Bolstered Mods vs. Obroan

[Vodrin]

So, the gear you need to grind out, save up for, win and loose over and over for are not BIS for its purpose; and that's not a high priority?

 

Not really, because it is not significantly inferior to any bolstered gear for the majority of classes and situations. Just be glad the dev's are aware of the problem and looking into a fix.

[Brunner_Venda]

Hi Everyone,

 

Over the past few weeks, we have been looking into your reports of lower level mods giving higher stats with bolster than Obroan gear. To test this, we checked the relative power of multiple gear sets against each other, which provides us with our “power differential” between players. We are currently shooting for about a 7% gap between bolstering and default Obroan mods, if you assume the same level of augments.

 

That said, we tested with a Lethality Sniper and found that there is about a 5% differential between Obroan and the bolstered lower level blue mods. This is with default Obroan mods, so there is some customization potential in the PvP gear that would further improve the gap. Both gear sets included Augments and a Power Crystal. Your results may vary depending on your class and specialization.

 

Bolster tends to favor pure power as a stat, so the lower blue mods WILL show higher bonus damage values vs default Obroan, which, in turn, grants slightly higher base damages on abilities at the sacrifice of other ratings and endurance. For example, with default Obroan, the Explosive Probe tooltip states it maxes at 3876 damage, while with the blue mods and bolster it tops out at 3915. However, Obroan has better alacrity (+0.06%), crit (+6.22%), and health (+343). In the end (and in a perfect rotation environment), the player wearing Obroan will win a duel.

 

So what we’re seeing is that, yes, if you’re willing to sacrifice other stats for damage output, these mods can be optimal for your play style. This is not our final design implementation and we are going to continue looking at the balance between default Obroan and bolster. However, we are currently okay with where it is, even being a bit less than the target. Do note that we are aware of an issue regarding Main Hand and Off-Hand gear when it comes to Expertise crystals vs. stat crystals, and are working on a solution. I don’t currently have an ETA for you, but will update you as I know more.

 

-tw

 

I can't believe you devs are this dense. We're talking epic dense.

 

1. You forgot about conqueror gear. Why are you bolstering people up higher than a complete set of tier one PVP gear? Your baseline should be 5% below that, and this includes people sneaking in PVE barrels in their weapons or earpieces/implants with higher stats.

 

2. Of course someone is going to stack power and surge in their PVE bolstered gear. It takes almost no time or investment to do so. Meanwhile the Obroan guy gets to grind through 50+ warzones just to get ONE enhancement, because the cost is ridiculous. The default stats on most PVP pieces are horrible, the cost to replace them is insulting, and the fact that PVE gear bolsters higher for healing, bonus damage, and weapon damage is a sick sad joke.

 

The fact that you guys are remotely 'okay' with the current state leads me to believe that you really are as terrible at your jobs as everyone says you are .

 

- an angry customer

[L-RANDLE]

I will certainly read it, but I can't promise a response - at least not right away. What I can promise to do is pass along your exact mods/equipment to the combat team so that they can recreate your gear and look at the numbers. This can certainly help us narrow down any bugs in the mods that weren't found during these past few weeks.

 

No problem, but please understand, there is no way to get tooltip values to increase by 100-200 merely by changing +41 crystals. For weapon damage classes, the native min/max damage has more to do with it, but ill post screens and loadouts to show there is little or no trade off when using some endgame PvE pieces.

 

Thanks for listening and standby. I won't disappoint....

[Pistols]

Hi Everyone,

 

Over the past few weeks, we have been looking into your reports of lower level mods giving higher stats with bolster than Obroan gear. To test this, we checked the relative power of multiple gear sets against each other, which provides us with our “power differential” between players. We are currently shooting for about a 7% gap between bolstering and default Obroan mods, if you assume the same level of augments.

 

That said, we tested with a Lethality Sniper and found that there is about a 5% differential between Obroan and the bolstered lower level blue mods. This is with default Obroan mods, so there is some customization potential in the PvP gear that would further improve the gap. Both gear sets included Augments and a Power Crystal. Your results may vary depending on your class and specialization.

 

Bolster tends to favor pure power as a stat, so the lower blue mods WILL show higher bonus damage values vs default Obroan, which, in turn, grants slightly higher base damages on abilities at the sacrifice of other ratings and endurance. For example, with default Obroan, the Explosive Probe tooltip states it maxes at 3876 damage, while with the blue mods and bolster it tops out at 3915. However, Obroan has better alacrity (+0.06%), crit (+6.22%), and health (+343). In the end (and in a perfect rotation environment), the player wearing Obroan will win a duel.

