Pistols Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Go back to training your shadow. Every sentence you typed is wrong. I lol'd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vodrin Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 As ridiculous as bolster is, it is better than recruit simply by virtue of keeping up with the aforesaid gear inflation. In fact, it's too good at what it does. All bolster of non-expertise gear should be the same, full stop, and all non-expertise gear should bolster to a set, small percentage (like 2%) inferior to the existing elementary tier of PVP gear (presently, conqueror). I agree with this except I see no reason not to have bolster bring gear up to the stat level of T1 PvP gear. Conq geared PvPers still get the benefit of min/maxing and a set bonus, while everyone is competitive in warzones. Leaving bolster below conq just creates a bit too much of an advantage for Obroan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamesux Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Anything before f2p is good. Once this game announced it'd be going f2p before its 1 yr anniversary hit the nail on the coffin in its failure to make something successful of itself in the mmo community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groncho Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Anything before f2p is good. Once this game announced it'd be going f2p before its 1 yr anniversary hit the nail on the coffin in its failure to make something successful of itself in the mmo community. Andryah would agree with ya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glower Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 So for giggles, here are some stats on a merc (ie. someone who really shouldn't be using them) with Obroan vs Obroan with 45s in MH/OH. And new PvP gear in 2.7 or 2.8! Farm these useless gear again, why not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamesux Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 (edited) Andryah would agree with ya Her and her latina as* would Edited February 19, 2014 by Gamesux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pippiprinz Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 (edited) only can say this: http://www.bildupload.com/index.php?image=21491cd7d6266276df0db7955df62e38 Edited February 19, 2014 by Pippiprinz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sithBracer Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 (edited) Go back to training your shadow. Every sentence you typed is wrong. The tears of garbage players feed my lightsaber. Edited February 19, 2014 by sithBracer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkiestj Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I just want to say thanks to RANDLE for staying on topic and posting detailed information that advances the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthOvertone Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 So what we’re seeing is that, yes, if you’re willing to sacrifice other stats for damage output, these mods can be optimal for your play style. This is not our final design implementation and we are going to continue looking at the balance between default Obroan and bolster. However, we are currently okay with where it is, even being a bit less than the target. The problem isn't the statistical proximity of lowbie gear to min/maxed Obroan (T1 PvP gear). I don't think there's a real PvPer in this game that doesn't mind having a more balanced competitive playing field and easier access to PvP. The problem is the ease of acquisition for one over the other. The grind for min/maxed T1 PvP Gear is significant and the most difficult in the game...period. To say that this grind can be largely trumped simply by acquiring mods that aren't even on level with the content being consumed is stupid beyond measure. It's even worse to allude that this is working as intended and not even an exploit of the system. haha Look. I appreciate your efforts Tait. I also appreciate all that Rob, Alex and Austin have done on the Dev team (sorry, but those are the only 3 BW staffers I know that actually work on PvP). But the system is a mess and just not working at level 55, and this isn't a one time thing. As we saw when the new Obroan gear was added, changing the Bolster algorithm has unforeseen consequences, and this type of gear variance will happen every time you add new gear or make a tweak to the system. There will always be a Bolster chase. This isn't an issue that can be simply nipped in the bud as bugs are found. It's a design flaw of the system itself. Do yourselves a favor. Ease the grind for min/maxed Obroan or remove PvP gear altogether. In the least, remove Bolster from Ranked PvP. Go ahead and keep it in Regz if you want. Make the grind for PvP gear mean something until you truly figure things out. 2. This is where the crystal issue I mentioned comes into play. Bolster should be taking into consideration the crystal in the weapon when it adds stats, but it currently isn't and thus the MH/OH are bolstering improperly. This is why you see the bonus damage over Obroan. This is a perfect example of my main point above. Crystals were also a major problem in the original iteration of Bolster and remained so for many months. Now, lo and behold, they are a problem again. Not surprised...at all. What annoys me is that we spend so much time grinding out the "best" weapons (obroan) and they aren't even as good as weapons you can make yourself at the minimal cost of a few planetary comms and a few credits. I am sorry, but a free buff should NEVER be on par with the top tier of gear. Yes. The grind for min/maxed Obroan needs to be alleviated regardless of Bolster. As it stands, due to the near complete failure of Ranked Arenas, the grind for T1 PvP Gear is the most difficult grind in the game in terms of overall actual playtime and effort. Something needs to be done on that front. And it is stupid that those stats can be easily approximated by using low level gear that has no business being in endgame content. It truly is ridiculous. PvP gear should not exist in the game. Get rid of it and focus less on stats and more on skills. This is the real solution, and something that has puzzled the community since the beginning. The addition of Expertise was unnecessary and is a complete farce at this point. I'm for eliminating PvP gear altogether. People can already wear the shells they