Kaggath Battlegrounds Heats - Fist of the Empire vs the Confederacy

[Beniboybling]

Sorry I've been away for a while, I'm on holiday and where I am doesn't have much wifi access.

 

But come on guys do I really need to bump this? Debate already!

 

Seriously though some proper ground discussion would be great, as in how the Confederacy's ground forces are going to far against the Fist's forces, how effective they will be and what kind of end game plans will be put in place.

 

I want walls of text, I demand walls of text.

 

Anyway I can't say when I'll next be able to reply, so I'm counting on you.

[Selenial]

Emergency Arbiter powers activated

 

No but seriously, I'll post up some soon. Finally back to my PC tonight.... Hope you have a great holiday! I'll try keep these rascals in line for you

[Beniboybling]

Emergency Arbiter powers activated

 

No but seriously, I'll post up some soon. Finally back to my PC tonight.... Hope you have a great holiday! I'll try keep these rascals in line for you

Feel free to do so. I'm really not going to be as available as I thought I would be able to be.

[Selenial]

Feel free to do so. I'm really not going to be as available as I thought I would be able to be.

 

 

Oh this is going to be great

[Beniboybling]

 

Oh this is going to be great

Why do I have this feeling that when I return to my fair kingdom after a long exodus I'm going to find it under new rulership.

[Selenial]

Why do I have this feeling that when I return to my fair kingdom after a long exodus I'm going to find it under new rulership.

 

Their loyalty shall belong to me!

 

But you don't need to worry about that until you get back

[Silenceo]

Their loyalty shall belong to me!

 

But you don't need to worry about that until you get back

 

All Hail Queen Selenial!

 

All Hail Queen Selenial!

 

All Hail Queen Selenial!

 

 

 

As for the demanding wall of texts...

[Aurbere]

Sorry I've been away for a while, I'm on holiday and where I am doesn't have much wifi access.

 

But come on guys do I really need to bump this? Debate already!

 

Seriously though some proper ground discussion would be great, as in how the Confederacy's ground forces are going to far against the Fist's forces, how effective they will be and what kind of end game plans will be put in place.

 

I want walls of text, I demand walls of text.

 

Anyway I can't say when I'll next be able to reply, so I'm counting on you.

 

I've been really busy lately so I haven't had time for text walls. I'll try to be more active, but no promises.

[Beniboybling]

Come on folks help an Arbiter out here, the tournament can't progress if this debate comes to a halt. I realize Aurbere is busy but the Kaggath is designed to operate without faction creators. So for the Maker's sake debate!

[Selenial]

Come on folks help an Arbiter out here, the tournament can't progress if this debate comes to a halt. I realize Aurbere is busy but the Kaggath is designed to operate without faction creators. So for the Maker's sake debate!

 

Strongholds.

 

/5char

[Beniboybling]

Bah! When did SWTOR become more important that the Kaggath!

[tausra]

I'm gonna go back 5 pages and see where we stalled. See if I can't start a fight over something.

[tausra]

Next, we move onto underworld tech.

 

Underworld Influence

 

#119 Each faction will be prequipped by any basic weapons and supplies their supplier and/or organisation can provide e.g. small arms, armor, fighters/transports, elite tech etc. and altogether anything that would be logical to have already armed. What is allowed under this ruling however will ultimately be up to the discretion of the Arbiter.

“It was involved in every known type of illegal activity; its information networks surpassed even the accuracy and scope of Imperial Intelligence.”

“Black market technology was often employed by pirates and other criminal organizations such as the Zann Consortium.”

 

• Bulldog RLR

• Buzz droid technology (StarViper-class attack platform)

• Carbonite missile technology (Missile Attack Launcher)

• Cloaking technology (F9-TZ Transport, Merciless, Vengeance-class frigate)

• Core Overload works (MZ-8 Mobile Pulse Cannon, Aggressor-class Star Destroyer, Vengeance-class frigate)

• Disruptor technology (Mercenaries)

• Full missile salvo technology (Interceptor IV frigate)

• Illicit Electronics products (Flesh camouflage, SB-20 security breach droid)

• Laser point-defense technology (Crusader-class corvette)

• Proximity mine technology (Mercenaries)

• SD-6 Hulk infantry droid

• Sensor jamming technology (GAT-12 Skipray Blastboat)

• Shields leeching works (Keldabe-class battleship)

 

So, I'll be taking these things. And those are specifically what the Zann Consortium had. I'm sure Black Sun had access to jammers, weaponry, and even more cloaking devices.

