Jedi Guardian Changes - Game Update 2.5

[Alec_Fortescue]

It even crawls into my head that further neglect of DPS jugs is reflected in our set bonus. We are FORCED to take other class' set bonus to get best results -_-

[KeyboardNinja]

KBN, got something to back up that Jug dpsers also take more dmg than most other dpsers?

 

It's not that DPS juggs take more damage than other DPSers, it's that *tank* juggs take more damage than other tanks. I do have math to show that (http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=616779).

 

DPS juggs do take a fairly large amount of damage, but they have some excellent cooldowns and heavy armor. Sages (of both specs, but especially TK) take the most, but they're ranged. Dirty Fighting scoundrels take the most of the melee, followed by Scrapper, Balance Shadows, Infil Shadows, etc. Juggs are actually pretty far down the list in terms of damage taken as a melee DPS, which is at least one nice thing they have going for them. It's just that they're often compared to Sentinels, who have some outstandingly good cooldowns (especially Rebuke) as well as very good passive defenses.

 

It even crawls into my head that further neglect of DPS jugs is reflected in our set bonus. We are FORCED to take other class' set bonus to get best results -_-

 

Try being a scoundrel. :-) We have to take another class's PvP set bonus in order to be optimal. Talk about a kick in the teeth…

Edited October 17, 2013 by KeyboardNinja

[paowee]

So, a Juggernaut/Guardian will have cc immunity from leap, and with this change ravage/master strike will root the target. Am I the only one who thinks this is a major problem? After every leap the oposing player will have no choise but to eat an entire ravage. Balanced?

 

Vengeance and Vigilance spec, not all Juggernauts or Guardians. Do you prefer to see more Smash Juggs on top of Smash Marauders? I think it is a good incentive to bring other specs into the play. Instead of seeing just Smash all day long.

[DresG]

Vengeance and Vigilance spec, not all Juggernauts or Guardians. Do you prefer to see more Smash Juggs on top of Smash Marauders? I think it is a good incentive to bring other specs into the play. Instead of seeing just Smash all day long.

 

I do not want the spec I've played for so long (despite the fact that Focus is easier to play and be effective with) to become the new FotM.

 

As much as I love my MS to root, I would prefer if it benefited from an alacrity boost every time Zen Strike procs. Imagine a half duration MS (only Zen procced) it would give us nice burst without adding any more damage, this benefits both PvE and PvP.

 

Vigilance does not need more DPS, if you want more DPS then reroll a Sentinel.

[Manweth]

Vigilance does not need more DPS, if you want more DPS then reroll a Sentinel.

 

If Bioware devs are men of their words of that "every DPS spec will be within %5 gap of DPS difference", Vigilance needs a boost.

 

As of now, we are %7 behind sents and gunslinger....Well, I really don't even look at slingers anymore, it's getting ridicilous with their numbers.

[cs_zoltan]

Additionally, guardians currently have issues with Force/Tech heavy instances (e.g. Terror from Beyond and Dread Palace) due to the class's heavy reliance on defense chance. This is a fair tradeoff, and it does set up a nice cross-balance situation with vanguards, but it can be a little annoying. One way to fix both the survivability issues and the over-reliance on defense is to provide a talented buff to shield and absorb. I did the math on this proposal on this thread: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=687924 Roughly, buffing shield chance by 5% and absorb by 15% would bring guardians almost precisely in line with vanguards (still slightly behind for average content) and balance out their mitigation focus, reducing their survivability disparity between melee/ranged heavy bosses (like Nefra) and force/tech heavy bosses (like Brontes).

 

So how is that balanced? Guardians have miles better dcds than Vanguards.

Edited October 18, 2013 by cs_zoltan

[Alec_Fortescue]

It's not that DPS juggs take more damage than other DPSers, it's that *tank* juggs take more damage than other tanks. I do have math to show that (http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=616779).

 

DPS juggs do take a fairly large amount of damage, but they have some excellent cooldowns and heavy armor. Sages (of both specs, but especially TK) take the most, but they're ranged. Dirty Fighting scoundrels take the most of the melee, followed by Scrapper, Balance Shadows, Infil Shadows, etc. Juggs are actually pretty far down the list in terms of damage taken as a melee DPS, which is at least one nice thing they have going for them. It's just that they're often compared to Sentinels, who have some outstandingly good cooldowns (especially Rebuke) as well as very good passive defenses.

