Jedi Guardian Changes - Game Update 2.5

[ArenCordial]

No since they're not doing any rep stuff till after 2.5 they were going to address it then. If I am not mistaken, KBN didn't want the position anyway.

 

He's got enough going on between being the Sent and Shadow Rep. Guy has got to have some time to play.

[wadecounty]

I think everyone is too focused on Master Strike, and while I understand why, there are other ways to improve the spec while still keeping the same flavor.

 

Everyone complains about the proc chance of Zen Strike along with the only abilities that can proc it being on relatively long cd's themselves, but at the same time, Master Strike comparatively is a significantly more powerful attack than Full Auto, Telekinetic Wave, and High Impact Bolt to name a few of the other specs reliant on a proc for a powerful ability.

 

On the other hand... we are almost the ONLY DPS spec in the game without any surge bonus tied to our abilities.

 

- Watchman gets surge boost on burns and heals for crit burns

- Combat gets Blade Storm and Blade Rush surge boosts

- Focus gets it on EVERYTHING

- TK Sage gets it on Disturbance, TK Wave and Turbulence

- Balance Sage and Shadow gets it on FiB and all their dots

- Infiltration Shadow gets it on Force Breach effects and Project

- SS Gunslinger gets it on Speedshot, Quickdraw and Trickshot

- Sab GS gets it on all AOE

- DF GS and Scoundrel do not get one, but does get energy regen on bleed crits

- Scrapper Scoundrel gets it on Backblast, Tendon Blast, Shoot First and Flechette Round

- Gunnery Commando gets it on Full Auto and Demo Round

- Assault Commando and Vanguard gets it on Plasma Cell, High Impact Bolt, Charged Bolts/Ion Pulse, Incendiary Round and Assault Plastique

- Tactics Vanguard gets it on Stockstrike, Gut and Fire Pulse

 

So yeah, out of the 18 possible DPS specs in the game, we are one of 3 that do not have a surge talent anywhere in our tree, and the other 2 (DF Gunslinger/Scoundrel) are among the highest parsing specs in the game atm, and DO have a benefit for crits in energy regen.

 

My proposal, add a Surge talent to Vigilance that replaces Preparation (an almost entirely useless talent currently) or Gather Strength (a mostly useless talent). 30% surge bonus to Blade Storm and any 1 or 2 of the following: Dispatch, our bleeds, or Master Strike. Personally, I'd like to see it go to Blade Storm, Master Strike and our Bleeds, although that might be a bit too much added damage, maybe KBN or someone could crunch the numbers and see how that comes out.

 

Thoughts? Btw, I'd gladly give up the Master Strike root for this change.

Edited October 20, 2013 by wadecounty

[sainik]

Don't really like the root on MS. Combined with unremitting, this forces a target to eat the full MS, which beats the point about it being a heavily backloaded channeled ability imo. DPS sages would be the worst hit by this, since apart from immaculately timing their CC, they got no escape from a possible 6-7k crit. DPS shadows would be next - and as usual, agents (both ops and snipers) are the least effected because of cleanse and cover respectively.

 

I would have prefered a 30 or 50 % alacrity boost to MS on Zen proc, it would give good burst, benifit PVE as well as PVP and still give good pvp players a chance to avoid the damage, even though its much harder.

 

In general the philosophy seems to be to allow DPS classes to be able to use all their DPS skills in a PVP scenario (root on MS, uncleansable dots for balance, etc), which is not something I totally agree with. The point of channeled abilities and dots is that they can be avoided, otherwise why not make them instant ?

[sainik]

In fact a simple solution for pvp would be to allow MS to apply root only when unremetting is not active. A root while not CC immune, I think, is fair.

[wadecounty]

In fact a simple solution for pvp would be to allow MS to apply root only when unremetting is not active. A root while not CC immune, I think, is fair.

 

Honestly people are overrating this root while being cc immune thing... because here's the thing, they're going to be rooted for 3 seconds following your charge anyways. You only get the root for about 1.5 more seconds than you would normally (3 seconds - 1.5 for GCD = 1.5 of the 3 second ravage), which doesn't make a difference for them eating a full Ravage unless they activated a movement ability, many of which are talented to break roots anyways so it wouldn't matter.

 

Basically, the only benefit this gives compared to Unremitting + Master Strike currently is sorcs force speeding who aren't spec'd for it to break roots and operatives rolling.

[sainik]

many of which are talented to break roots anyways so it wouldn't matter.

