How terrible is a concealment Op in PvP?

[RyderQuanTy]

Well, when the stars align and all is right in the world, yes--Combat/Carnage DOES have awesome burst. But there are thee salient things that concealment operatives conveniently avoid mentioning every time they make the "woe is me" arguments.

 

They have FULL resources at the start. Pitched battles are fine, and Sentinels/Marauders are strongest in already started battles. When caught alone and in the open is when THEY are vulnerable and Operatives are strongest. They are, with Assassins, the 1v1 rulers. Operatives that complain or argue "snarf--the game is not balanced around 1v1--snarf, snarf" should abdicate their rule and play something completely different or abandon Concealment. They elected to play the lone wolves, the gankers. They don't get to change the rules mid-game because they realized that the role is highly specialized and requires a certain skill set to function optimally. But, as they're asking for a rules change (more durability) their burst MUST be nerfed as that happens.

 

Concealment also gets to attack with initiative and surprise. That is, they can wait for the most opportune moment to strike and obliterate their targets without the target being able to do much. It's why one never allows (or should not allow) anyone but a stealth class or a tank to guard a node. Even with all my cooldowns up, should I be caught flat footed (from full stop) it is, at best, an uphill battle from the words Hidden Strike. I know what to do. I know when to time things--but that does not make it a guarantee. An equally skilled Concealment Operative is going to best me in single combat most of the time and even if he doesn't--

 

Concealment operatives may disengage at any time of their choosing and RE-OPEN or escape. I don't get to do that. I cannot, except against poorly played operatives, prevent him from staying concealed because they have a cleanse ability. THAT is their durability, but they too often omit that point when boo-hooing about their niche in PvP.

 

I get that Assassins have better burst in some cases. What that means is that Assassins should be nerfed and nothing else.

 

Well said in fact very well said but In addition to what you said In ongoing large battles operatives can remain back support with heals, strong dots, and other attacks both aoe and single target from range assasins can not provide this type of support. operatives are far superior at defending a position. The fact is most operatives don't play with there full deck.

[JabstJaif]

Well, when the stars align and all is right in the world, yes--Combat/Carnage DOES have awesome burst. But there are thee salient things that concealment operatives conveniently avoid mentioning every time they make the "woe is me" arguments.

 

They have FULL resources at the start. Pitched battles are fine, and Sentinels/Marauders are strongest in already started battles. When caught alone and in the open is when THEY are vulnerable and Operatives are strongest. They are, with Assassins, the 1v1 rulers. Operatives that complain or argue "snarf--the game is not balanced around 1v1--snarf, snarf" should abdicate their rule and play something completely different or abandon Concealment. They elected to play the lone wolves, the gankers. They don't get to change the rules mid-game because they realized that the role is highly specialized and requires a certain skill set to function optimally. But, as they're asking for a rules change (more durability) their burst MUST be nerfed as that happens.

 

Concealment also gets to attack with initiative and surprise. That is, they can wait for the most opportune moment to strike and obliterate their targets without the target being able to do much. It's why one never allows (or should not allow) anyone but a stealth class or a tank to guard a node. Even with all my cooldowns up, should I be caught flat footed (from full stop) it is, at best, an uphill battle from the words Hidden Strike. I know what to do. I know when to time things--but that does not make it a guarantee. An equally skilled Concealment Operative is going to best me in single combat most of the time and even if he doesn't--

 

Concealment operatives may disengage at any time of their choosing and RE-OPEN or escape. I don't get to do that. I cannot, except against poorly played operatives, prevent him from staying concealed because they have a cleanse ability. THAT is their durability, but they too often omit that point when boo-hooing about their niche in PvP.

 

I get that Assassins have better burst in some cases. What that means is that Assassins should be nerfed and nothing else.

 

Got to say I agree. Concealment Operative is not the same playstyle as the other classes. This is where people fail at being a concealment operative. You can't jump in the middle of a fight and survive. Our class is built upon stealth and popping in and out to kill our selected targets. This game isn't 1v1 oriented and that is where a lot of complaints come from. Our class is essentially built to perform in 1v1 situations. Doesn't mean that we choose to 1v1 the dps running between nodes when he is all alone because "Look at me I can kill someone 1v1". We have some amazing bursts and damage when we start our opener, and it's phenomenal damage to the right target. The tank with 37k hp? Probably not the best one to open up on. The healer who has 2/3 of his health with an empty resolve meter and getting focused from a ranged? Bingo. Healer dead now, now we can clean up the dps. As long as you can survive in the background not getting focused you can easily perform as well as any other dps class.