 

 

 

Try being a scoundrel. :-) We have to take another class's PvP set bonus in order to be optimal. Talk about a kick in the teeth…

 

I meant if you can figure out something to back up what i am saying that Jug dps is one of the most exposed and vulnerable dps classes. They do appear to take much more damage than many others despite their heavy armor.

[Manweth]

We get taken for HM raids now? Seriously though, we already don't get taken if there is any other class available, now it just makes it even worse.

 

In all honesty, if you are a capable Vigilance who can hold his own against %95 of sentinels, you are taken. Actually, some of the first NiM clearing grps had Vigs in it.

 

That being said, at the current rate this goes, we are going to be the new Infiltration Shadows of this game.

[RyderQuanTy]

I only pvp and my though are only pvp related.

 

I think this will further alter the original game play of the Vigilance. From launch the damage percent of blasé storm and force sweep were reduced due to changes in single saber mastery for the other specs and Zen was added making master strike a siginifance part of our damage vs a steady flow very small peaks peak and valleys. With the 2.o changes to dispatch, sunder the peaks and vallys got very high and the use of blade storm crit proc no longer fit seamlessly in with plasma brand and over head slash. All of which created an unpredictable dps output so how does a root change us further.

 

What the root means in pvp. I see people discussing Ms after leap but MS will no longer follow a leap. Players will OHS BS sunder MS PB if you are lucky PB triggers zen so dispatch MS again back off force leap repeat. The control is off the charts There is some cat and mouse with FP AWE Guardian leap and stasis to keep the rotation. But 30% of the time force leap will result in a solo kill

[kennethdale]

I meant if you can figure out something to back up what i am saying that Jug dps is one of the most exposed and vulnerable dps classes. They do appear to take much more damage than many others despite their heavy armor.

 

Not an avid PvPer but it seems to be that this is mostly because all of the other melee classes are about getting in and out; Focus (obviously) jumps around a lot and does their Sweeps etc, Shads/Scoundrels both are hit and runners and not there for the sustained kill, VGs can do a few abilities at range and can pull (depending on spec), whereas Guards are all about staying in the middle of things (obviously, discounting Focus). Hell, Ravage is a completely stationary attack meaning if an AoE is dropped on you you are going to have to weigh the consequences of staying in it to finish off a player or leaving in hopes of minimizing incoming damage. We do have intercede and it is a very powerful ability in PvP but the fact still remains that all of our hardest hitting abilities above 30% are all melee. We have no choice but to be in the middle of damage and therefore take a lot of it.

[Hornakkan]

Hey everyone,

 

Below are the planned Jedi Guardian changes for Game Update 2.5. Please use this thread to give feedback for these changes. You can read the full class changes blog here!

 

Jedi Guardian

 

Vigilance

• Debilitation has been added to the Vigilance skill tree and provides a 50/100% chance to immobilize the target for the duration of Master Strike.

 

 

Where are the PvE changes to our too much RNG reliable DPS especially in Vigilance ?

[Alec_Fortescue]

Not an avid PvPer but it seems to be that this is mostly because all of the other melee classes are about getting in and out; Focus (obviously) jumps around a lot and does their Sweeps etc, Shads/Scoundrels both are hit and runners and not there for the sustained kill, VGs can do a few abilities at range and can pull (depending on spec), whereas Guards are all about staying in the middle of things (obviously, discounting Focus). Hell, Ravage is a completely stationary attack meaning if an AoE is dropped on you you are going to have to weigh the consequences of staying in it to finish off a player or leaving in hopes of minimizing incoming damage. We do have intercede and it is a very powerful ability in PvP but the fact still remains that all of our hardest hitting abilities above 30% are all melee. We have no choice but to be in the middle of damage and therefore take a lot of it.

 

That's one of the reasons alright. But so often I see dps vanguards which I can smash for barely 4-5k and same with Marauders and their pro-talent. At the same time I get smashed for 7k, even with Saber Ward up, if enemy has BT on.

[Baron_Samedi]

1) OK, that is somewhat good change providing it WORKS.

 

All too many times I've encountered that Guardian roots do not function: say, leap is 2sec+1 for 2 points of Stagger.

Now, one of the best uses is in HUTTBALL, when an enemy ballcarrier crosses a grill. You leap on him when he is in the beginning of the grill and jump (space) away. There is huge chance that the grill will get him, if not totally, then at least 50%.

BUT THAT DOES NOT HAPPEN 2 OUT OF 5 TIMES! You leap to him, he should sit down for 3 seconds - but he MOVES.

And it is very often not cc breaker - that I say from experience.