 

 

Alright, its fighting time! I guarantee this will ruffle a feather or four. The above items and benefits cannot be provided at the start of the Kaggath, as they are modifications and straight up upgrades to other things. They will likely take a good deal of time to manufacture and deliver. The delivery will also be incredibly difficult as the CIS navy fled the planet, as per their tactics. You can funnel money as fast as you want into acquiring these objects, but travel time and blockade running can't be bought off.

 

Secondly, I call shenanigans on half of Urai's rumored abilities. Cutting into vehicles and single-handedly shredding infantry? Yeah, those are game mechanics, not actual events. Even then there is no references to him being comparable to a force user of Ventress, Dooku or anyone similar.

[Aurbere]

Sorry I've been so busy lately. School's been rough the past couple of weeks so I've been putting most of my time into that (as should be expected, right? ). However, I'm hoping to start having more time in the next couple of weeks. In the meantime, I have this post I wrote up a while ago that I shared with Sel, so I'm going to go ahead and post it.

 

So in the event that the Fist can’t get the Colicoids to defect, it will include them in Plan B.

 

It was revealed in Dark Rendezvous that the Trade Federation and the Separatists engaged in mass droid hacking across the Republic. With the aid of Sith Intelligence, the Fist will be able to recreate a similar virus to send to Confederate troops.

 

First is the Nest’s role in all of this. Imperial agents will infiltrate the Colicoid factories and plant a virus on the production lines (similar to what the Republic did during the Clone Wars), causing all future models to behave erratically, turning them against the CIC. This will take some time to be fixed, but by then it will be too late.

 

Next is the Trade Federation’s role. They will use their signal transmissions to transmit their own virus to CIC troops, turning them against the Confederacy as well. We know that this is possible because it was done during the Clone Wars. The Trade Federation will know how to tailor the virus specifically for the CICs troops, and use their transmission technology to spread the virus.

 

With these viruses put into place, the Fist can neutralize and convert the Confederacy’s military. This will make for a quick victory for the Fist of the Empire. If you doubt that this can be done, allow me to alleviate you of these doubts.

 

The Trade Federation hacked Republic droids during the Clone Wars, likewise, the Republic hacked Separatist droids during the Clone Wars. The Trade Federation helped develop all of the CICs infantry units. This shows that the Trade Federation has the ability to hack into the CICs droids. The Sith Empire developed and employed viruses on worlds such as Balmorra and Hutta. This shows that Imperial Intelligence has the ability to employ cybernetic warfare.

 

Basically, the Trade Federation has the ability to do this, Sith Intelligence has the ability to do this, and they have the ability to deploy it. Against an all droid army, there is no reason for them not to do this.

 

There's my plan B, Sel. You know you love it.

[Aurbere]

Alright, its fighting time! I guarantee this will ruffle a feather or four. The above items and benefits cannot be provided at the start of the Kaggath, as they are modifications and straight up upgrades to other things. They will likely take a good deal of time to manufacture and deliver. The delivery will also be incredibly difficult as the CIS navy fled the planet, as per their tactics. You can funnel money as fast as you want into acquiring these objects, but travel time and blockade running can't be bought off.

 

Secondly, I call shenanigans on half of Urai's rumored abilities. Cutting into vehicles and single-handedly shredding infantry? Yeah, those are game mechanics, not actual events. Even then there is no references to him being comparable to a force user of Ventress, Dooku or anyone similar.

 

I, obviously, agree. You can buy this stuff, sure, but money doesn't move things along any faster than they can possibly go.

 

And Urai is pretty much a game mechanics character. There is no evidence that his blades can carve straight through vehicles. Now if he took tanks out King Bradley style, then that's acceptable, but I don't accept anything more. I also doubt he can take a head shot and survive.

