OrionSol Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Now I know there are going to be trolls, fanboys and cult followers trashing my thread here, and I am prepared for that. That said, DEVs, before you introduce the Disciplines system to the game, in effect dumbing down the game from a chess game to a checkers game, I highly recommend you go read, and re-read the history of the NGE in SWG. Keep in mind, while you have a larger group in SWTOR, you have many of the old SWG customers, and many of them this is fresh in their mind. You also need to ask yourself, who was asking for this change? The customers or the employees? Because ever lame excuse I've seen it was "it will make it easier for us" and not "our customers were asking for" Here is an article where the President of SEO bemoans the utter stupidity of changing the game the way the NGE did: http://www.edge-online.com/news/star-wars-galaxies-changes-complete-and-utter-fail-says-soe-president/ If you are going to radically change the game this much, you need to be 100% absolutely fraking sure you are not going to enrage your customers and destroy the social network of the game by doing something that makes players leave the game. Don't repeat history and piss off your current customers. If even a 1/4 of the customers dont like this system it will cause major problems for SWTOR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vashforth Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) NGE was a complete revamp of the game. Disciplines remove hybrids and the illusion of choice. Completely different scale bud! Edited October 14, 2014 by Vashforth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Essence_of_Light Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 nge was a complete revamp of the game. Disciplines removes hybrids and the illusion of choice. Completely different scale bud! ^^qft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Wicked Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 I am not enraged. I am willing to give it a try. Regardless, I am here more so for the story-driven experience, not so much the purpose of achieving ONLY 10000 DPS instead of 12000 DPS. Also, nice to see our weekly quota for SWG-related threads is going strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrionSol Posted October 14, 2014 Author Share Posted October 14, 2014 I am not enraged. I am willing to give it a try. Regardless, I am here more so for the story-driven experience, not so much the purpose of achieving ONLY 10000 DPS instead of 12000 DPS. Also, nice to see our weekly quota for SWG-related threads is going strong. The SWG posts are what they are. I'm with you, I will give it a fair shake... I am just trying to give the DEVs fair warning, people are going to be pissed if this changes their game play too much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadoken Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) Apples to Oranges. This isn't anything similar to the NGE. Actually more like Apples to Chicken. Edited October 14, 2014 by hadoken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vashforth Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Regardless of the skill changes, whenever they add levels and abilities with an expansion things change. Even if they were to just add onto the skill trees, rotations and play styles would be affected. Its just the consequence of the game moving forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Wicked Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) Apples to Oranges. This isn't anything similar to the NGE. Actually more like Apples to Chicken. https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/2086064384/h16917F23/ Edited October 14, 2014 by Darth_Wicked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cordarn Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 I think your looking at disciplines as to much of an antagonist to the game. Its not like we even have that much info other then they won't allow you to spec in other trees simultaneously. But to compensate for that (I assume) they are adding extra utilities for that reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reno_Tarshil Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Lol SWG. Disciplines is going to be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlienEyeTX Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 The SWG posts are what they are. I'm with you, I will give it a fair shake... I am just trying to give the DEVs fair warning, people are going to be pissed if this changes their game play too much You think they don't know this already? Like they just do these things on a whim or something? They've thought this through. The least we can do is give it a chance before rioting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delta_V Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 The NGE was a complete revamp of the entire gameplay of SWG. It was called "New Game Experience" for a reason, although the decision to so fundamentally change a game that late in it's life-cycle was incredibly risky to begin with. The fact that the players of the old game thought many of the changes made the game worse instead of better caused that risk to blow up in their face. The Discipline System isn't even in the same ballpark as the NGE. It only changes the way the skill trees are presented and eliminates hybrid builds. It has no effect on the basic combat system. The Disciplines have been designed to preserve the playstyle of the Specs they replace, but wrapped up in a package that is easier to balance and gives players access to key abilities at an earlier level. Comparing that to what NGE did is ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alec_Fortescue Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 It's not nge, it's basically the same thing WoW did. They're copying one another now. WoW introduces garrisons which are basically strongholds and swtor introduced disciplines which are wow-like new talent system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadescythe Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Players weren't requresting a change to skill trees, but they were complaining about balance, complaining about hybrids, and wanting new abilities/skills with the expansion. Considering the vast majority of abilities and skills are still available, I don't think this change is all that drastic for 99% of the player base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chosonman Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) Speaking of SWG anyone else beside me remember surveying for resources and deploying your mining station and collecting resources that way? It was a lot of work lol. I think the class that I miss the most was the Creature Handler. Really cool concept kind of like a pokemon collector for SWG players. I remember wanting to be a jedi so bad.. but it didn't happen until much after CU and when then sent me a free monthly pass. Edited October 14, 2014 by chosonman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orizuru Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Nothing like a good old fashioned fallacious argument to liven the place up a bit. Has anyone fixed that darn popcorn machine yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azudelphi Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Nothing like a good old fashioned fallacious argument to liven the place up a bit. Has anyone fixed that darn popcorn machine yet? The machine is fine. Michael Jackson just keeps eating it all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sangrar Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Players weren't requresting a change to skill