 

Not to toot my own horn, but last night I did hours worth of matches on my operative and had some great matches. Sure there are some where you get focused and can't really do crap, but I'd say a good 80% of my matches I was top 3 dps # wise and usually broke 450k damage. And gear wise I'm full Conqueror with have augmented. But again I'm not sitting there hitting a healer or dps forever. Just carefully opening on the half dead targets to quickly finish them before helping with the others.

[Arcadius-Fett]

There is a specific playstyle that this spec excels at, and that is cleaning up opponents for your team, locking down healers, and 1v1. Unfortunately, the second the enemy team bats an eyelash in your direction you're dead if you don't have Cloaking Screen and Evasion available.

 

The game is not balanced around 1v1, it's balanced around team play, and in well coordinated team play, the only thing that will save a Concealment Operative from being focused are screw ups on the enemy's part and great teammates. You can't take Concealment into competitive play, not without some adjustments to their survivability and damage. Because even when the stars align and our awesome burst does make an appearance, it's still some of the lowest in the game.

 

I don't feel special when I Hidden Strike a Merc in PvE gear for 8.5k, or a Sentinel in PvE gear in the Outlaw's Den for 10.8k. I do however feel like a chump when I crit a Hidden Strike in a Warzone on a Sorc with only a few Conqueror pieces for 6k only to have his teammate turn around and smash me for over 8k even though I'm in fully augmented Obroan.

 

Our damage is not good enough to excuse our poor defenses, and our weak energy-starving off heals aren't either. But increasing one or both of those things still won't make Concealment viable in Ranked Arenas. The class needs adjustments to it's defensive abilities and definitely needs AOE damage reduction as well as some better defensive talents in the DPS trees.

[JabstJaif]

Yesterday was the first time I took my operative into ranked warzones. Given these weren't premades we were fighting, but the first one I took him into was us 4 random dps vs 4 smashers. Odds were already stacked against us. Of course I will say that the 2 sents and 2 guardians we fought didn't know their CDs very well. Start of the match I rolled all of the way to their entrance and got behind them on the ramp. They were on top while the rest of the team was on the bottom. I was up with them and by now my energy was at maximum. 2 guardians and 1 sent leapt off at about the same time and it left the 4th up there for 1 second too long. Now that he was seperated and too far away from his friends, and they had already blown their leap. I used my opener on the sentinel and ended up killing him. We went 1-2 and each time they were all around 15% hp left with no more cooldowns. Sure we didn't win, and it was lucky that the last sentinel didn't leap off with the others in sync.

 

The point is as an operative our opener hits for enough damage to drain any class except tanks to well below half hp. With a well coordinated team we could easily have double stealth opened on a dps or healer and one shot them.

 

I'm not saying that you guys are idiots and that operatives are awesome and that no one knows how to play them, but as stated above, when the stars align and Hailey's Comet circles the sun twice that we get a setup like I had we can shine.

[malevs]

Been really having fun with concealment pvp til I started doing ranked.

 

I do very welll in regs when I got full auged conq I decided to try ranked. Total lesson in humility. Against 2 smashers in a team fight I I was less than 10% in LITERALLY 2 seconds, i was useless. I am not the best op by far, but I am not terrible. This isn't fun or remotely fair, not to mention the hate whispers I got for even having the gaul to queue as concealment.

Edited December 28, 2013 by malevs

[benovide]

Not sure what others have said, don't really care to read through the thread. But anyways, just like Deception for the Assassin, you're a skirmisher.

 

You go in, pick your target, do everything you can within 15 seconds of initiating attack, than ****.

 

Rinse-repeat.

 

If in Huttball however, maneuver around enemy team, and you can easily score one after another.

 

Ultimately, you need to pick your fights. Even just staying stealthed the entire game stunning everyone left and right, can have a HUGE impact on the overall PVP match.

 

There are more CCs for the OP that can be used while maintaining stealth than the Assassin. You can essentially cripple an entire team without dealing any damage at all.

[benovide]

Been really having fun with concealment pvp til I started doing ranked.