 

Also, Awe seems not to work nicely - even in PvE. Yesterday, on VOSS, I popped Awe on 4 NPCs... 3 succumb, one DIDN'T! Although NO DAMAGE WAS MADE.

 

I also submitted the ticket that Sweep seems off... Distance is weird - sometimes damage is not applied within 5 meters and damage takes place on KEYSTROKE, NOT on animation.

 

Maybe it is my account - wasn't active for over a year.

 

2) Oh, yes - we really need one small itzy bitzy root-braker on slow cooldown. But you knew that from the beginning of the game. And you didn't do nothing, except putting it on ZELOUS LEAP. And what if I run Vigilance and not Focus?

 

We now have 2 almost useless damage reductions: Focused Defense (which you can pop up only when you have plenty of focus) and Saber Reflect (again not functioning from time to time - I was single-targeted by an op, popped my Saber Reflect and got damaged normally). Focused Defense is too costly for almost no gain - you get only 3% over 10 seconds, for mere prize of 4 focus - which is the MOST EXPENSIVE focus cost - when I have 4 focus, then I think BLADE STORM. Not Focused Defense.

And Saber Reflect is lightyears from good damage reduction - 3 seconds is nothing.

 

Hence, a Guardian standing in WZ is a dead Guardian. And VERY often we stand because of ccs.

Btw, resolute bar seems to vanish so quickly that its incredible - only 5-6 seconds? Do I get it wrong?

 

3) Resolute - still on 1 minute cd, eh?

 

I will give you situation I had yesterday to show the absurdity of this: ANCIENT PILLARS need only 6 seconds to cap. An OP came, mezzmed for 8 sec and capped. I didn't have Resolute. I cried for help in chat - they rushed, but they need bout 15 sec from center to here.

(Hence you need AT LEAST 2 peeps to guard the pillar - which make CC based clasess OP in Ancien Pilliars WZ).

 

Suggestion - make it 8 sec cap.

 

So, under 1,2 and 3 you have the issues you might want to address.

[countpopeula]

Another example would be Nightmare Dread Guard. I think we can both agree that Death and Taxes and Grey Order were both clearing content competitively. They came out and claimed (based on practical testing) that the fight was impossible pre-nerf. Everyone mostly agreed with them, except for a couple of theorycrafters who took the damage levels and showed that the fight was indeed possible, but it required an extremely high level of execution from the DPS. Those predictions matched almost exactly with DiLiH's first kill.

 

Just because someone is in a group that is clearing content competitively doesn't mean that they're doing everything right. It just means that they (and more importantly, their group) are doing enough things more right than everyone else. The converse is also true. Just because someone isn't getting world firsts doesn't mean their opinion is to be discarded. My favorite example of this is Red'october, who was previously in a guild who wasn't able to reliably clear the 2.0 HMs even into August, but he was (and is) undeniably one of the foremost gunslingers in the world. Should his opinion have been discarded simply because he wasn't in a group that was pushing the cutting-edge? Absolutely not.

 

Just because HMD Magenta's tanks are ignoring optimal statting and getting world firsts doesn't mean that is the right approach. It also doesn't mean it's universal. Again, don't over-generalize. Numerous guilds that are raiding competitively are following optimal statting and doing just fine. My guild cleared 4/5 in both of the new HMs within the first four days after the content dropped, we just didn't report it on the world progression thread (as many guilds don't). So, we would have top 5 clears on eight of the bosses, and top 20 on the others. Yet our tanks are following the computed optimal statting for each instance and seem to be doing just fine.

 

I was in that TGO group, and while Krazy made the claim that the fight was mathematically impossible, it got translated incorrectly here. What he, and all of us in that group, said was that it wasn't possible to beat the enrage timer with optimized 72 gear. We were 100% correct in that. Having to battle through mechanics like that fight's original incarnation to have to /roll for who Kelsara targeted during her enrage was a terrible fight design. We said we needed 20 seconds to beat the enrage, and low and behold, that's exactly what we needed for a no enrage kill in 72's. Your math didn't apply unless you had a specific group comp of 1/2 Mara and 2/3 Hybrid Snipers, maybe a Sorc DPS. In order to put out the numbers you were saying, you had to be able to cheese every Doom for 0 damage and no puddle running and roll/speed to gain room for extra DPS during Deathmark. /Mootpoint, that fight doesn't exist anymore. RIP difficult content.

