct: there is nothing in the Terms of Service that prohibits a poster from making a fool of themselves, or destroying their own reputation. Forum participants are asked to play nice with others, but need not show themselves any such consideration.

[Aussircaex]

To all those making food analogies:

 

You are perfectly within your rights to say a new food item, be it a new burger from McDonald's, a Frito Pizza or green apples, SOUNDS disgusting or unappetizing, based perhaps on having consumed similar dishes from other restaurants and disliking them. That is a basic learning function. You are allowed to find the similarity of the new dish to these previous ones unappealing.

 

What you cannot say, as the OP seems to want to do, is that it IS bad. You have not tried this restsurant's recipe. It's made with different ingredients and prepared differently. But you might be surprised. This new meal doesn't make the mistakes of the old one and actually tastes pretty good despite your early reservations.

[Turajin]

Lets say they gave you want you wanted and left the skill trees with their now-51 illusions of choice. [...]And what would the end result be? A system where you put 51 little tick marks on a window and yet, only get to make 1 or two meaningful choices (must of which boil down to Are you pvping? If yes, X, if not, Y.).

 

With Disciplines, you now get to make 7 choices.

Well, I'd rather go with the 51 "illusions" of choice than the 7 "illusions" of choice (at the moment, BW is just saying they are "soooooooo meaningful" - propably all 7 choices together are less meaningful than a single choice from the old system).

 

Or better: a System with 51 real choices than just 7 lame choices.

 

But I don't care how "meaningful" any choices might be ("meaningful" is very dependent from a personal point of view), I'd always vote for the system where you get more choices. With the disciples, leveling means nothing, because all decisions are made for you. You cannot develop you're character, the character is developed for you, and all you get is a little bit of twinking once a while, that in no way can be considered as "developing your character".

[Aussircaex]

Well, I'd rather go with the 51 "illusions" of choice than the 7 "illusions" of choice (at the moment, BW is just saying they are "soooooooo meaningful" - propably all 7 choices together are less meaningful than a single choice from the old system).

 

Or better: a System with 51 real choices than just 7 lame choices.

 

But I don't care how "meaningful" any choices might be ("meaningful" is very dependent from a personal point of view), I'd always vote for the system where you get more choices. With the disciples, leveling means nothing, because all decisions are made for you. You cannot develop you're character, the character is developed for you, and all you get is a little bit of twinking once a while, that in no way can be considered as "developing your character".

 

 

For the sake of an interesting discussion, I have an important question for you.

 

Why is more choice always better than less choice? What is the maximum amount of choice players should have before developers set limits?

 

For example, you have to select one of eight possible sets of abilities when making a character (by this I mean, creation and then at level 10). Should you have the choice of all of those abilities on one character? Should every player have access to every ability in the game, so long as they pick and choose among them? Is that always better than having certain limitations set by the game?

 

I ask these questions not in an accusatory manner; your opinion on the matter presumes that more choice always trumps less choice, but I'd like you to back up why you think that's true.

[Halinalle]

Well, I'd rather go with the 51 "illusions" of choice than the 7 "illusions" of choice (at the moment, BW is just saying they are "soooooooo meaningful" - propably all 7 choices together are less meaningful than a single choice from the old system).

 

Or better: a System with 51 real choices than just 7 lame choices.

 

But I don't care how "meaningful" any choices might be ("meaningful" is very dependent from a personal point of view), I'd always vote for the system where you get more choices. With the disciples, leveling means nothing, because all decisions are made for you. You cannot develop you're character, the character is developed for you, and all you get is a little bit of twinking once a while, that in no way can be considered as "developing your character".

 

They actually give use more interesting choices.

Have you ever started Marksman Sniper and then thought "but I want that passive from high up in Engineering tree. :("?

Edited November 13, 2014 by Halinalle

[BuriDogshin]

But I don't care how "meaningful" any choices might be ("meaningful" is very dependent from a personal point of view), I'd always vote for the system where you get more choices.

Here's a thought experiment for you:

 

Imagine a test composed of multiple yes-no choices, where you only pass the test if you get every choice right.

Would you rather have 7 choices, or 51?

 

Now, that's not exactly analogous to skill trees or disciplines. But there is a an applicable lessons: more choice can be a bad thing.

