Bobbeh_Cgly Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Customization allows people with disabilities to do the same as everyone else. Whinging that addons shouldn't be added in is the same as saying you wouldn't customize a car for a disabled person. I bid you good day. noones saying that addons by BW to allow people with special needs to play the games to the same standard as the regular player arent good and needed that would be cruel and unusual, and discriminatory. and to you Ofcourse it isnt eve cause if it was you'd be laughed out of here as a carebear.... Just saying I'll make a concession to you, you can have all the addons, and macros you like as long as the end game raids arent instanced and i can build a raid group with the sole purpose of hunting raiding guilds.... now that sir sounds like fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truga Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 You mentioned competitive gameplay. In pvp if you go 1v1 bar the class balance issues you either win or lose. In pve if you raid with 15 other people you're not competitive at all without a tool to judge everyone's performance compared to yours. Or maybe you think "raid" vs "boss". "raid" beats "boss". "raid" was competitive with "boss". Lolling irl right now. Either everyone is competitive in your group, and is playing for the betterment of their character and their playing skill, and you're competing for 0-day completions and top spots in PVP ladders, or you're not in a guild that can compete. There is just no way in hell you'll stay competitive with top guilds if you need to have such tools to measure performance of other players. Every member of the raid group needs to be doing everything in their power to complete the raid, or there is just no way on earth you're going to stay competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbeh_Cgly Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Explain how a 'local addon' works or even what one is. How does one structure the scripting language the mods use to be 'local' or 'global'? This makes no sense. Certain information will be available for collation and certain information won't. The 'local' distinction is bizarre and nonsensical. Simply put they'd make it so that the combat log pulls from an api and that only you can view your info, its rather easy and simple, not sure why its hard to grasp. Local implies that it only is usuable to you and has no interaction or bearing on the outside world or other players Global implies that it is capable of interacting with other clients, building data in a group or a chart. Would allow all or any with access to see your info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeelol Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 noones saying that addons by BW to allow people with special needs to play the games to the same standard as the regular player arent good and needed that would be cruel and unusual, and discriminatory. and to you Ofcourse it isnt eve cause if it was you'd be laughed out of here as a carebear.... Just saying I'll make a concession to you, you can have all the addons, and macros you like as long as the end game raids arent instanced and i can build a raid group with the sole purpose of hunting raiding guilds.... now that sir sounds like fun I don't care about any macros/addons other than having a skada/recount tool to see: - who failed on dps and why, what abilities he failed to use, is he using the proper rotation, proper skills for his spec etc - who failed to heal or who failed and took unnecessary damage - who didn't interrupt - who interrupted something he shouldn't have - who didn't dispel - who dispelled something he shouldn't have - overall raid dps / healing - all debuffs/buffs gained and other information like this. This simply allows me to see who's failed in the raid and why. It also helps me see if he's going to do it again and again after trying to correct his error telling me that he's not fit for this level of raiding. I don't need addons to hold my hand like bossmods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truga Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I'll make a concession to you, you can have all the addons, and macros you like as long as the end game raids arent instanced and i can build a raid group with the sole purpose of hunting raiding guilds.... now that sir sounds like fun Lineage 2 used to be like that. None of the boses (and I do mean none) were instanced. About an hour before the boss spawned, charlie foxtrot happened in front of the room the boss spawned in. Once there was only one alliance left standing, they'd open the door, hop in and down the boss. The bosses themselves weren't very challenging, what with the 300 people hitting on a boss balanced against 100 people, but it was the single hardest non-eve game to compete in. Later they instanced most of the bosses, and now everyone runs around in boss gear. All the difference it made was that now boss gear is required for any real PVP, instead of the other way around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redshade Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Damage meters don't make better players either. Does boss die when you engage in your strategy? If yes then collect loot. If no then go back and try again. Is it really so hard to do that or do you only attempt bosses when you have giant great big alarm bells ringing across the screen telling you to do something. This is a game , the main aim is not just to kill bosses but to do so effectively, and better each time.You could always over gear the instance and complete the raid much faster. which dmage meters players can gauge their personal performance on a boss encounter.Id like to know how well i did after all it is a game like i said and part of the fun is doing better, progressing getting gear etc, i wanna see the improvements, don't you? without meters you can't tell who is doing better, the boss will die, that's obvious but what helped the most?? or are you those "everyones a winner, we all get gold medals" type fellow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Simply put they'd make it so that the combat log pulls from an api and that only you can view your info, its rather easy and