This game badly needs mods and macros.

[Skeelol]

Ah but with respect, you are wrong. What is being said in this thread is essentially 'I want these tools so I can discriminate against people I feel are not contributing in the way I desire'.

 

To me, that is not only elitist but defeats the point of it being a game. It's no longer about having fun, exploring, discovering, trying new things out, but regimented into watching meters and doing the same tired thing everyone else does because one combination has been proven to work.

 

I don't have a problem with self-analysis and saying 'I could do X better', but it never stops there. Consider my request to make my stats private, which wouldn't stop self-analysis at all - immediately someone posted 'hey I can then immediately ignore them because I know they're going to fail'. Case closed.

 

My friend, you're also missing the point.

 

This is an MMO, you play with others and you depend on others to progress.

 

Feel free to do whatever you like as long as it doesn't affect others, or accept that you can't do it your way in a game in which other people depend on you.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Skeelol

[JediIorith]

You are making the invalid assumption that infinite permutations increases complexity or decreases the capability for cookie cutter. It doesn't. Whenever there are talent trees that in any way alter damage numbers, there is a best spec, and there are other specs.

 

The argument being made here is that it is better to live in naivety than to understand the choices you make; its kind of like shutting down scientific endeavor because it endangers the sanctity of religion.

 

Bad analogy, although it shows that you take video games way to seriously.

 

It's like telling someone they can read a book, but criticize them if they don't read it sitting at a desk, instead of laying in bed. One might be better for you, but they are both doable.

[AlpsStranger]

I'm guess you mean "faster" more than "better"? These aren't the same thing.

 

I'd rather play with someone who can break their rotation if it means helping the group survive an encounter than someone who cares so much about having high dps that they don't realize they even have other abilities. After recount was intro'd, I found more people to be the second option rather than the first.

 

I'm going to start playing the "false dichotomy drinking game" in these threads. It'll be your fault when I'm dead!

Edited December 23, 2011 by AlpsStranger

[Bobbeh_Cgly]

So what you are saying is. You want to have it easy with YOUR playstyle and everyone else should be bored and have less fun, because elsewise you couldnt compete with those people that actually invest time in being better ? I might shock you with this, but they deserve to be better. There are always two approaches for beeing "good" in a mmo. One, you invest time, either for experience or research (i prefere research over meaningless whiping). Two, good eye-hand-coordination and overall reflexes. If you utilize both you can consider yourself "good" and you will be rewarded with ingame success. If you utilize neither, i dont see a reason why you should get anything. A game isnt only about having fun, but about having a competition, if everything is handed to you, it will get boring. Try cheating in a good game. It will be boring as hell because it is too easy, and you will sooner or later stop playing.

 

If you dont like it, play with people that think like you do. Using your example. Its more like complaining that you classic muscle car doesnt stand a chance in the formula 1, so everyother car should be tuned down to you level, instead of you doing races against other classics.

 

PvP is an other topic. But I doubt, that the mentioned changes will put you at a big disadvantage. Having a cleaner ui, different arranged actionbar or a combatlog wont affect you in any way in pvp. Only macros could be a problem, and this only if if the game is simple enough and allows building a prioritylist with macros. If you complain about people that bind alike spells in one macro, and use them according to the pressed modifier(alt, shift etc.) you must be joking. If you dont like targettarget, assist, self etc. You must have sleeped through the last generation of MMOs.

 

 

 

 

 

I wholeheartly agree with this.

 

 

First off your example is flawed, it would imply that addons are already in the game and we are asking them to be taken out. When the truth is they arent and people are asking them to be put in, so its not dumbing down the game, its supercharging it for some.

 

Secondly you didnt even read my post about pvp and macros obviously because i gave a clear example of an mmo (which is crazy popular in korea and the asian market) and how not using macro's basically meant you couldnt pvp at all.

 

Third I agree about key binds they are essential in pvp just like mouse turning, but thats simple tactics that anyone can do and learn with little to no effort.

 

Fourthly, frankly im doing just fine in ToR, as i play a tank and in all rights a pretty darn good one, personally havent cause a group wipe in a flashpoint yet. I can understand why some would see the desire for dps tracking as a need. Now im not against local addons that let players make themselves better, or improve their game play i said that a while ago. Im against Global addons that allow others to discriminate against players because of their refusal to use them or their stats, or info on them

 

Fifthly i dont want the game to be easy i want end game flashpoints and ops to be next to impossible, but i also don't want mods that will walk you through them to ever exist, they should be learned, there should be failure, and there should be natural talent and problemsolving.