 

With skill trees, there were lots of ways to get a way-less-than-optimal build, only a few builds that were competent, and an occasional hybrid that "exceeded the designer's intent." I don't think any of us have stats on how many players are running around with awful awful skill tree builds that cripples their ability to enjoy the game (I certainly was before I invested the time in reading the various online guides), but BW could have those stats, and they may indicate a lot of people are hosing themselves pretty badly with their choices, which might have figured in to the decision to go with (and the design of) disciplines.

 

Or maybe not, but it's something to consider.

Edited November 13, 2014 by BuriDogshin

[LordArtemis]

IMO, the most choice is a system like the one in the current SWGEMU, or SWG pre-CU/NGE. There may be other games out there that had that level of ability customization, but I haven't found one yet.

 

The least amount of choice is probably the kind of system they are implementing, minus the "utilities".

 

IMO this game always fell pretty close to the "little to no choice" spectrum. Most games that have this type of point assignment system only give the illusion of choice, as it is specifically designed to force you take things you do not want or need to get at worthy skills.

 

So this system is not that much of a difference from the current system choice wise IMO.

 

The big difference is coming with the changes to the actual abilities.

[Max_Killjoy]

You are allowed to say whatever you want, as long as you understand that what you are saying it not based on facts or experienced. its just what you think it will be like, not what it will actually be like.

 

Guess what caviar tastes like -- go on, guess.

 

Salty fish eggs.

 

If you don't like salty food or fishy food, you won't like caviar.

 

You don't need to try it to know you won't like it, and no amount of some goofus saying "but you haven't tried good caviar" or "you haven't tried this caviar" is going to change the simple fact that salty fish eggs taste like salty fish eggs.

 

IMO, the most choice is a system like the one in the current SWGEMU, or SWG pre-CU/NGE. There may be other games out there that had that level of ability customization, but I haven't found one yet.

 

The least amount of choice is probably the kind of system they are implementing, minus the "utilities".

 

IMO this game always fell pretty close to the "little to no choice" spectrum. Most games that have this type of point assignment system only give the illusion of choice, as it is specifically designed to force you take things you do not want or need to get at worthy skills.

 

So this system is not that much of a difference from the current system choice wise IMO.

 

The big difference is coming with the changes to the actual abilities.

 

Really?

 

In the current system, if I have to take more than a point or two in skills I don't want to get to the next tier on a tree, I just stop going up that tree.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[Karkais]

Again - complaining about a system that has not been released yet is pointless.

 

No it is not. There are multiple cases of MMO developers reconsidering their plans given enough negative feedback. Not that I believe it would happen here.

 

For the record, I am opposing the new system.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Karkais

[Starglitter]

Mmm...

 

One of the reasons I been asking for real detailed information from the devs in a forum site, is for one to be truthful information, and not somebody's opinion or idea of what it would be. The second reason is so that I an study the changes for myself and derive reasonable conclusions to discuss with other players to fine-tune my observations.

 

From the sketchy information made available, it really looks like the nurf bat is coming to us in December, but agreed the nurf bat will come concealed with pretty lights and whistles. Now why I lean towards the belief of a nurf?

 

The first glint of trouble is in looking at the disiplines themselves and the choices of skills, and then look at our skill trees optimized for DPS, healing or taking, it does not take long to see that a number of critical skills are not carried over, and some folks are making the important questions: How does this impact my rotations?

 

If you study the skill trees, you will realize some skills aguments damage directly, others sets combos to reduce the amount of energy taken to do an effect (damage, heal, mitigate damage), other skills enables new effect bonuses if the proper sequence is performed. Now if you look at the sketchy disiciplines' information it appears that many of this augmenting skills are gone. That would mean, your damage cap is reduced, and worse yet, you could very well find yourself getting exhausted much more sooner even if currently you never did.

 

Another observation in the trees is that they have skills that augment accuracy, critical chance, surge, stats, etc. Notice the disciplines does not and can not provide nearly as robust a coverage as the trees does, so what does that mean to you? Well, it would seem to me, that since you do not have as high crit chance as you currently do post 3.0, your gear mods will have to be changed, out goes the power to be replaced for crit and surge; and subsequently your total effect (DPS, Heal, Tank) is decreased as well.

 

So now you are hit in two very painful ways, your skill tree boosters are reduced and you have to change your gear to recover your crit/surge/acc percentages and which will a result of a decrease of performance.

 

Perhaps my conclusions are wrong, since the data is at best sketchy...

 

Sue