 

So what we’re seeing is that, yes, if you’re willing to sacrifice other stats for damage output, these mods can be optimal for your play style. This is not our final design implementation and we are going to continue looking at the balance between default Obroan and bolster. However, we are currently okay with where it is, even being a bit less than the target. Do note that we are aware of an issue regarding Main Hand and Off-Hand gear when it comes to Expertise crystals vs. stat crystals, and are working on a solution. I don’t currently have an ETA for you, but will update you as I know more.

 

-tw

 

Just...LOL

[gblXsw]

That's stat sheet, in a WZ.

Mouseover on the actual weapon and look at the min/max damage between the two. They are very different.

 

This issue is that weapon damage calc on attacks happens without any bolster considerations. Most static min/max damage on PvE weapons are higher than Obroan.

 

This is why 46 isn't an exploit. The max damage on these weapons is half of what Obroan is, which means its a big nerf for almost all DPS classes..

 

Why would you trust the mouseover of the weapon over the stat sheet? The mouseover on any equipment shows inside a warzone exactly what it shows outside of a warzone, regardless wether it's a bolstered item or a not bolstered item.

[L-RANDLE]

Why would you trust the mouseover of the weapon over the stat sheet? The mouseover on any equipment shows inside a warzone exactly what it shows outside of a warzone, regardless wether it's a bolstered item or a not bolstered item.

 

Why?

Because there is no other plausible why my Ravage would increase around 200 according to the tool tip when using a 69 hilt combo, and decrease by 1500 when using the "exploit weapons", that have the same +41 power crystals.

 

 

My combat logs also shows this is more of an issue than crystals are...

[Jherad]

Can we confirm that the devs are testing full Obroan vs full Obroan apart from MH/OH with 45s, vs full Obroan apart from MH/OH with 69/63/61? Also in WZs, NOT in OW bolstered areas which apparently produce different stats.

 

Those stat differences look WAY off from what people are seeing in-game (particularly for crit - seriously, people are NOT losing 6+% crit) which leads me to suspect the devs might be testing full PvE sets - which we know doesn't work.

Edited February 18, 2014 by Jherad

[Raansu]

Hi Everyone,

 

Over the past few weeks, we have been looking into your reports of lower level mods giving higher stats with bolster than Obroan gear. To test this, we checked the relative power of multiple gear sets against each other, which provides us with our “power differential” between players. We are currently shooting for about a 7% gap between bolstering and default Obroan mods, if you assume the same level of augments.

 

That said, we tested with a Lethality Sniper and found that there is about a 5% differential between Obroan and the bolstered lower level blue mods. This is with default Obroan mods, so there is some customization potential in the PvP gear that would further improve the gap. Both gear sets included Augments and a Power Crystal. Your results may vary depending on your class and specialization.

 

Bolster tends to favor pure power as a stat, so the lower blue mods WILL show higher bonus damage values vs default Obroan, which, in turn, grants slightly higher base damages on abilities at the sacrifice of other ratings and endurance. For example, with default Obroan, the Explosive Probe tooltip states it maxes at 3876 damage, while with the blue mods and bolster it tops out at 3915. However, Obroan has better alacrity (+0.06%), crit (+6.22%), and health (+343). In the end (and in a perfect rotation environment), the player wearing Obroan will win a duel.

 

So what we’re seeing is that, yes, if you’re willing to sacrifice other stats for damage output, these mods can be optimal for your play style. This is not our final design implementation and we are going to continue looking at the balance between default Obroan and bolster. However, we are currently okay with where it is, even being a bit less than the target. Do note that we are aware of an issue regarding Main Hand and Off-Hand gear when it comes to Expertise crystals vs. stat crystals, and are working on a solution. I don’t currently have an ETA for you, but will update you as I know more.

 

-tw

 

I mean...wow...This is a very poor attempt at PR or your developers really are that incompetent. Also, lol alacrity.

[Pistols]

Sometimes I wonder, if the window gets tired of being licked.

[gblXsw]

Why?

Because there is no other plausible why my Ravage would increase around 200 according to the tool tip when using a 69 hilt combo, and decrease by 1500 when using the "exploit weapons", that have the same +41 power crystals.

 

 

My combat logs also shows this is more of an issue than crystals are...

 

For clarification: Are you saying when I'm wearing full expertise gear, force/tech power get's buffed, but the weapons damage doesn't?

I've always checked on my Sorc, where the mouseover for all abilities I looked at got higher numbers upon entering a warzone, but of course those only depend on force power, not weapon damage...