 

Regarding Urai infiltrating the Fist's base, I find that unlikely. Do remember that he is Force-sensitive. Thus it is incredibly likely that any of the Force-sensitives in the base could sense him.

[Canino]

I haven't been able to post as I've been on the road (actually on the highway). And even still, I won't be able to be post until Tuesday, or sporadically at best. So if someone could cover for me (or everyone doesn't post ) that would be wonderful.

[Beniboybling]

Sorry I've been so busy lately. School's been rough the past couple of weeks so I've been putting most of my time into that (as should be expected, right? ). However, I'm hoping to start having more time in the next couple of weeks. In the meantime, I have this post I wrote up a while ago that I shared with Sel, so I'm going to go ahead and post it.

 

So in the event that the Fist can’t get the Colicoids to defect, it will include them in Plan B.

 

It was revealed in Dark Rendezvous that the Trade Federation and the Separatists engaged in mass droid hacking across the Republic. With the aid of Sith Intelligence, the Fist will be able to recreate a similar virus to send to Confederate troops.

 

First is the Nest’s role in all of this. Imperial agents will infiltrate the Colicoid factories and plant a virus on the production lines (similar to what the Republic did during the Clone Wars), causing all future models to behave erratically, turning them against the CIC. This will take some time to be fixed, but by then it will be too late.

 

Next is the Trade Federation’s role. They will use their signal transmissions to transmit their own virus to CIC troops, turning them against the Confederacy as well. We know that this is possible because it was done during the Clone Wars. The Trade Federation will know how to tailor the virus specifically for the CICs troops, and use their transmission technology to spread the virus.

 

With these viruses put into place, the Fist can neutralize and convert the Confederacy’s military. This will make for a quick victory for the Fist of the Empire. If you doubt that this can be done, allow me to alleviate you of these doubts.

 

The Trade Federation hacked Republic droids during the Clone Wars, likewise, the Republic hacked Separatist droids during the Clone Wars. The Trade Federation helped develop all of the CICs infantry units. This shows that the Trade Federation has the ability to hack into the CICs droids. The Sith Empire developed and employed viruses on worlds such as Balmorra and Hutta. This shows that Imperial Intelligence has the ability to employ cybernetic warfare.

 

Basically, the Trade Federation has the ability to do this, Sith Intelligence has the ability to do this, and they have the ability to deploy it. Against an all droid army, there is no reason for them not to do this.

 

There's my plan B, Sel. You know you love it.

Hey you stole my plan!

[Aurbere]

Hey you stole my plan!

 

I guess great minds think alike.

[Beniboybling]

I haven't been able to post as I've been on the road (actually on the highway).

[tausra]

There is also an argument to be made for Guri's biggest weapon is shut down, namely the element of surprise. All it takes is a bio-scanner to spot her droid nature. Now that Kilran has seen her in action, the information would be shared with Dooku and the Fist.

[Aurbere]

There is also an argument to be made for Guri's biggest weapon is shut down, namely the element of surprise. All it takes is a bio-scanner to spot her droid nature. Now that Kilran has seen her in action, the information would be shared with Dooku and the Fist.

 

I already mentioned how Force users would be able to pick her up, but I forgot about bio-scanners. Good catch there.

[karadron]

There is also an argument to be made for Guri's biggest weapon is shut down, namely the element of surprise. All it takes is a bio-scanner to spot her droid nature. Now that Kilran has seen her in action, the information would be shared with Dooku and the Fist.

 

Actually I don't think a bioscanner would work on Guri. The whole point of the model was to fool people and instruments into thinking that they were human.

[Beniboybling]

Alright, to kick start this debate I offer you a wall of text. Behold! Basically a comprehensive analysis of ground conflict. I encourage folks to put forward counter arguments and/or extrapolate on my points.