 

I never said that people killing bosses is all that matters. If someone parses high on a competitive scale on a dummy, they clearly know what they're doing. I only bring up boss fights in regards to class knowledge when people say "Dummy parsing does not equate to boss fights", l2p, your world record parse means nothing. If you can't execute a rotation on a dummy, you stand no chance of doing so in a boss fight. Can you still kill bosses? Yeah, of course, but you won't be pulling your weight. In regards to optimal tank/healer gearing which is 100% up for debate, there are less stringent requirements and more player skill involved in kills.

 

Not to put down your guild's accomplishments but unless you killed bosses on the first day of release, Brontes by day 2, and Council by Friday, you did not in fact get anywhere close to Top 5 kills. We got world 2nds on 4/5 for both and ended up getting 4th place credit because I didn't UTC timestamp the kills until 6 hours later. We also lawled through the bosses so quickly that we actually had very little idea of what was going on and had to sit down and hash out mechanics during alt runs later in the week. It speaks highly of our guild's skill and flexibility on the fly, with a nod to our high level of gear considering we all were 95%+ minmaxed with the exception of the healers we took in. It also tells me our tanks were optimized well because our healers were in a 72/69 mix and were the weak link in gearing. There is no definitive on tank gearing because every boss fight uses a different ratio of yellow and white damage. Our tests involved bosses that used a 50/50 mix to get the best median value so they don't have to remod on the fly. Our healers pick up the slack on fights that skew one way or the other, mostly melee damage fights for us but there aren't many of those left in endgame. Killing 16man HM Nefra with 9 players isn't anything to really scoff at, it wasn't the most difficult thing we've done and it speaks more to the fight's lack of an enrage than anything, our healer's skill secondary. That said, if the tanks were geared as incorrectly as you're making it out to be they wouldn't be able to survive since as you've noted it's an almost 100% melee damage fight as far as incoming tank damage goes. I got hit by the cleave for 90k when I had to step in by the way, lawl.

 

As a closer since I do not wish to participate in this class discussion any longer since I do not touch my Juggernaut and was asked to do so by our forum banned tank, while "mathematically" Juggernauts take the most damage, with their cooldowns they take by far the least and have the greatest survivability of any of the 3. Adding something in terms of 10-15% Absorb would make them ridiculously overpowered, especially in PvP. They already dominate warzones like Huttball, ACW, and Voidstar. They only reason you don't see more of them in Ranked Arenas is because of the broken as all hell PT hybrid tank/2 Smashfeg/Op healer comp. Juggs are fine tanks, the only thing I don't like about them is that they're so damn slow.

Edited October 18, 2013 by countpopeula

[Templerrr]

Quote: Originally Posted by ArenCordial View Post

Eric,

 

Thank you for posting the 2.5 changes. I think there is a common belief here that combat team does not quite understand the concerns expressed in the Vengeance question. As the writer of the question, I'll do what I can to spell this out. While adding Overwhelm is nice for PvPing, doesn't solve the issues we tried to bring forth.

 

Reliability of Ravage

 

Movement is not an issue only for PvP, but PvE as well in mobile boss fights it is very easy for a boss to get more than 4 meters on you over the course of that 3 second Ravage channel. When that happens we've lost uptime on the boss and are doing 0 dps. The fact of the matter is by its design Ravage puts you in a position where just by using your #1 ability you can set yourself up for downtime and dps loss. So you either break your channel to stay in range or complete it and try to minimize the downtime. No other class can so easily sets themselves with a Catch-22 just by using their dps powers. If the combat team want the Vengeance spec to revolve around Ravage, then Vengeance's Ravage needs to be the most reliable Ravage in the game, That means Vengeance needs to feel they can reliably complete channels in both PvP and PvE.

 

Potential Solutions: Increase Ravage's channel speed by 30-33% and spread the damage out evenly over the ticks rather than backload it. Fast channels mean less likely a stun/mez/knockback will get off and fits better in the Unstoppable window. In PvE this means boss movement and mechanics have a narrower window to effect the class. I think you'll see far less QQing from other class players also because this isn't placing a control effect on their characters, but just improves Ravage's chances of completing a channel.

 

Rampage Proc

 

This was the other half of the question, its simple that Rampage's current proc chances could use a boost, because when you don't get it Rage management is noticeably tougher and our fillers our unimpressive. Here's some important points when considering Rampage vs other abilities that refresh dps abilities.

 

1.) Rampage has the lowest % chance in the game. (30% vs the next lowest of 45%)

2.) Vengeance unlike most spec's does not have a spammable ability to chase a proc. Both of the abilities that can refresh Ravage have not insignificant cooldowns of their own. (9 and 12 seconds for Impale and Shatter respectively)

3.) Ravage has the longest cooldown of any refreshable dps power (30 seconds vs the next longest at 15 seconds, twice as long).