 

I do very welll in regs when I got full auged conq I decided to try ranked. Total lesson in humility. Against 2 smashers in a team fight I I was less than 10% in LITERALLY 2 seconds, i was useless. I am not the best op by far, but I am not terrible. This isn't fun or remotely fair, not to mention the hate whispers I got for even having the gaul to queue as concealment.

 

It's the fact you brought an Operative into it.

 

The only classes you should ever bring into a ranked: Assassin,(DPS) Juggernaut (Tank Spec) Powertech (Tank spec) Sniper (Marksman) and Marauder (Carnage). for healing, is the only time you ever bring in a Sorc or Operative. Don't even bother trying to DPS.

[Arcadius-Fett]

Yesterday was the first time I took my operative into ranked warzones. Given these weren't premades we were fighting, but the first one I took him into was us 4 random dps vs 4 smashers. Odds were already stacked against us. Of course I will say that the 2 sents and 2 guardians we fought didn't know their CDs very well. Start of the match I rolled all of the way to their entrance and got behind them on the ramp. They were on top while the rest of the team was on the bottom. I was up with them and by now my energy was at maximum. 2 guardians and 1 sent leapt off at about the same time and it left the 4th up there for 1 second too long. Now that he was seperated and too far away from his friends, and they had already blown their leap. I used my opener on the sentinel and ended up killing him. We went 1-2 and each time they were all around 15% hp left with no more cooldowns. Sure we didn't win, and it was lucky that the last sentinel didn't leap off with the others in sync.

 

The point is as an operative our opener hits for enough damage to drain any class except tanks to well below half hp. With a well coordinated team we could easily have double stealth opened on a dps or healer and one shot them.

 

I'm not saying that you guys are idiots and that operatives are awesome and that no one knows how to play them, but as stated above, when the stars align and Hailey's Comet circles the sun twice that we get a setup like I had we can shine.

I'm glad you think miracles and bad opponents are what determine a class' viability and standing within the current state of class balancing.

 

 

 

It's the fact you brought an Operative into it.

 

The only classes you should ever bring into a ranked: Assassin,(DPS) Juggernaut (Tank Spec) Powertech (Tank spec) Sniper (Marksman) and Marauder (Carnage). for healing, is the only time you ever bring in a Sorc or Operative. Don't even bother trying to DPS.

Don't forget PT hybrids and stacking smashers. This post is pretty spot on, and just goes to show how badly some classes need to be tweaked.

 

I'm surprised you stated the spec is fine as is and then went on to say it has no place in arenas, which is true.

 

Also, only Concealment has 2 CCs that can be used from stealth, ALL Assassins have 2 CCs that can be used from stealth that all 3 specs can use (and one can use it outside of stealth). Concealment gets a root, one stun, and an aoe mez. Deception gets a slow that can be reapplied before it wears off, a stun, a mez, a shorter cooldown on their interrupt, and a knockback. Not to mention all that DR and the fact that they get an autocrit when they already do so much more damage.

 

Concealment and Deception are not supposed to be mirrors, but they fill the same exact role and one is clearly superior.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Arcadius-Fett

[Uber_the_Goober]

Also, only Concealment has 2 CCs that can be used from stealth, ALL Assassins have 2 CCs that can be used from stealth that all 3 specs can use (and one can use it outside of stealth).

 

??

 

Which two CC's can I use from stealth now on my Concealment Operative? You're not counting Hidden Strike are you? I have sleep dart. Anything else breaks stealth. Flashbang? Breaks stealth. Debilitate? Breaks stealth. Sever Tendon? Breaks stealth.

[JabstJaif]

I was going to say...only sleep dart is a CC from stealth. Everything else breaks stealth. Learn to play a concealment operative before you belittle people on it.

 

And concealment dps in arenas isn't a waste when you can play the class right. I've played ranked and regular arenas and have out-dpsed marauders and assassins in virtually every one. Sorry, but it's true. It's scarce when I enter an arena that I don't come out with top dps.

Edited December 30, 2013 by JabstJaif

[Uber_the_Goober]

And concealment dps in arenas isn't a waste when you can play the class right. I've played ranked and regular arenas and have out-dpsed marauders and assassins in virtually every one. Sorry, but it's true. It's scarce when I enter an arena that I don't come out with top dps.

 

LoL this is totally true in my case - however the times when I'm facing a team who is actually paying attention, I get nuked. Facing PUGs with their random team comps and their tactic-less Mercs/Marauders/Keyboard Turners may give me decent numbers on the scoreboard, but doesn't do very much for my confidence when facing a real team.