[DarthVengeant]

Stuff like this is why the PVP In this game is broken. The bolstering system is utter garbage. Just make people PVP in their normal gear and all the problems are solved. You do what your gear and skill allows, not exploits and Bolstering.

[VIncentBlaze]

I must say this is a half a**ed attempt to fix an obvious problem i still remember the day 2.0 was droped i was in a WZ full war-hero/elite war-hero gear full expertise at the time i got my *** handed to me by a level 46 assassin who was naked f***in NAKED that was a bug people quickly cached on to and exploited called the naked bolster you fixed that part but perhaps the problem is the bolster in general as the post is relating to i remember getting to level 50 getting the recruit gear and getting my face smashed in trying to gear up yea maybe that wasn't so great but its how we got gear and there wasnt as much exploits with the bolster on the other note with bolster.... the eyeless ops yea BW devs i want you to all roll level 30 toons and try that tell me how far you get before you wipe.. the problem dps wasn't there you had people never been in an ops before trying it out... nice call here big bold letters GET RID OF THE BOLSTER.. FORGET IT IT HAS DONE MORE HARM THEN GOOD SENCE 2.0 WAS DROPED You can bring back the recruit gear reduced stats same as the bolster provides perhaps then expertise isnt a total waste.

[Mursie]

Sorry Tait but you need to redo your homework - because it is factually incorrect.

 

When switching a 67/67/67 min/max power surge MH/OH obroan with lvl 46 blue mods and a +41 power crystal.. the following occurs.

 

1. You gain more health with blue 46's (2k)

2. You gain more crit

3. You gain more dmg bonus

 

You are literally lieing to the community now on every point you made. lvl 46 blues with +41 power crystal in MH/OH is better stats in ALL CATEGORIES (except white dmg) than min/max power/surge obroan.

[DanNV]

Tait,

 

First, than you for posting. It is greatly appreciated.

 

Second, let me suggest a much simpler bolster algorithm. It wont care what level gear you start with, 10 greens or fully 78 purple mods.

 

First, set a minimum for each type of mod (agile mod, etc.) and a max for each. For all modable gear, look at each mod and if it is below the minimum, bolster to minimum, if it is above maximum, cut it to the maximum. For non-modable gear, set a min and max set of stats for each slot based on the gear in question. Again, if below minimum, bolster to minimum and if above Maximum, cut to maximum. The mins and maxes for unmodable gear should be below the totals for modable gear. Now, regardless what gear is brought into PvP, it will fall within your planned range. You don't have to worry about a certain set of mods breaking the algorithm. you don't have to worry about people in really high end or really low end gear. You could even have the game just calculate a second set of hidden stats based on gear so you don't have to do it on the fly on WZ entry. (And if you keep the hidden stats, they can also be used in any open world engagement as well, since they are already there, if you wanted.) It would certainly be easier to explain and implement.

[Mursie]

That's stat sheet, in a WZ.

Mouseover on the actual weapon and look at the min/max damage between the two. They are very different.

 

This issue is that weapon damage calc on attacks happens without any bolster considerations. Most static min/max damage on PvE weapons are higher than Obroan.

 

This is why 46 isn't an exploit. The max damage on these weapons is half of what Obroan is, which means its a big nerf for almost all DPS classes..

 

please stop feeding INCORRECT info randle. seriously. stopit. it is not a nerf to most dps classes. It is a huge BUFF to dps ops.. dps sorcs.. etc. Hell even smash maras benefit from it. There are more tech/force dmg abilities flying around than white dmg. It could be seen as neutral for some that rely more on white dmg.. but for most..its a freaking BUFF.

[Aristore]

Are you ******** me? The problem is not that bolstered gear may or may not be better, it's that the *********** grind to get obroan gear is now an asinine task, considering you can get comparable gear just by taking a trip to the gtn.

 

Is this honestly the mindset of Bioware right now? Are they so oblivious to the hard work and time it takes to grind out a full set of obroan that we are accepting this response as valid? They are fine with where bolster is right now?

 

If you've ever doubted whether BW gives a **** about pvpers, you have your answer. they don't

[Mursie]

Are you ******** me? The problem is not that bolstered gear may or may not be better, it's that the *********** grind to get obroan gear is now an asinine task, considering you can get comparable gear just by taking a trip to the gtn.

 

Is this honestly the mindset of Bioware right now? Are they so oblivious to the hard work and time it takes to grind out a full set of obroan that we are accepting this response as valid? They are fine with where bolster is right now?

