Anyone else totally bummed at the complete removal of Hybrids?

[Max_Killjoy]

It's called competition. We are either trying to win against other players or win against scripted challenges... to do so, you want to bring the best you can to the table for either of those encounters.

 

And again, for what I've been doing, for what I actually care about playing, the builds I've used have been great.

 

I'd rather have a mix of abilities and be flexible, than be a maxed out.

 

My favorite class is Merc, precisely because I have heavy armor, good attacks, and some healing ability.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[TUXs]

And again, for what I've been doing, for what I actually care about playing, the builds I've used have been great.

You'll find new ones. Get over it.

[azudelphi]

And again, for what I've been doing, for what I actually care about playing, the builds I've used have been great.

 

That's fine. But it can't be ignored that the system as it stands allows for FotM overpowered specs that have negative impacts on PVP and PVE per their design.

 

So, the system has to change. There is no way to avoid that.

[Max_Killjoy]

You'll find new ones. Get over it.

 

Or I'll just ignore that part of the game entirely too, since they can't seem to leave it be and have to constantly change it in response to player whining about which opposing classes they can't faceroll.

 

 

That's fine. But it can't be ignored that the system as it stands allows for FotM overpowered specs that have negative impacts on PVP and PVE per their design.

 

So, the system has to change. There is no way to avoid that.

 

Overpowered compared to what? The only place that matters is PvP, and all these does is confirm my theory that PvP is the source of a deathspiral that ruins all MMOs eventually.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[MillionsKNives]

This. The game is going to be balanced around the places where characters do interact. If a player decides to be more reclusive (aside from hopping on the forums?) to avoid drama, then they aren't part of the problem. But if the system affects group play in an MMO, you better expect it to be balanced. In fact, I'd feel the devs would be in the wrong if they didn't come up with a way to address potential imbalance with 5 new levels. Something had to be done; I'm not saying this is the perfect solution, but it seems reasonable and has actually been worked out fairly well (pending more information on dots, cleanses, etc)...

 

Agreed, I had thought about how they would be balancing the trees given this level raise and others in the future, and it just wasn't going to be pretty if they were going to do it the way they did in the past. It was an unsustainable system. Most likely they would have to move everything further up the tree and then rebalance every class to give them a reason to waste 5 skill points early in the tree. This would just make the already painful early game even worse, since you have to wait even longer to get into the meat of your class.

 

The solution they've come up with I think is a rather elegant solution to a (few) difficult problem.

[TUXs]

Agreed, I had thought about how they would be balancing the trees given this level raise and others in the future, and it just wasn't going to be pretty if they were going to do it the way they did in the past. It was an unsustainable system. Most likely they would have to move everything further up the tree and then rebalance every class to give them a reason to waste 5 skill points early in the tree. This would just make the already painful early game even worse, since you have to wait even longer to get into the meat of your class.

 

The solution they've come up with I think is a rather elegant solution to a (few) difficult problem.

Yeah, the only alternative I saw was locking a tree the moment you put a point in it until you capped the whole tree (36 pts), then allowing you to spread the extra few points as you wanted...but that accomplished less than Disciplines does because there were still a ton of wasted points in that 36 point tree.

 

I agree...this seems like a nice system.

Edited October 9, 2014 by TUXs

[Max_Killjoy]

Agreed, I had thought about how they would be balancing the trees given this level raise and others in the future, and it just wasn't going to be pretty if they were going to do it the way they did in the past. It was an unsustainable system. Most likely they would have to move everything further up the tree and then rebalance every class to give them a reason to waste 5 skill points early in the tree. This would just make the already painful early game even worse, since you have to wait even longer to get into the meat of your class.

 

The solution they've come up with I think is a rather elegant solution to a (few) difficult problem.

 

I'm not mad about any of that -- if that was it, I'd have no problem.

 

What I'm mad about is that they're giving the middle finger to anyone who doesn't want to be a cookie-cutter one-trick pony, and doesn't want to chase around the FotM maxed-out build every time a new patch rolls around.