[JediIorith]

My friend, you're also missing the point.

 

This is an MMO, you play with others and you depend on others to progress.

 

Feel free to do whatever you like as long as it doesn't affect others, or accept that you can't do it your way in a game in which other people depend on you.

 

I think you're missing the point of video games as a whole. They are meant to be entertaining. Fun. Not a way for someone to feel superior to others because they googled a talent spec online.

[Skeelol]

Bobbeh combat log has already been confirmed. Which means addons like skada/recount will also come.

 

Your fight is pointless.

[Chomag]

Bobbeh combat log has already been confirmed. Which means addons like skada/recount will also come.

 

Your fight is pointless.

 

You'll never take me alive!!!

[Bobbeh_Cgly]

Bobbeh combat log has already been confirmed. Which means addons like skada/recount will also come.

 

Your fight is pointless.

 

Personal combat logs have been confirmed, nothing more.

 

and a personal combat log will only allow you to have a local dps meter not a global one. and therefore my argument still stands sound

[Skeelol]

I think you're missing the point of video games as a whole. They are meant to be entertaining. Fun. Not a way for someone to feel superior to others because they googled a talent spec online.

 

That's interesting because the spec to have is so obvious it isn't even funny. You don't have to google anything.

 

It's about how you play your class and how you decide to gear up, which stats to pick. I bet half of the people who are against addons don't even know what skills to use right now to have decent dps.

Personal combat logs have been confirmed, nothing more.

 

and a personal combat log will only allow you to have a local dps meter not a global one. and therefore my argument still stands sound

 

There is no such thing as a local dps meter. When combat log goes live, everything is out there for everyone to see.

 

Enjoy hiding while you can.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Skeelol

[JediIorith]

Also, just for the record, I love the fact some people are assuming if you aren't in favor of things like a damage counter and such, you are a bad player. I'm playing a Sage, and I have my talent spec done just about perfectly. I never run out of Force Power, in PVP I ALWAYS top the charts as a healer, usually outhealing everyone else by 2x, and have never wiped in a Flashpoint(Except for the one with the turret intro, which once I stopped getting into the turret and just healed people in it, we did it with easy)

[Bigbazz]

Why do people spout lies and overexagerate about things like this.

 

I've seen on these forums.

 

1. Deadlyboss mods tell you exactly what to do.. - Well no they usually just put the timers on the screen and go RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA if you stand in fire, that's quite a bit different from telling you exactly what to do, or making it easy. If you're **** without them you're **** with them.

 

2. Macros - Allow you to put 30 abilities on 1 key.... all I can do when I read something like this is take a deep breath, and move on, I guess i've been playing different games with macros. You certaintly can't do anything like that in wow.

 

3. Damage meters, unfair and elitist, only used by kids who spam it. Would need its own 100page thread just to get started on the *****torm that this causes. I want data analasys though.

 

 

I know If this game does not move forward and offer what other MMO's have on offer I'm just going to get bored, I need something stimulate competitive play.

 

At the moment its like playing someone elses guitar, and not being allowed to tune it.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Bigbazz

[TheHauntingBard]

The jest of it it all is that you play a spreadsheet based MMO, everything has a formula.

Yet you don't want to know how everything works or how to become better in the game.

You're afraid that when people become better they will start harassing players.

 

The flaws with in this all are painfully obvious.

 

- People are competitive and like to be better when ever they play Pong/Sonic/SC2 or w/e.

Even a big aspect of RPG's is class building/damage mechanics.

 

- You don't care but you play a MMORPG not a single player game so others might care.

It's you're choice to play with a group and it's your responsibility to contribute to that group.

 

- Welcome to the Internet, people harass others just like in RL.

Get out of that basement and look around you , it just happens.

Blaming a tool for that is silly

 

 

- But gearscore!

Yeah before gearscore it was 'healing power' 'health' and before that ' blue gear' ' tier 1' and go on and on.

It has always been in mmo communities don't fool your self.

[Delekii]

Ah but with respect, you are wrong. What is being said in this thread is essentially 'I want these tools so I can discriminate against people I feel are not contributing in the way I desire'.

Again, completely missed the point. The argument you are discussing here was made in reference to your saying that people with addons are not necessarily the skilled ones, and people without are not necessarily the bad ones. I couldn't agree more - but that is not an argument for or against addons. A skilled player OR a bad player will always be better WHEN COMPARED WITH THEMSELVES when using appropriate addons for their situation. This is not a statement of subjectivity; it is a fact.