 

FWIW, I almost exclusively solo-queue on my Operative, because the only other guy I PvP with is currently leveling an assassin. When he gets geared (I estimate 65 played hours from new char to full conq geared sin - NEVER WHINE ABOUT GEAR GRIND AGAIN!) we'll be out playing the ganking game on Oricon until the next game comes along. There's just not enough left in warzones to hold my interest for much longer.

[Cordorian]

LoL this is totally true in my case - however the times when I'm facing a team who is actually paying attention, I get nuked. Facing PUGs with their random team comps and their tactic-less Mercs/Marauders/Keyboard Turners may give me decent numbers on the scoreboard, but doesn't do very much for my confidence when facing a real team.

 

FWIW, I almost exclusively solo-queue on my Operative, because the only other guy I PvP with is currently leveling an assassin. When he gets geared (I estimate 65 played hours from new char to full conq geared sin - NEVER WHINE ABOUT GEAR GRIND AGAIN!) we'll be out playing the ganking game on Oricon until the next game comes along. There's just not enough left in warzones to hold my interest for much longer.

 

I just finished leveling my healing scoundrel.... and for fun and giggle went my favourite spec again (the forbidden one) and we queued a bit as ganking team.... one scoundrel healer, shadow tank, 3 infiltration shadows and 3 scrappers.... that was ridiculously fun. getting synched pops didnt always work.... but my half of the team 3 crappers and one deceptions got some arena pops we only lost one by a DC but nothing better than a ganking tam one. One the one voidstar we got all 8 was priceless...must. I did good damage although only having PVE gear on this on this toon, so i think mostly can confirm that damage is actually ok, the burst is still not reliable,

 

For me it will always be the most fun spec in game, but i will never really use it outside of ganking nonsense stuff anymore. Yes eventually you can get a lonly combat sentinel down in a wz (it happened to me quite often on my sent), yes you can finish half dead target, that others left over and you make a decent node guard or ninja capper (still assassins are better in that, and they the why better huttball trolll (me wants assassin pull:P)) but when you face some player that know what to do, you can be completely nullified. In open battle you only chance of survial is enemy stupidity.

 

My PVE geared sawbones scoundrel ganks fully augmented obroan concealment operatives while still hotting my team, which i remember well of being not that bad while playing my operative back then. the inability to do anything against scoundrel and operative healers means you are mostly you can not even do the one little thing that is expected to you in a group fight. Yes op heals are hard to take down, but it shouldnt be that they actually gank the attacker while still healing (no i am not call for a nerf), it doesnt work with assassins, and it only works against very bad marauders as well.

 

Nonewithstanding concealment is the most fun spec in game, so it is always worth going through the pains and having some of those glory moments from time to time. And yes form a ganking team

[CmdrXaan]

Valor 87 Operative here on Jung Ma:

 

Operative DPS is not an easy class to play, you have to know the enemy classes, know when to stun, when to move, when to cleanse, it's very involved. Your going to pull less numbers than others, unless you work really hard.

 

That being said. Speaking from personal experience, nothing scares the crap out of me more than a good DPS Operative or Scoundrel opening up on me while I heal, they make excellent healer control.

 

It's hard to be good at it, but if you can, you can do some serious damage to the enemy.

If you aren't good at it, your going to be a waste of space on your team, not trying to sound mean.

 

They also excel at 1v1s, ninja capping, etc.

 

TL;DR Good DPS operatives are scary good, bad ones are VERY bad.

[Arcadius-Fett]

??

 

Which two CC's can I use from stealth now on my Concealment Operative? You're not counting Hidden Strike are you? I have sleep dart. Anything else breaks stealth. Flashbang? Breaks stealth. Debilitate? Breaks stealth. Sever Tendon? Breaks stealth.

A CC is any type of ability that controls your enemy.

 

All of the Operative and Assassin CCs can be used from stealth, but both Hidden Strike and Spike require you to be in stealth to use them.

 

That section of my post was a response to this:

There are more CCs for the OP that can be used while maintaining stealth than the Assassin. You can essentially cripple an entire team without dealing any damage at all.

 

All CCs can be used from stealth and both Assassins and Operatives each only have 1 CC that will not break stealth. But they both have 2 CCs which can only be used from stealth, however Concealment's Hidden Strike and Spike will break stealth. If you think that makes them non-stealth CCs so be it, I'd chalk that one up to 'point of view' since you can argue that its stealth requirement makes it a stealth CC or that its unstealthing effect doesn't.