trees, but they were complaining about balance, complaining about hybrids, and wanting new abilities/skills with the expansion. Considering the vast majority of abilities and skills are still available, I don't think this change is all that drastic for 99% of the player base. that and I know a few months ago as rumors of an increased level cap kept going around, people made threads complaining against it, and one reason was that adding new skill would throw off balance again with the increase of the levels, so I guess that was the solution. and OP, while the customers did not SPECIFICALLY ask for it, the customers have always been asking for better class balance so this might be a step in that direction. also, I was not an SWG player but I thought the NGE or whatever changed all of combat or something right, well disciplines only does the job that skills once did and combat will be pretty much the same ( except for of course a few new abilities), disciplines while a major change still leaves everything else pretty much the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZionHalcyon Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 I am not enraged. I am willing to give it a try. Regardless, I am here more so for the story-driven experience, not so much the purpose of achieving ONLY 10000 DPS instead of 12000 DPS. Also, nice to see our weekly quota for SWG-related threads is going strong. Dear God, you ain't kidding. Its ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elyx Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) Im in agreement with the apples and oranges comment. Also, the group that is vehemently against this change is a very small group of players that focus specifically on bybrid builds. if you browse the threads against the idea, you will find the exact same group of 5-6 people in the forums that are against it. the rest of the playerbase is either for it, or like me and is of the principle I will see how it works out. Wow did something similar (even more extreme in dumbing down the process), and they are stil solvent as a company (and still holding higher sub numbers then most other MMO's out there). I don't play WoW anymore, im not a pro-WoW person, but i recognize that they did some things well, even if i don't agree with their method. As long as Bioware keeps enough flexibility in the system, and continues to reward players for the leveling experience (which is the biggest issue with these simplified systems...far less reward for leveling), the system will work. A small sub-group of players will be dissapointed no matter what, and will have to decide moving forward if this is the game for them. This is not even close to NGE. it was a niche game, with a specific style of player enjoying it. they turned it into something totally different, and destroyed the game. This change is only removing the illusion of flexibility in the system. And please note that i am not belittling the group of players that enjoys hybrids, nor do i think that they're opinion isn't valid. it is. Unfortunately, when games this size have to make hardlined budget and resource decisions, then tend to have to go with the bulk of the playerbase, i.e. what will net the most players with the most results. and since most of the players optimize their builds, they are going with a system that pre-optimizes for us. this is far less dumbing down then it is simply removing a process that most everyone was already using to get the results they wanted. process is removed so we don't have to manually do it. They key will be keeping the flexibility via the utility skills prevalent and interesting. Edited October 14, 2014 by Elyx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onrush Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 It's not nge, it's basically the same thing WoW did. They're copying one another now. WoW introduces garrisons which are basically strongholds and swtor introduced disciplines which are wow-like new talent system. WoW is also implementing their own take on Bolster. Not sure how it will play out. Quote from the "Equipping for Battle " post for Warlords. On top of that, all gear—even gear found in PvE content—will be scaled up to a certain minimum item level in any designated PvP area. That minimum is still lower than any of the actual PvP gear, but a fresh level-100 character who’s just wearing some dungeon gear, or even whatever they picked up while questing, will not be at quite as severe a disadvantage should they choose to step into a Skirmish or Random Battleground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuixupu Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 Disciplines really isn't changing the game at all. You're getting the same results in a more streamlined fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperswhip Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) Now I know there are going to be trolls, fanboys and cult followers trashing my thread here, and I am prepared for that. That said, DEVs, before you introduce the Disciplines system to the game, in effect dumbing down the game from a chess game to a checkers game, I highly recommend you go read, and re-read the history of the NGE in SWG. Keep in mind, while you have a larger group in SWTOR, you have many of the old SWG customers, and many of them this is fresh in their mind. You also need to ask yourself, who was asking for this change? The customers or the employees? Because ever lame excuse I've seen it was "it will make it easier for us" and not "our customers were asking for" Don't repeat history and piss off your current customers. If even a 1/4 of the customers dont like this system it will cause major problems for SWTOR. Don't need to have played it, I was deep in DAOC at the time and NGE had hit by the time I finished there so I had no will to play. That patch was a tidal wave through the MMO community, I am sorry I was busy laughing at you guys at the time. I'd watched video of the game play before and after. Sorry, but we all heard about it. Disciplines really isn't changing the game at all. You're getting the same results in a more streamlined fashion. Streamlining is a very dirty word in the PC gaming community, you should be ashamed. Edited October 14, 2014 by Viperswhip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wasabi Posted October 14, 2014 Share Posted October 14, 2014 (edited) Ok, so I went to youtube and searched for "SWTOR Disciplines". At first, like you, I was worried they would screw things up. After seeing it all explained(they actually show it and how it works), I'm excited about it. Now the problem I see, is it might be too complicated for a large percentage of the SWTOR player base. To reference your SWG/NGE story, the NGE was a complete dumbing down of the game. The difference here is SWTOR from the start is even more dumbed down than the NGE was. Still, in chat, it seems many SWTOR players have a difficult time figuring out simple things, like how to use the map to find what they're looking for or where to go, where/how to spend skill points, how to craft, so on. I think the Discipline system is going to be painful for those that can't figure how to logically spend skill points in the current system. Personally, I love the idea of being able to pick up the ability to cast my high damage attack while on the move...lol Edited October 14, 2014 by Wasabi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kissakias Posted October 15, 2014 Share Posted October 15, 2014 the SWTOR is the most unbalanced class MMO game so far, so i think i'll support the new and hope not to messed up so much again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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