 

Sith Troopers are an extremely effective fighting force, they have the advanced training of a Clone Trooper, but with all the advantages of independent thought, and a wealth of combat experience. It is unlikely they'll be much phase by Tatooine's harsh environment, and will quickly adapt to the enemies tactics and capabilities. And when backed up by Sith Warriors their abilities and most importantly their resolve will be amplified tremendously, such was their effect.

 

The Confederacy's droid forces on the other hand are less numerous, but they make up for that through exceptional skill. Each unit can be classed as an effective infantry killer, C-B3s are made from cortosis and are as such practically impervious to blaster fire, they also have high-intensity, rapid fire laser cannons attached to each wrist. Commando Droids are capable of dicing up clone squads with ease, thanks to their incredibly agility and durable frames. And Mark II Droidekas are mobile weapons platforms, again impervious to blaster fire thanks to their deflector shields.

 

My thoughts in this respect that in a straight up fight the Fist's infantry is an a disadvantage, each droid unit they are up against can slaughter scores of troopers individually, while they have really very little means of effectively striking back, as there weapons are practically nullified by shields, armoring and agility, only heavy weaponry will have effect.

 

Moving on in that respect to vehicles, the AT-STs are unfortunately at a disadvantage, they are not well suited to the terrain and can be easily picked off by their long range cousin, the AT-AP, of which there are a roughly equal number. However the Hailfire's pack far more of a punch, capable of wiping out entire platoons its missiles are, if well-placed, capable of destroying an AT-TE outright, and can even be configured to wield ion cannons.

 

This puts them in good stead for dealing with the droids, direct hits from one of these missiles should be enough to take out C-B3s and Droidekas, and will be difficult to evade for Commando Droids. However being caught in the blast radius is unlikely to prove fatal, and the missiles are designed for long range, if they manage to get in close the droids become restricted to laser cannons, which even in ion cannon form will likely have negligible impact.

 

And as a side note, Annihilators, while deadly, are very few in number. I have no doubt they could obliterate any group of attackers with ease, but they would have to be used conservatively to avoid being isolated or outflanked. For that reason I doubt they will have much impact on the larger ground battle, instead used for specialist missions.

 

My overall thoughts are that if the Confederacy manages to pull off a successful close range ambush, or isolate their opponents, they have the advantage. However if forced into an open engagement the Fist can squeeze a victory. However I feel the latter is unlikely, and that the Fist will not attempt to win through ground victory unless it wishes to suffer heavy casualties, and leave itself exposed, much better to employ a more subtle hand. Enter Count Dooku.

Edited August 25, 2014 by Beniboybling

[Aurbere]

Alright, to kick start this debate I offer you a wall of text. Behold! Basically a comprehensive analysis of ground conflict. I encourage folks to put forward counter arguments and/or extrapolate on my points.

 

Good points, Beni, good points. I've felt the same way about the ground battle, but I think you overestimate the CICs troops a bit too much.

 

The Confederacy's droid forces on the other hand are less numerous, but they make up for that through exceptional skill. Each unit can be classed as an effective infantry killer, C-B3s are made from cortosis and are as such practically impervious to blaster fire, they also have high-intensity, rapid fire laser cannons attached to each wrist. Commando Droids are capable of dicing up clone squads with ease, thanks to their incredibly agility and durable frames. And Mark II Droidekas are mobile weapons platforms, again impervious to blaster fire thanks to their deflector shields.

 

I'm going to sound like a broken record, but the Fist has the advantage of knowing what they are up against. Knowledge of this type has always been a major advantage in warfare. It is even more advantageous because the Fist has an elite tactician on its side, where the CIC has none. But to actually address the CICs troops.

 

The C-B3 is basically a more durable super battle droid. I wouldn't say that it possessed more firepower than your standard SBD, but it was much more durable. However, as I have pointed out before, Dooku is aware of the weakness that the C-B3 has. Once this information is relayed to the Sith Warriors, the C-B3s have little going for them. When Anakin figured it out, he cut through them fairly easily. I haven't played the game they appear in for a very long time so someone can correct me if I am wrong. However, if that's the case, the Sith Warriors should have similar success, albeit with a few casualties.