 

Potential Solutions: Increase the proc % to 45%, it will still be tied for the lowest proc chance in the game and Ravage still has the longest cooldown in the game. Also test adding Viscous Throw as an ability that can be proc Rampage since the spec lacks a spammable power. This way once every 20 secs the class gets an improved chance at a proc and under 30% its definitely gets improved chances to give back some added under 30% power the class lost with removing auto-crit Viscous Throws.

 

/sign

[UndyingHadyn]

 

Defense stat is worthless.

 

 

I wanted to support this statement, but from a pvp perspective, when I gear my jug tank, stacking defence is a waste. Many believe it is the first priority, but you sacrifice too much for the poor return. An important key to surviving melee/ranged attacks is knowing when to use Sabre Ward. As you already know, sabre ward grants an increase of 50% defence chance. When you couple that with a generic defence amout, let's say 10%, then attribute all of the Immortal spec's defence rating boosts, It is clear that stacking shield and absorb is more important to prioritize than defence.

[Jedi_Thran_Kuro]

Bottom line: guardian dps in pve is woefully behind other hybrid dps classes. Our abilities hit for less, have longer cooldowns, and unlike many, we have to chase our targets. Our single biggest hit, despite being labeled "uninterruptable" is actually interrupted all the time based on game mechanics - such as knockbacks, stuns, etc. Add to that the lousy proc rate on master strike's refresh, and you get what every pve vigilance guardian already sees: groups generally don't want you, and people presume you're a tank.

 

You told us that guardian dps wasn't meant to be totally gimped as a balance to the belief (I won't call it a fact) that we're more survivable than, say, a sentinel. So, get with the program - hey, maybe even get someone on the team who plays a vigilance guardian primarily - and up our dps significantly. In endgame ops, we are all expected to do our roles, IE: DPS needs to be able to DPS hard. I understand there's sustained dps and burst dps. But this is ridiculous. Even our set bonuses are stupid. I have to use 2 pieces of the sentinels' set bonus to try to maximize my dmg output.

[VitalityPrime]

It's crazy that our class rep has yet to comment on this proposed change. Edited October 18, 2013 by VitalityPrime

[UndyingHadyn]

It's crazy that our class rep has yet to comment on this proposed change.

 

Bah. People get played out man. I've logged on almost everyday since launch, I like swtor, but there comes a point in time, where even hardcores need to shut 'er down. Reminds me of my younger dope days. Sometimes you need a break from the ganj, to rejuvenate the groove. Either way, I'm crazy for sticking around. Winter is coming...I'll be online more than ever. Ridiculous past-time, isn't it?

[VitalityPrime]

Bah. People get played out man. I've logged on almost everyday since launch, I like swtor, but there comes a point in time, where even hardcores need to shut 'er down. Reminds me of my younger dope days. Sometimes you need a break from the ganj, to rejuvenate the groove. Either way, I'm crazy for sticking around. Winter is coming...I'll be online more than ever. Ridiculous past-time, isn't it?

 

It's understandable...but I think the rep should be someone who is around.

 

After all...it's a representative position...not a consultant position.

[UndyingHadyn]

It's understandable...but I think the rep should be someone who is around.

 

After all...it's a representative position...not a consultant position.

 

I rallied for Andrew because I fought against him. He's a good player. Some of his ideas however, seemed a bit overboard. Couple that with his absence...I won't rally him next round lol.

 

The true leaders of your class, display their strength every time they post. On that note, the power is in your hands now isn't it.

[rpeplins]

"Debilitation has been added to the Vigilance skill tree and provides a 50/100% chance to immobilize the target for the duration of Master Strike."

 

Instead of rooting the target, how about letting the guardian or juggernaut move while channeling ravage or master strike.

[Riivan]

"Debilitation has been added to the Vigilance skill tree and provides a 50/100% chance to immobilize the target for the duration of Master Strike."

 

Instead of rooting the target, how about letting the guardian or juggernaut move while channeling ravage or master strike.

 

Because that would actually benefit PVE players as well. We can't have them encroach on Sents and Slingers.

[kennethdale]

It's understandable...but I think the rep should be someone who is around.

 

After all...it's a representative position...not a consultant position.

 

Didn't the position get switched to KBN?

[Riivan]

No since they're not doing any rep stuff till after 2.5 they were going to address it then. If I am not mistaken, KBN didn't want the position anyway.