 

If you've ever doubted whether BW gives a **** about pvpers, you have your answer. they don't

 

It's a PVE game. You have been kidding yourself the whole time. PVP is an afterthought..to pass the time between ops

[Pistols]

Is this honestly the mindset of Bioware right now?

 

They don't know how to work Bolster in 55's, never have, never will. The coders are obviously stumped, so instead of saying "We will continue to look into it", it's much easier to say "working as intended".

 

Cause we all know this is how they wanted it...

[L-RANDLE]

please stop feeding INCORRECT info randle. seriously. stopit. it is not a nerf to most dps classes. It is a huge BUFF to dps ops.. dps sorcs.. etc. Hell even smash maras benefit from it. There are more tech/force dmg abilities flying around than white dmg. It could be seen as neutral for some that rely more on white dmg.. but for most..its a freaking BUFF.

 

ONLY Ops and Sorc. Anyone else? Nope.... I am collecting screens right now. If you didn't see my exact comparison in the previous thread, then just wait and see.

[Puissant]

ONLY Ops and Sorc. Anyone else? Nope.... I am collecting screens right now. If you didn't see my exact comparison in the previous thread, then just wait and see.

 

I'd say AP powertechs as well.

And ftr thanks tait, randle and anybody else for trying to help fix it and putting in time.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Puissant

[TooGreat]

So first of all I didnt read through all the posts so someone may have said what I am about to say, but here we go....

 

Does anyone else have a problem with bolstered low lvl gear being higher stats that Conq gear. I mean seriously, why are they comparing bolster stats to the best pvp gear. compare it to the base model that everyone needs to get anyway. I have a big problem with the fact that you can bolster up and you dont even equip until you are damn near full obroan.

 

Here is a fix...why dont you lower the max bolster expertise to like 1800 or 1850...make people earn their stripes. I am sorry if you get killed but you know what maybe that will make you a better player in the long run.

 

People want to play with bolster and get more power ect. well get it at the expense of actual expertise.

[SwiftDuck]

Wow the Devs are ruining their own game.

 

Ever since GSF came out thats all i've been doing. The ground game has been ruined.

 

Having level 30ish mods be remotely close to even tier 1 pvp gear is really an unintelligent mistake, let alone make it better.

 

Why did bust my *** to min max my obroan gear so that some lazy fool who just hit level 55 can use very low level gear AND HAVE IT BE BETTER!!?? Seriously what the hell is wrong with you.

 

 

Remove pvp gear if this is what you devs are going to do.

 

So glad other more quality MMO's are coming out soon. this is pathetic

[JediMasterSLC]

Tait, thank you for taking the time to post. Any animosity from myself and others is not directed towards you, but rather the blatantly incompetent developers that are feeding you the information, and I am sorry that your job requires that you interact with them. This information, that has been passed on to you for you to relay to us, is simply factually incorrect. There are a large number of threads citing math and screenshots to support this accusation, and there is no evidence, that I have seen, that can support the claims in your post. The entire PvP community is not wrong. Please tell your developers that they need to seriously reevaluate the way in which the test these things. If they need help in doing this, there are several well-qualified members of the community that can assist them in doing their job. Edited February 19, 2014 by JediMasterSLC

[Evolixe]

Tait, thank you for taking the time to post. Any animosity from myself and others is not directed towards you, but rather the blatantly incompetent developers that are feeding you the information, and I am sorry that your job requires that you interact with them. This information, that has been passed on to you for you to relay to us, is simply factually incorrect. There are a large number of threads citing math and screenshots to support this accusation, and there is no evidence, that I have seen, that can support the claims in your post. The entire PvP community is not wrong. Please tell your developers that they need to seriously reevaluate the way in which the test these things. If they need help in doing this, there are several well-qualified members of the community that can assist them in doing their job.

 

Lool

 

But seriously, not sure if I should cry or laugh. Because he's mostly right.

[Megatons]

Working as intended eh?

If I wanted to play a pvp game with zero progression I'd stick with GW2, but that aint my cup of tea. I like the way effort / reward was handled before bolster .(which was a huge tonedown compared to release with random bags)

 

If this is Biowares new stance on the subject that "bought" gear should just differ a few % from Obroan aka removing the so called time input / reward = character progression then im done with this ****.

 

How about you introduce this bolster mechanic to PvE as well?

CBA min/max pve stats when I just can go buy some lvl 1 grey **** and get bolstered.

Dont you want more people to do your OPS Bioware? It's great for the community.

 

Re-introduce naked bolster but for PvE this time.