 

Commando Droids, from what I remember, had the greatest success in melee range and sniper range. They don't appear to be exceptional in standard combat outside of those ranges. I'd say the veteran soldiers of the Sith Empire are not so outclassed by those droids.

 

Droidekas are low in number and they have a very interesting weakness noted on Wookieepedia. Apparently when put on its side, it was unable to distinguish the walls and floors from blaster bolts and lightsabers, resulting in a shield overload which left it vulnerable to damage. The Mark II, as far as I'm aware, did not deal with this weakness. How can you tell, really? It's from a game.

 

Anyway, a simple Force Push puts it on the side for easy destruction. That's something we shouldn't forget. The Fist has several Force users on the battlefield. The CIC's units have no defense against Force-based attacks.

 

Moving on in that respect to vehicles, the AT-STs are unfortunately at a disadvantage, they are not well suited to the terrain and can be easily picked off by their long range cousin, the AT-AP, of which there are a roughly equal number. However the Hailfire's pack far more of a punch, capable of wiping out entire platoons its missiles are, if well-placed, capable of destroying an AT-TE outright, and can even be configured to wield ion cannons.

 

This puts them in good stead for dealing with the droids, direct hits from one of these missiles should be enough to take out C-B3s and Droidekas, and will be difficult to evade for Commando Droids. However being caught in the blast radius is unlikely to prove fatal, and the missiles are designed for long range, if they manage to get in close the droids become restricted to laser cannons, which even in ion cannon form will likely have negligible impact.

 

The Hailfires were capable of some short range fire. Not close range, but they could fire at short range.

 

And as a side note, Annihilators, while deadly, are very few in number. I have no doubt they could obliterate any group of attackers with ease, but they would have to be used conservatively to avoid being isolated or outflanked. For that reason I doubt they will have much impact on the larger ground battle, instead used for specialist missions.

 

I'd say a pair of Annihilators would join the main strike force if the Fist goes on the warpath, while the other two are used elsewhere. One will guard the base and the other (let's call him Jerry ) will be used for a super secret mission.

 

My overall thoughts are that if the Confederacy manages to pull off a successful close range ambush, or isolate their opponents, they have the advantage. However if forced into an open engagement the Fist can squeeze a victory. However I feel the latter is unlikely, and that the Fist will not attempt to win through ground victory unless it wishes to suffer heavy casualties, and leave itself exposed, much better to employ a more subtle hand. Enter Count Dooku.

 

I feel that the Fist would win an open engagement, albeit with heavy casualties. However, the Fist's game plan is not outright victory. As Dooku said, war is deception. We lead the enemy in another direction so that we can gain victory. The CIC will expect the Fist to fight open warfare, and so the Fist will.

 

But that's a deception. The true goal is to kill Xizor. To do that, the ground battle will be used as a deception to allow for that objective to be accomplished. Xizor's pirates will attempt to make use of the underground road between Jabba's Palace and Mos Eisley. Intelligence will pick this up, and the Fist will make use of the tunnel for their own purposes. A strike force of Sith Warriors and Sith Troopers led by Asajj Ventress will traverse the tunnel, with Intelligence locating and disabling any traps that may be found.

 

While the Fist's forces distract the majority of the CIC ground forces, the strike team will enter Jabba's Palace and attack Xizor. Few could stand up to the strike force the Fist is sending, Xizor is not one of them. His only option is to do as all criminals do: run and hide. But there's only so much room on Tatooine to hide. He will be found, cornered, and then killed.

 

Of course the ground battle could be pointless if the Fist's cyber war is successful, which is highly likely.

[Beniboybling]

Good points, Beni, good points. I've felt the same way about the ground battle, but I think you overestimate the CICs troops a bit too much.

 

 

 

I'm going to sound like a broken record, but the Fist has the advantage of knowing what they are up against. Knowledge of this type has always been a major advantage in warfare. It is even more advantageous because the Fist has an elite tactician on its side, where the CIC has none. But to actually address the CICs troops.