 

Either way you look at it, they're pretty even.

 

I was going to say...only sleep dart is a CC from stealth. Everything else breaks stealth. Learn to play a concealment operative before you belittle people on it.

 

And concealment dps in arenas isn't a waste when you can play the class right. I've played ranked and regular arenas and have out-dpsed marauders and assassins in virtually every one. Sorry, but it's true. It's scarce when I enter an arena that I don't come out with top dps.

I've been playing the game since beta, and I shoved my Merc to the side in favor of my Op after hitting 50 less than a week after the game came out. I leveled my Op through concealment in PvP and healing Flashpoints. I'm absolutely certain I know how to play this class.

 

I have no trouble being one of if not the top dps in warzones and arenas, as well as kills, and of course due to the nature of our playstyle, least deaths. That by no means changes the fact that we are, along with sorcs, at the bottom of the list of classes you want in an Arena.

Edited December 31, 2013 by Arcadius-Fett

[Tattum]

I cannot recall who wrote it, but he mentioned that our defense was included in our offense..

 

And I believe it is the fact..

 

You see, back in old days, when operatives striked, only few could withstand our true power, therefore we had no need for defensive cooldowns since art of being operative lies in knowing how to pick your target and when exactly to strike..

 

Therefore if you think that getting new defensive cooldowns is gonna solve anything, you are wrong... we ought to get at least a bit of our old strenght.. not too much to get complained about, but not too little to not make a difference ..

 

 

 

If you think otherwise of concealment , I'm sorry but I have to tell you that you should play a different class...

 

Concealment's sole purpose is guerilla war... pick target, strike when he is most vulnerable and get onto next target...

Edited January 1, 2014 by Tattum

[Racter]

Concealments place in all of your opinions is a bench warmer. All of you are supporting the cause of us remaining bench warmers. Willingly excluding yourselves from competition. You're all good with that. Lol

[athanase]

The problem is not with DPS but with survivability. Any duel is a challenge, any focus an instant death.

 

Here is the epitaph written on the tombgrave of a concealment OP killed 22 times during a single Huttball match :

"Plenty of nemesis, Nemesis of no one. Where I am sure to loose, an assassin can win. Where an assassin is sure to win, I may loose. "

 

That's why most of concealment OP players finally choose to believe in a particular kind of metempsychosis, mostly found on MMORPG : rerolling

Edited January 1, 2014 by athanase

[Warpthasm]

The problem is not with DPS but with survivability. Any duel is a challenge, any focus an instant death.

 

Here is the epitaph written on the tombgrave of a concealment OP killed 22 times during a single Huttball match :

"Plenty of nemesis, Nemesis of no one. Where I am sure to loose, an assassin can win. Where an assassin is sure to win, I may loose. "

 

That's why most of concealment OP players finally choose to believe in a particular kind of metempsychosis, mostly found on MMORPG : rerolling

I don`t think so. This spec should appear from stealth at the right moment, quickly nuke the target, throw a flashbang and make swift distance. He should not be an assassin clone or something like that.

P.S. Backstab and hidden strike should get a lesser cooldown. Stimboost should generate energy. Sneak should give dodge %.

[athanase]

Show me where i ever said that ops and sins should share the same mechanics..

 

The gameplay you favor was happily ended when the first nerf occured.

I can understand that an unskill player could love it, but i personnally prefer to use more than 3 skills in a fight. The point is now to find a way to make the concealment op competitive in skilled hands. That's why devs must improve its survivability. I agree that a better energy generation could help, but only dodge and mitigation improvements can solve the problem. The metagame wants it.

PS : hidden strike has no CD...

Edited January 2, 2014 by athanase

[jack__]

PS : hidden strike has no CD...

PPS : Hidden Strike has a 7.5 second cooldown ...

[athanase]

you're right, my mistake :'(

[Warpthasm]

you're right, my mistake :'(

 

I suspect not your first or last in the matter.

[athanase]

Better make my little one thant big yours.

[Warpthasm]

Better make my little one thant big yours.

 

Lolrly. You do not know the cooldowns, therefore you have a very limited sight of rotations. You say that there is more than 3 buttons. So how many you know? 4?

[Cempa]

Do concealment ops ever use cover? for what purpose?