 

To me, that is not only elitist but defeats the point of it being a game. It's no longer about having fun, exploring, discovering, trying new things out, but regimented into watching meters and doing the same tired thing everyone else does because one combination has been proven to work.

Again, it is like religion saying "stop your scientific endeavors so we can explore the value of faith"; you are forcing your ideas of fun on to us and then decrying us for wanting the OPTION to do the same. I don't find ANY enjoyment in carrying bad players without the tools to improve my own play, or to quantify theirs. Why is your enjoyment more important than mine? Not to mention, that the tools are there doesn't mean you have to use them; you can play with like minded people who don't want to use them either. If they don't exist however, I am FORCED to play your way.

 

 

I don't have a problem with self-analysis and saying 'I could do X better', but it never stops there. Consider my request to make my stats private, which wouldn't stop self-analysis at all - immediately someone posted 'hey I can then immediately ignore them because I know they're going to fail'. Case closed.

What you are effectively asking for is for bad people to remain anonymous so they can get away with putting in the least amount of effort possible, simply because it is harder to detect. It is utterly absurd.

[Grammarye]

My friend, you're also missing the point.

 

This is an MMO, you play with others and you depend on others to progress.

 

Feel free to do whatever you like as long as it doesn't affect others, or accept that you can't do it your way in a game in which other people depend on you.

No, you're missing the point - I'm not advocating solo at all. I was playing MUDs & MMOs where people relied on me ten years ago before there were any meters, addons, or other things to help, and you know what? People did rely on me, because I knew my class and I knew the game. I knew how to react to surprises and I knew what to do when something happened. I didn't need technical assistance, or crutches, or meters. People judged me by my actual performance in the game; did we on average live or die, did we complete the objective, did I know what to do when the proverbial hit the fan, or when someone lagged, or someone made a mistake.

 

Can you dance on the edge knowing you're alive simply because you can know the game that well, mistakes and all? That's the thrill. I don't need a meter to do that; I don't really want one either. I don't want to depend on it; I want to depend on what I can do, how well I know what to do.

 

Maybe I'm just really old-school.

What you are effectively asking for is for bad people to remain anonymous so they can get away with putting in the least amount of effort possible, simply because it is harder to detect. It is utterly absurd.

You act as though somehow you have the right to judge, or they have something to prove to you. They don't, and you don't. We're all paying the same amount of money.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Grammarye

[Msbungle]

 

I know If this game does not move forward and offer what other MMO's have on offer I'm just going to get bored, I need something stimulate competitive play.

 

 

I thought that was what PVP was for?

[Delekii]

Bad analogy, although it shows that you take video games way to seriously.

 

It's like telling someone they can read a book, but criticize them if they don't read it sitting at a desk, instead of laying in bed. One might be better for you, but they are both doable.

 

Why is it up to you to tell me how seriously to take a video game? The whole point of it is that enjoyment is subjective and not objective. The reference I made is identically analogous. Religion is based in the faith that you are doing the right thing without any form of physical evidence, while science is (supposedly) evidence based practice whereby you don't accept that something is known without evidence. This is not an argument for or against religion or science, however the analogy is almost 100%. What you are doing is asking for the science of understanding the game, which I find enjoyable, to remain impossible, so that the faith based game of "I'll hit what I feel is right and hope for the best" can reign supreme.

 

Like I say to door-knocking religious nuts that come to my door; "why do you come to my door and tell me what to do? When was the last time I came and annoyed you in your church?"

[Skeelol]

Heh bigbazz there was already a 100 page or so thread about damage meters and the OP who was basically thanking BW for not implementing it suddenly vanished once someone posted the link which states they'll be in soon after launch.

 

Funny thread that was.

 

No, you're missing the point - I'm not advocating solo at all. I was playing MUDs & MMOs where people relied on me ten years ago before there were any meters, addons, or other things to help, and you know what? People did rely on me, because I knew my class and I knew the game. I knew how to react to surprises and I knew what to do when something happened. I didn't need technical assistance, or crutches, or meters. People judged me by my actual performance in the game; did we on average live or die, did we complete the objective, did I know what to do when the proverbial hit the fan, or when someone lagged, or someone made a mistake.

 

Can you dance on the edge knowing you're alive simply because you can know the game that well, mistakes and all? That's the thrill. I don't need a meter to do that; I don't really want one either. I don't want to depend on it; I want to depend on what I can do, how well I know what to do.

 

Maybe I'm just really old-school.

 

Nope, you're missing the point.