 

The C-B3 is basically a more durable super battle droid. I wouldn't say that it possessed more firepower than your standard SBD, but it was much more durable. However, as I have pointed out before, Dooku is aware of the weakness that the C-B3 has. Once this information is relayed to the Sith Warriors, the C-B3s have little going for them. When Anakin figured it out, he cut through them fairly easily. I haven't played the game they appear in for a very long time so someone can correct me if I am wrong. However, if that's the case, the Sith Warriors should have similar success, albeit with a few casualties.

 

Commando Droids, from what I remember, had the greatest success in melee range and sniper range. They don't appear to be exceptional in standard combat outside of those ranges. I'd say the veteran soldiers of the Sith Empire are not so outclassed by those droids.

 

Droidekas are low in number and they have a very interesting weakness noted on Wookieepedia. Apparently when put on its side, it was unable to distinguish the walls and floors from blaster bolts and lightsabers, resulting in a shield overload which left it vulnerable to damage. The Mark II, as far as I'm aware, did not deal with this weakness. How can you tell, really? It's from a game.

 

Anyway, a simple Force Push puts it on the side for easy destruction. That's something we shouldn't forget. The Fist has several Force users on the battlefield. The CIC's units have no defense against Force-based attacks.

 

 

 

The Hailfires were capable of some short range fire. Not close range, but they could fire at short range.

 

 

 

I'd say a pair of Annihilators would join the main strike force if the Fist goes on the warpath, while the other two are used elsewhere. One will guard the base and the other (let's call him Jerry ) will be used for a super secret mission.

 

 

 

I feel that the Fist would win an open engagement, albeit with heavy casualties. However, the Fist's game plan is not outright victory. As Dooku said, war is deception. We lead the enemy in another direction so that we can gain victory. The CIC will expect the Fist to fight open warfare, and so the Fist will.

 

But that's a deception. The true goal is to kill Xizor. To do that, the ground battle will be used as a deception to allow for that objective to be accomplished. Xizor's pirates will attempt to make use of the underground road between Jabba's Palace and Mos Eisley. Intelligence will pick this up, and the Fist will make use of the tunnel for their own purposes. A strike force of Sith Warriors and Sith Troopers led by Asajj Ventress will traverse the tunnel, with Intelligence locating and disabling any traps that may be found.

 

While the Fist's forces distract the majority of the CIC ground forces, the strike team will enter Jabba's Palace and attack Xizor. Few could stand up to the strike force the Fist is sending, Xizor is not one of them. His only option is to do as all criminals do: run and hide. But there's only so much room on Tatooine to hide. He will be found, cornered, and then killed.

 

Of course the ground battle could be pointless if the Fist's cyber war is successful, which is highly likely.

1. Knowledge is not always an advantage, if there are no weaknesses to exploit all it does it lower morale. You can just imagine the effect reeling of their capabilities to the troops would have.

 

2. It has two mounted weapons as opposed to one, which can swivel in any direction and do appear larger. So I'd say at least double the firepower, rate of fire and twice the flexibility, which is a substantial improvement.

 

3. Anakin Skywalker is grossly superior to any of the Fist's Sith Warriors, that goes without saying. I'm not saying this advantage is negligible, but it its not perfect. I several Sith Warriors will fail, if they even succeed in getting in range. And remember there are only 50 of them, they are outnumbered 10 to 1 and can't afford to all be on the battlefield.

 

4. I'd agree on commando droids, but if they have the environment advantage they pwn. But good points.

 

5. I assume being put on its side, would involve being pushed over. Well good luck with that.

 

6. Missiles though? I would think that would prove dangerous (if possible) to itself and friendly forces.

 

7. An interesting strategy, but negated somewhat if the Confederacy avoids a primary offensive.

 

8. Said tunnel could be collapsed. Potentially burying the strike force in rubble. And even then a small strike force of C-B3s, Commando Droids and Droidekas, led by Durge and/or Guri/Urai Fen could deal with such a force. I feel such a plan would have to be well thought out, and would require a the majority of Xizor's forces to be diverted from the palace.

 

Don't overestimate the effects of a cyber war, remember that will only effect reinforcements. A luxury the Fist does not even have. Whereas those troops already on the ground will be far more difficult it not impossible to infect.