simple, not sure why its hard to grasp. Local implies that it only is usuable to you and has no interaction or bearing on the outside world or other players Global implies that it is capable of interacting with other clients, building data in a group or a chart. Would allow all or any with access to see your info You do realize that addons do things like macro tells to each other to get around such limitations. Imposing these sort of blinders on an open scripting system is nontrivial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeelol Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) Lolling irl right now. Either everyone is competitive in your group, and is playing for the betterment of their character and their playing skill, and you're competing for 0-day completions and top spots in PVP ladders, or you're not in a guild that can compete. There is just no way in hell you'll stay competitive with top guilds if you need to have such tools to measure performance of other players. Every member of the raid group needs to be doing everything in their power to complete the raid, or there is just no way on earth you're going to stay competitive. Cool, you're making me laugh as well. This isn't WoW where top guilds are already established with a full raiding force. If it was, then you'd be right in not needing the tools. Even so, every top guild still uses the tools after every single raid to check who's still performing at top level or who needs replacing. But how could you possibly know that. However, guess what ..you're wrong. Edited December 23, 2011 by Skeelol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbeh_Cgly Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Lolling irl right now. Either everyone is competitive in your group, and is playing for the betterment of their character and their playing skill, and you're competing for 0-day completions and top spots in PVP ladders, or you're not in a guild that can compete. There is just no way in hell you'll stay competitive with top guilds if you need to have such tools to measure performance of other players. Every member of the raid group needs to be doing everything in their power to complete the raid, or there is just no way on earth you're going to stay competitive. Hey truga, how many fail pilots does PL recruit... knowing that their Fleet types are soo specific and skill intensive and difficult. Last i checked the recruitment process was deep and details so that when you actually got into the deep sh*t you werent watching your people you were watching the surroundings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knyghtprowler Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I love how some of these analogies are massively exaggerated to try to prove a point. It is a simple difference between people that find happiness is doing/thinking about menial tasks all day vs. people that know and understand the tasks but CHOOSE not to be bothered with it.. Can I do long hand math in all of its flavors? Sure.. Will I? hell no.. I will click "start" then "Calculator" and use that mod to get a what I need. If it is more complex than that or I know I will need this calculation agian and agian - I will make a spreadsheet and VBA it up or use functions. Why even THINK about something or waste time on it if it is readily available? Why guess at something when it can be proven and SHOWN to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sernon Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) You either do the boss, or you do not. Same as PvP just more ritualistic. All this posturing and muscle flexing is a gaming culture, that should be subdued since it obviously have caused enough damage. Many of us got used to play by intuition and observation, and that worked very well, without going endlessly about measuring measly percentages of everything. --- Edited December 23, 2011 by Sernon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbeh_Cgly Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 You do realize that addons do things like macro tells to each other to get around such limitations. Imposing these sort of blinders on an open scripting system is nontrivial. See the thing is who says BW will allow addons to be added client side? without approval by them first? What if BW simple said to Addon developers we check your addons if they do this we don't allow it to work in game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jestertron Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 They stated they have a team designated for each idea that every crybaby subscriber and Beta tester complained about is coming. people obviously don't read the stickies or try searching anything about what Bioware has planned. Yes, they know many people are not happy with the UI restrictions (of course I've been leveling just $%ing fine with it anyway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) See the thing is who says BW will allow addons to be added client side? without approval by them first? I do. I 100% promise they won't have some sort of bizarre vetting system for addons. What if BW simple said to Addon developers we check your addons if they do this we don't allow it to work in game Simply won't happen. I say so with supreme confidence. They'll revise their scripting language, not allow and disallow addons one at a time. Where do you nutjobs come up with this stuff? Edited December 23, 2011 by AlpsStranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeelol Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) You either do the boss, or you do not. Same as PvP just more ritualistic. All this posturing and muscle flexing is a gaming culture, that should be subdued since it obviously have caused enough damage. Many of us got used to play by intuition and observation, and that worked very well, without going endlessly about measuring measly percentages of everything. --- Cool story. So how do you identify why you weren't able to do a boss when you have 16 people in the raid? Ah, i know. You keep going at him til either he falls, or your raid ends. Brilliant! I love it when there's no need for logic. Edited December 23, 2011 by Skeelol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbeh_Cgly Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I