 

People aren't discussing mods that will hold your hand here. Telling you where to move when to do it to avoid damage and whatnot.

 

People are discussing performance meters to reflect if you're doing poorly or not and why. If you're against it it's nothing else than an excuse to be lazy and pretend to be good while in reality you're not.

 

Like it's been said a million times before, if you've got nothing to hide, then why are you arguing against it?

Edited December 23, 2011 by Skeelol

[Grammarye]

People are discussing performance meters to reflect if you're doing poorly or not and why. If you're against it it's nothing else than an excuse to be lazy and pretend to be good while in reality you're not.

Since you insist on putting words in my mouth & being insulting regardless of what I say, we're done here.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Grammarye

[TheHauntingBard]

No, you're missing the point - I'm not advocating solo at all. I was playing MUDs & MMOs where people relied on me ten years ago before there were any meters, addons, or other things to help, and you know what? People did rely on me, because I knew my class and I knew the game. I knew how to react to surprises and I knew what to do when something happened. I didn't need technical assistance, or crutches, or meters. People judged me by my actual performance in the game; did we on average live or die, did we complete the objective, did I know what to do when the proverbial hit the fan, or when someone lagged, or someone made a mistake.

 

Can you dance on the edge knowing you're alive simply because you can know the game that well, mistakes and all? That's the thrill. I don't need a meter to do that; I don't really want one either. I don't want to depend on it; I want to depend on what I can do, how well I know what to do.

 

Maybe I'm just really old-school.

 

 

Games moved on and became more complicated.

When you compare the difficulty of old MMO's with the new ones you can't deny that the mechanics are more complex simply because the technology wasn't available 15-20 years ago.

 

But you know what way before any computer people played D&D and you know what?

People used spreadsheets to calculate their damage, made complex builds and go on.

Ever tried to play a game of D&D with a very bad build?

You get hammered beyond believe, even if the DM isn't out there to wreck you.

 

Harsh as it sound people tend to over estimate themselves as well performance wise.

[Skeelol]

Since you insist on putting words in my mouth regardless of what I say, we're done here.

 

What words would that be? It's just a simple fact that's extremely obvious.

[Delekii]

You act as though somehow you have the right to judge, or they have something to prove to you. They don't, and you don't. We're all paying the same amount of money.

 

And yet you are telling us that you have the right to tell us we have to play with bad people. Can't you smell the hypocrisy? You pay the same amount as me, you get to play the way you want, and I don't. Right?

[Skeelol]

And yet you are telling us that you have the right to tell us we have to play with bad people. Can't you smell the hypocrisy? You pay the same amount as me, you get to play the way you want, and I don't. Right?

 

Exactly. But these people never respond with any logic to a simple statement like this. Sad fact, really.

[Shinavast]

Macros i'm pretty neutral on. I could take or leave them.

 

That said, UI customization is an absolute must. From scale to layout, i want to move / tweak just about everything, and i can't.

[Bigbazz]

I thought that was what PVP was for?

 

Competitive pve, theorycrafting and data analysis. Combat logs and damage meters. In WoW I was someone who basically played for the pure competition of combat log websites like World of Logs, WWS and WoWMeter.

 

The whole thing that drawed me into raiding was theorycrafting to gear my char perfectly and then aiming to achieve the highest damage in raids (we were a fairly decent high end guild, with top in the world competitive players, on those sites).

 

 

 

A lot of people can't understand a competitive person, many people get it from arenas (and i'd love that) but there is no real competitive ranked PVP in SW yet either (atleast not that I'm aware of)

 

 

And for any of this to exist, there needs to be.

 

 

Combat Log.

Customisable UI

Limited Macro System

Damage Parsers.

 

 

Thats just how I look at it. I want both competitive PvP AND Pve, with the tools to make it happen.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Bigbazz

[Bobbeh_Cgly]

Since you insist on putting words in my mouth & being insulting regardless of what I say, we're done here.

 

Gramm its ok hes a WoW Fanboi. They can't see past wow and if wow had it all mmo's must also have it. It would be illogical to not have it right....

 

 

The facts are BW has said they will but in a combat log, but they havent said they will allow mods, and if they do if they will allow mods that stretch more than just a local system.

 

So combat log, yes its coming

 

Local DPS meter, used for self improvement and rotation fixing, probably

 

Global DPS meter, who knows but i hope not.

 

Before you say well then hide behind your fail, im a tank sir, dps meter means very little to me, i have more damage reduction and hp than 90% of the tanks i run into on my server, with the same dps. so no im not a fail player