want. Just let players grind the same armor/mods/enhancements they desire, with the stats they want whether that player prefers PvE or PvP. Just set the prices on the items to make the grinds equivalent depending on which road to gearing the player chooses. It will make life so much simpler and easier for the Devs and give them the opportunity to focus on PvP combat and class balancing issues that really matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sithBracer Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 This is the real solution, and something that has puzzled the community since the beginning. The addition of Expertise was unnecessary and is a complete farce at this point. I'm for eliminating PvP gear altogether. People can already wear the shells they want. Just let players grind the same armor/mods/enhancements they desire, with the stats they want whether that player prefers PvE or PvP. Just set the prices on the items to make the grinds equivalent depending on which road to gearing the player chooses. If there is no expertise, then PvPers who are not hard core raiders will be crushed by PvEers who do HM/NiM content. At the same time, if they allowed that gear to be achieved just by PvPing, people would not bother going in week after week into HM/NiM raids, wiping over and over when they can just AFK inside a wz to get the comms for that gear. That was the original reason why PvP stats were added, to protect PvE from people who wanted to cheat the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurvv Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 (edited) The tears of garbage players feed my lightsaber. Yes I know quality is terrible. Edited February 19, 2014 by Kurvv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orenprax Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 However, we are currently okay with where it is, even being a bit less than the target. And we all thought we've seen the last of yellow-post inspired memes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanNV Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 If there is no expertise, then PvPers who are not hard core raiders will be crushed by PvEers who do HM/NiM content. At the same time, if they allowed that gear to be achieved just by PvPing, people would not bother going in week after week into HM/NiM raids, wiping over and over when they can just AFK inside a wz to get the comms for that gear. That was the original reason why PvP stats were added, to protect PvE from people who wanted to cheat the system. I've posted more than once how to fix that both OW and WZ. It isn't complicated. IT's even in this thread a few pages back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOULCASTER Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Man, SWG doesn't look too bad now. SWG for life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthOvertone Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 If there is no expertise, then PvPers who are not hard core raiders will be crushed by PvEers who do HM/NiM content. Not if they can acquire the same mods through PvP. At the same time, if they allowed that gear to be achieved just by PvPing, people would not bother going in week after week into HM/NiM raids, wiping over and over when they can just AFK inside a wz to get the comms for that gear. Depends on how hard the PvP grind for the same mods is. If the grind is easier, then yes, carebears may possibly just stand around afk in WZs. However, if the grind is equivalent, I don't think it would be that widespread a problem. Just look at Lowbies as an example. People have had the option to earn, not only WZ comms, but free leveling XP by participating in WZs while leveling. Yet, you rarely, if ever, see players afking in Lowbies. I'm willing to bet the same thing would happen at endgame as well. That was the original reason why PvP stats were added, to protect PvE from people who wanted to cheat the system. Perhaps it's time to abandon that system in SWTOR. However, I disagree that cheating would be rampant if either pathways (PvE or PvP) to gear were equivalent in time and effort spent. Players like freedom. Players like options. Let them choose how to get their endgame gear. Who cares if they PvE or PvP to do it? At the same time, that is just the tip of the iceberg. Once the system is in place, you can guarantee players will still do the content by incentivizing it with unique rewards in each content type, special for that specific content. Unique PvE titles and items that can only be obtained in NiM Raids, and the same with PvP. That's the way to change the system. Instead, BW dedicates countless hours to creating and implementing a broken Bolster system that creates a brand new headache with each iteration. Even if we solve the current problem with Bolster, the whole process will start all over again when a new tier of gear is introduced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sithBracer Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 I've posted more than once how to fix that both OW and WZ. It isn't complicated. IT's even in this thread a few pages back. Are you referring to the "raid stat" for ops and fps? It sounds like a reasonable solution to me, but it also sounds like it would take a lot of work on the developer's side. Then there is the corporate politics that need to be dealt with. They would need to explain to the board of directors why all the money they invested in making the bolster is going to be wasted, explain to them why they need more time and money to undo the current bolster that they spent so much time and money creating, and explain why they need even more time and money to create the system you like. Heres how it will go: dev: hello mr. chairman, I realize we spent months of development and hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of dollars inventing the bolster system so that more players can have an easier transition into PvP, but we need to undo all of that and create a new system. I believe the project will take a minimum of 4 months to develop and test, and a minimum of 4 developers, 3 product guys, 2 QA, 5 marketing people to explain the situation to all the players and we will have to invest some money into another server to test out the changes. chairman: ok, but why? Is the bolster stopping people from joining PvP? dev: no sir, in fact we have more people PvPing now than pre-bolster. chairman: well, is it breaking our