[MillionsKNives]

People talk about "best builds" and "focusing on one tree" all the time, it's easy to tell what other people are playing if you pay attention at all.

 

I thought you were avoiding people at all cost, not paying attention to them all. And that still leaves point number two, why do you care? So what if you're the same spec as someone else (you won't be, most people will be more diverse with the utilities than they were with the trees), how does that affect you in any way?

[TUXs]

I'm not mad about any of that -- if that was it, I'd have no problem.

 

What I'm mad about is that they're giving the middle finger to anyone who doesn't want to be a cookie-cutter one-trick pony, and doesn't want to chase around the FotM maxed-out build every time a new patch rolls around.

 

Max...you'll still have choices...you realize that right? You'll still be able to pick a few BIG skills that benefit your playstyle most...if we meet, we won't have the same skills most likely.

[azudelphi]

Or I'll just ignore that part of the game entirely too, since they can't seem to leave it be and have to constantly change it in response to player whining about which opposing classes they can't faceroll.

 

Overpowered compared to what? The only place that matters is PvP, and all these does is confirm my theory that PvP is the source of a deathspiral that ruins all MMOs eventually.

 

Overpowered compared to the intended design.

 

Basically, the devs intend for all dps to be roughly +/- 5% of each other. If an untested spec is 20% higher than any other, then that's a design flaw. It must be fixed. It doesn't matter whether it rears its head in PVP or PVE.

[Max_Killjoy]

I thought you were avoiding people at all cost, not paying attention to them all. And that still leaves point number two, why do you care? So what if you're the same spec as someone else (you won't be, most people will be more diverse with the utilities than they were with the trees), how does that affect you in any way?

 

I'm here right now because I realized that they were going to WoW the skill trees, and it pisses me off.

 

Max...you'll still have choices...you realize that right? You'll still be able to pick a few BIG skills that benefit your playstyle most...if we meet, we won't have the same skills most likely.

 

So, for example, my Sorc will still be able to take a bit of this, and a bit of that, and do the equivalent of ignoring the top half of the skill trees?

[Max_Killjoy]

Overpowered compared to the intended design.

 

Basically, the devs intend for all dps to be roughly +/- 5% of each other. If an untested spec is 20% higher than any other, then that's a design flaw. It must be fixed. It doesn't matter whether it rears its head in PVP or PVE.

 

If I'm actually in a group, and the guy next to me is doing 20% extra damage, good for him, gets us through the thing faster and in better shape.

 

If I'm out playing solo and the guy fighting the next group of mobs over is doing 20% more damage, good for him, no skin off my nose.

[azudelphi]

I'm here right now because I realized that they were going to WoW the skill trees, and it pisses me off.

 

So, for example, my Sorc will still be able to take a bit of this, and a bit of that, and do the equivalent of ignoring the top half of the skill trees?

 

No, but you'll be ability to select durability, self-healing, mobility, increased damage, improved cc's, and other such utilities.

 

If you haven't, check out Dulfy's recap of all the utilities for a Sorc... you'll have a core identity for each class, but there are different advantages you can take using utility points.

 

Dulfy's Guide to Sorc Disciplines

 

If I'm actually in a group, and the guy next to me is doing 20% extra damage, good for him, gets us through the thing faster and in better shape.

 

If I'm out playing solo and the guy fighting the next group of mobs over is doing 20% more damage, good for him, no skin off my nose.

 

The issue is when the theoretical top ends are drastically off, that you have people flock to those specs. It creates imbalances. That's the problem.

Edited October 9, 2014 by azudelphi

[Max_Killjoy]

No, but you'll be ability to select durability, self-healing, mobility, increased damage, improved cc's, and other such utilities.

 

If you haven't, check out Dulfy's recap of all the utilities for a Sorc... you'll have a core identity for each class, but there are different advantages you can take using utility points.

 

Dulfy's Guide to Sorc Disciplines

 

I'll take a look, but meh, not really interested in a "core identity" that's any stronger than we already get from taking a particular class / AC.