do. I 100% promise they won't have some sort of bizarre vetting system for addons. Simply won't happen. I say so with supreme confidence. and i 100% promise you they will not alienate the Casual Players for the sake of the hardcore statletes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeelol Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) and i 100% promise you they will not alienate the Casual Players for the sake of the hardcore statletes They already stated they didn't hold back on the combat log to not "alienate" the "casuals" but due to technical issues. Edited December 23, 2011 by Skeelol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knyghtprowler Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 What if BW simple said to Addon developers we check your addons if they do this we don't allow it to work in game Go download the curse client and just browse the WoW addons once. There are tens of thousands of them. BW would need to devote a FULL time department to monitor and check mods as they came rolling in. I don't see them inventing an entrie department of people to oversee mods. It would make more business sense to limit access to the game via the api. That way the developers would know that no matter what we were to create third party. It could not have access to certain aspects of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 They already stated they didn't hold back on the combat log to not "alienate" the "casuals" but due to technical issues. Shh, don't tell Bobbeh that. The developers did basically scoff at this idea, but if he ever reads that he'll lose his mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keilin Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Are things dieing? And quickly at that? then dps is getting done, no need for a meter. Reading comprehension is your friend when utilizing your skills and abilities. And are people so accustomed to macro-easy playing that they just don't want to have to think anymore? I've read and heard all the arguements before, on both sides in so many other game forums. It gets tiring seeing just how easy people want things to be when it comes to MMO's, or how elitist they'd like to try to be (no not combining those, they are or can be completely separate.) My point is, these are MY oppinions, and you do not have to agree, that is your right. However, IMHO, if you NEED these mods and add-ons to play a simple game efficiently, then you really aren't as great a player as you think you are. The true test of skill comes from Reading, Understanding, Learning, Thinking, and utilizing all of it, on your own, with out aid... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) and i 100% promise you they will not alienate the Casual Players for the sake of the hardcore statletes You're wrong. Most casuals don't care either way. You're confusing casual with "aggressively anti-data-gathering." People who can get this worked up over addons are in no sense casual, no matter what side of the fence they are on. Edited December 23, 2011 by AlpsStranger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobbeh_Cgly Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Go download the curse client and just browse the WoW addons once. There are tens of thousands of them. BW would need to devote a FULL time department to monitor and check mods as they came rolling in. I don't see them inventing an entrie department of people to oversee mods. It would make more business sense to limit access to the game via the api. That way the developers would know that no matter what we were to create third party. It could not have access to certain aspects of the game. well exactly sir, that was my thinking as well, and with that api usage players would have some power over what infomation about their client is shared through and by addons, and BW would have control over what is shared and used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sernon Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Cool story. So how do you identify why you weren't able to do a boss when you have 16 people in the raid? Ah, i know. You keep going at him til either he falls, or your raid ends. Brilliant! Boss encounters are designed a certain way, you need to observe what is going on, and that does not by any definition of the word involve brilliance. Just an ability to learn and adapt, which obviously should be encouraged, since artificial crutches just limit your need to do exactly that. And yet, we would not be here if not for this most natural ability. Your argument would be valid if the encounters should prove to be chaotic and utterly random, but they are not, by design. Predictability can always be observed, and acted upon. --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlpsStranger Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 well exactly sir, that was my thinking as well, and with that api usage players would have some power over what infomation about their client is shared through and by addons, and BW would have control over what is shared and used. Then we come full circle to my point about 'local addons.' This is precisely why the distinction makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeelol Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) Are ne, no need for a meter. With a group that thinks that way you wouldn't be able to kill a single boss in any raid. Probably something you're used to. Boss encounters are designed a certain way, you need to observe what is going on, and that does not by any definition of the word involve brilliance. Just an ability to learn and adapt, which obviously should be encouraged, since artificial crutches just limit your need to do exactly that. And yet, we would not be here if not for this most natural ability. Your argument would be valid if the encounters should prove to be chaotic and utterly random, but they are not, by design. Predictability can always be observed, and acted upon. --- It's nice to talk about stuff you don't know. Try doing some hardmode raids before anyone knows the tactics, then come back to me on that. Gonna be a long wait, but hey. Edited December 23, 2011 by Skeelol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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