servers in some way? dev: no sir. It has no impact on our servers. chairmain: well then, what is the reason? dev: well, there are a couple of bugs that some people on the forums complain about. for example a certain combination of PvE mods are a bit better than the obroan set. chairman: ... are you high? dev: no sir. chairman: are you sure? dev: yes sir. chairman: then the answer is no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eartharioch Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 Are you referring to the "raid stat" for ops and fps? It sounds like a reasonable solution to me, but it also sounds like it would take a lot of work on the developer's side. I've been advocating a Raid stat (tbh, FPs don't need it, since max FP requirements are well below current OP requirements and Elite Com gear). Since the current system basically works, I'd leave it for now, and not try to patch in a whole new system. But, when making the next level-increase expansion (and corresponding new tiers), I'd switch over then. So, basically, let the current lvl 55 (78P) gear tiers (plus upcoming NM if necessary) run out, and then with 3.0 or whatver brings us the next level upgrade (lvl 60?), balance that out so everybody PVE/PVP works towards the same max Open World (including WZs and FPs) gear, which should be near the next new Operations SM (HM?) tiers. At this time (2.x, lvl 55 cap), I agree that redoing the system would be more work than the reward justifies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jherad Posted February 19, 2014 Share Posted February 19, 2014 (edited) dev: hello mr. chairman, I realize we spent months of development and hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of dollars inventing the bolster system so that more players can have an easier transition into PvP, but we need to undo all of that and create a new system. EL Oh El at hundreds of thousands of dollars developing bolster. It has all the hallmarks of a single codemonkey's weekend pet project. Proposed solutions (like THIS one) would be simple, relatively speaking, to implement and save a WHOLE heap of development time down the road. Edited February 19, 2014 by Jherad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eartharioch Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 If there is no expertise, then PvPers who are not hard core raiders will be crushed by PvEers who do HM/NiM content. At the same time, if they allowed that gear to be achieved just by PvPing, people would not bother going in week after week into HM/NiM raids, wiping over and over when they can just AFK inside a wz to get the comms for that gear. That was the original reason why PvP stats were added, to protect PvE from people who wanted to cheat the system. Correct; that is why I advocate (a) removing Expertise and (b) capping Open World (Leveling, WZs, FP, Events, etc.) at a certain level (say 72P -- current Elite Comm -- as an example) and then adding special Operations/Raid stats that only work in operations. This would replace the "downgrading" part of Bolster; the "upgrading" part of Bolster, setting a minimum floor, should remain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raansu Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 If a BIS obroan player can clear DP / DF HM without any hassle, why shoudn't we be able to get our relics with blue 46 gear in pvp? BW sees the picture, so I thank them for this method. I can go with my sage now and get me some relics because my alts, having pvp gear, cannot transfer these via legacy. So i hop on my 46 blues and get what I need why should I farm with my alts gear for my sage just to do a few wz for relics? No sir! 46 blues is the solution for my sage and gunslinger! HAPPY DAYS!!! Dear BW, make pvp relics only proc on players, thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EzioMessi Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 If a BIS obroan player can clear DP / DF HM without any hassle, why shoudn't we be able to get our relics with blue 46 gear in pvp? BW sees the picture, so I thank them for this method. I can go with my sage now and get me some relics because my alts, having pvp gear, cannot transfer these via legacy. So i hop on my 46 blues and get what I need why should I farm with my alts gear for my sage just to do a few wz for relics? No sir! 46 blues is the solution for my sage and gunslinger! HAPPY DAYS!!! That player grinded for a full week for every piece in his set. Why should he be allowed to be viable in PvE content? I want the ability to use gear that I can buy for 10k credits so I can PvP in it!! If that sounds ridiculous, that's exactly what your post is saying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locksley Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 (edited) it is a wonder why conq gear cant be bought from level 40, because by 47 your capped on all wz and ranked anyway your just building up medpacks at this point. Sure some people dont pvp a lot but then they should stop whining like big girls if they get smashed because they cant be bothered to get the right gear, not like high end raid leaders will take guys with 2018 exp in their gear because they wont burn the mobs quick enough yet noobs rocking less than 2018 cant grasp its the same in pvp. In fact I was in a 16m raid group and a sent had 22k hps and was booted for it yet these guys that are ignorant wont gear properly for pvp. Or why not just bolster pvp gear at 55? that way we all have to wear pvp gear in pvp and pve gear for pve.. a odd notion i agree but hey... or set a exp level to enter 55 pvp which can be reached via having conq gear...... Edited February 20, 2014 by Locksley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opaknack Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 ... we tested with a Lethality Sniper ... try it with a healer and the result will be the contrary * this f****** bolster s u c k s * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leafy_Bug Posted February 20, 2014 Share Posted February 20, 2014 That player grinded for a full week for every piece in his set. Why should he be allowed to be viable in PvE content? I want the ability to use gear that I can buy for 10k credits so I can PvP in it!! If that sounds ridiculous, that's exactly what your post is saying... BRB, i have a mount to get with 46 blues!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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