[azudelphi]

I'll take a look, but meh, not really interested in a "core identity" that's any stronger than we already get from taking a particular class / AC.

 

The core identity is on a per spec basis. It was the original design. However the original system led to imbalance. It must be fixed so long as there is group content in this game.

Edited October 9, 2014 by azudelphi

[MillionsKNives]

I'm here right now because I realized that they were going to WoW the skill trees, and it pisses me off.

 

I ask again.

 

And that still leaves point number two, why do you care? So what if you're the same spec as someone else (you won't be, most people will be more diverse with the utilities than they were with the trees), how does that affect you in any way?

[JoeeyyMagzz]

I agree with the OP.

 

Removing diversity and flexibility is BAD for the game. If this is done poorly (and I will admit I don't know a lot about it yet), it could easily KILL this game.

 

I love hyperbole. No matter how many words you capitalize in your insane statement, it is not, and will not, be true. First off, one could argue that the new system increases diversity by allowing players to choose the Passive's that compliment their playstyle and automatically giving them the "mandatory" abilities for their spec. Also, this is similar to what WoW did with talents back during Cataclysm and that did not kill WoW in the slightest. Simplifying something does not automatically weaken it, or make it worse.

 

However, what will kill -- and has already severely damaged -- this game is one new Operation every year and a half and calling Nightmare modes additional content. Don't paint a pony pink and call it a pig... players aren't that dumb. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the game thoroughly, my problem is that I can't get my friends to come back because they are still a tad sour about content pace between patches 1.0 and 1.2. Then they hear about a year between Operation releases and the "new" release is a Nightmare mode of the same Operation... they laugh and validate their choice to not play anymore.

[Bomberman]

I love hyperbole. No matter how many words you capitalize in your insane statement, it is not, and will not, be true. First off, one could argue that the new system increases diversity by allowing players to choose the Passive's that compliment their playstyle and automatically giving them the "mandatory" abilities for their spec. Also, this is similar to what WoW did with talents back during Cataclysm and that did not kill WoW in the slightest. Simplifying something does not automatically weaken it, or make it worse.

 

However, what will kill -- and has already severely damaged -- this game is one new Operation every year and a half and calling Nightmare modes additional content. Don't paint a pony pink and call it a pig... players aren't that dumb. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the game thoroughly, my problem is that I can't get my friends to come back because they are still a tad sour about content pace between patches 1.0 and 1.2. Then they hear about a year between Operation releases and the "new" release is a Nightmare mode of the same Operation... they laugh and validate their choice to not play anymore.

 

Which is ONE reason this new system will be better as they won't have to worry about balancing as much and be able to focus on bringing us more content which includes Operations, Flashpoints etc.

I am really looking forward to this new Discipline system.

Just my two cents

Edited October 9, 2014 by Bomberman

[Max_Killjoy]

The core identity is on a per spec basis. It was the original design. However the original system led to imbalance. It must be fixed so long as there is group content in this game.

 

Trying to figure out how close I can get to this:

 

 

 

Forceweaver 2/2

Seeping Darkness 3/3

Empty Body 2/2

Dark Mending 2/2

Lucidity 1/1

Force Bending 2/2

Resurgence 1/1

Efficacious Currents 2/2

Sith Purity 1/1

Reconstruct 2/2

Force Suffusion 2/2

Innervate 1/1

Corrupted Barrier 2/2

Life Surge 1/2 (had a point to put somewhere...)

 

Reserves 2/2

Electric Induction 3/3

Lightning Barrier 2/2

 

Sith Defiance 2/2

Will of the Sith 2/2

Calcify 1/3 (needed one more point here to open up the next tier)

Oppressing Force 2/2

Force Horrors 3/3

Death Field 1/1

Sith Efficacy 3/3

Madness 1/1

 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2014 by Max_Killjoy

[Max_Killjoy]

And that still leaves point number two, why do you care? So what if you're the same spec as someone else (you won't be, most people will be more diverse with the utilities than they were with the trees), how does that affect you in any way?

 

Ironically, the concern for how other people build their characters seems to come mainly from those defending this change, not those who are opposed to it.

[Transcendent]

No, but I'm going to miss choosing my 9 extras in the 2 other trees depending on fight, I liked that you could switch it up a bit and be rewarded for different strategies, styles of thinking etc.

 

That purely depends on where those "extras" end up in the disciplines system, they may well have decided that some of them should be core abilities.

 

Personally I think it's a little too soon to be crying about removal of hybrids by the OP, when we may well be gaining hybrids when the talents get moved around in the combat proficiencies / utility slots. Until we actually see what they're doing, how do we know what we're getting? How do we know they haven't moved certain abilities to the basic combat part of each class?

 

We simply don't know at this stage (well Sorc. have a fair idea of what they're getting, but even that might be altered between now and 3.0).

 

Personally, good. Get rid of hybrids. I've had enough of skank healers etc. in PvP, i'll miss the ability to alter spec slightly per fight in PvE (operations, depending on fight / boss).

 

I'm hoping the disciplines system will also be addressing players queuing in group finder as the completely wrong role. Be nice of Eric / Tait to let us know on this one.

[Xatasha]

Which is ONE reason this new system will be better as they won't have to worry about balancing as much and be able to focus on bringing us more content which includes Operations, Flashpoints etc.

I am really looking forward to this new Discipline system.

Just my two cents

 

What I fear the "new system" will do is show that our dev team is lazy and couldn't balance pvp so they took away many of the players choices. Plus it is unlikely to bring back players....after all it isn't new content....just a revamped skill tree.

 

Hope it is a great change but I won't hold my breath

[Delta_V]

If I'm actually in a group, and the guy next to me is doing 20% extra damage, good for him, gets us through the thing faster and in better shape.

 

If I'm out playing solo and the guy fighting the next group of mobs over is doing 20% more damage, good for him, no skin off my nose.

 

And this shows that you fundamentally do not understand endgame PVE.

 

If a guild is progressing through a new tier of Ops and struggling with it, they need every ounce of dps they can get. If Spec A is doing 20% more damage than Spec B, do you really think they'll run with anyone using Spec B? Hell no. They'll only let people use Spec A because it gives them a better shot at clearing the content.

 

We saw that happen with Snipers/Gunslingers before they got nerfed (they ended up getting nerfed a little too hard, but that's not the point). At one point, they offered some of the best dps plus incredible group utility, and guilds flocked to them. There were 16-man groups that ran Snipers as 9 out of their 10 dps, with the other spot reserved for a Marauder for Bloodthirst.

 

And that is why balance is important for PVE. People should be able to run whichever spec they want, but if the balance is broken, groups will only accept the overpowered specs.

[MillionsKNives]

Ironically, the concern for how other people build their characters seems to come mainly from those defending this change, not those who are opposed to it.

 

Then why were you repeatedly saying that you couldn't stomach the thought of being the same spec as everyone else?

[Max_Killjoy]

And this shows that you fundamentally do not understand endgame PVE.

 

If a guild is progressing through a new tier of Ops and struggling with it, they need every ounce of dps they can get. If Spec A is doing 20% more damage than Spec B, do you really think they'll run with anyone using Spec B? Hell no. They'll only let people use Spec A because it gives them a better shot at clearing the content.

 

We saw that happen with Snipers/Gunslingers before they got nerfed (they ended up getting nerfed a little too hard, but that's not the point). At one point, they offered some of the best dps plus incredible group utility, and guilds flocked to them. There were 16-man groups that ran Snipers as 9 out of their 10 dps, with the other spot reserved for a Marauder for Bloodthirst.

 

And that is why balance is important for PVE. People should be able to run whichever spec they want, but if the balance is broken, groups will only accept the overpowered specs.

 

And so the solution is to tell everyone who doesn't want to be a cookie-cutter one-trick-pony, or who wants to build their character around solo play, to take a flying leap?