 

While its true that a lot of them are talented to break roots, there are whole trees (both the dps shadow and dps sage trees) which do not have a root breaker (well shadows have resilience which has a longer cooldown, and phasewalk which might be useful for other, objective oriented gameplay). But you are right, a better solution might be a more reliable root breaker (like countermeasures/surrender) given to these trees as well. Otherwise, its just not fair, more so because these affected classes (dps shadow/sage) are light armor classes.

[JefferyClark]

While its true that a lot of them are talented to break roots, there are whole trees (both the dps shadow and dps sage trees) which do not have a root breaker (well shadows have resilience which has a longer cooldown, and phasewalk which might be useful for other, objective oriented gameplay). But you are right, a better solution might be a more reliable root breaker (like countermeasures/surrender) given to these trees as well. Otherwise, its just not fair, more so because these affected classes (dps shadow/sage) are light armor classes.

 

Vigil/Veng being one of those specs that doesn't have a root breaker too....

[ArenCordial]

I think everyone is too focused on Master Strike, and while I understand why, there are other ways to improve the spec while still keeping the same flavor.

 

Everyone complains about the proc chance of Zen Strike along with the only abilities that can proc it being on relatively long cd's themselves, but at the same time, Master Strike comparatively is a significantly more powerful attack than Full Auto, Telekinetic Wave, and High Impact Bolt to name a few of the other specs reliant on a proc for a powerful ability.

 

 

To be fair, I think the reason why everyone is so focused on Master Strike is because the devs have the made spec revolve around it.

 

Yes Master Strike is a very hard hitting ability, which is partly why I think the devs are so afraid of improving Zen Strike however there are some very significant downsides to it even compared to the other refreshable abilities. Namely it has the longest cooldown among refreshable abilities and currently the lowest proc chances.

 

Heres a quicklist.

-Pulverize (Annihilation): Refreshes Rupture (15s CD) 33% proc on Viscous Slash (semi-spamable), 66% on Vicious Throw. Lockout 6 seconds.

-Barrage (Arsenal): Refreshes Unloaded (15s CD) and gives 25% damage bonus. 45% proc on Tracer Missile/Power Shot (both spammable). Lockout 6 seconds.

-Prototype Particle Accelerator (Pyro Merc): Refreshes Rail Shot (15s CD) 75% proc on Unload and 45% on Power Shot (spammable). Lockout 6 seconds.

-Prototype Particle Accelerator (Pyro PT): Refreshes Rail Shot (15s CD) 45% on Flame Burst (spammable), 60% on Rocket Punch. Lockout 6 seconds.

-Lethal Takedown (Lethality Sniper): Refreshes and use above 30% Takedown (12s CD) 45% on Cull (9s CD). No lockout.

-Lightning Storm (Lightning Sorc): Refreshed and free cast Chain Lightning (6s CD) 60% Lightning Strike (spammable) and 60% Thundering Blast, 20% on Force Storm (spammable). 10 second Lockout.

-Raze (Madness Sin): Refreshes and free cast of Crushing Darkness (15s CD) with 60% chance on Lightning Charge's Discharge (Stance). Lockout 7.5 seconds.

-Slaughter (Carnage): Refreshes both Viscous Throw to use above 30% and Gore (15s CD) with 45% chance on Ataru Form (stance). Lockout 20 seconds.

 

As you can see all the classes with similar talents have either spammable abilities or proc off a stance. The only exception is Lethal Takedown which has no lockout and refreshes off Cull which a Lethality Sniper will use twice in every rotation.

 

Also only 2 talents have a longer lockout than Zen Strike, that being Lightning Storm by 1 seconds and Slaughter by 11 seconds. Slaughter however refreshes 2 abilities and lets be frank I don't think Carnage needs MORE Gore windows.

 

Long story short. I think the extra damage Master Strike can do over other abilities is more than sufficiently accounted for between

-the lowest proc chances in the game

-3rd longest lockout in the game

-no spammable powers to refresh it

-longest cooldown without a proc by 2x

 

So a little improved proc chances won't change much as I see it.

 

Quite frankly the proc % are only half the problem with the spec. The other half is being able to reliably complete your channel. Master Strike is somewhat unique in that you can set yourself up for a catch-22 just by using it assuming your target is moving. Then you get to decide do I break the channel and chase or complete it and try to minimize downtime.

 

Personally I consider the fact you can screw yourself by just using your #1 dps power, poor design. If the designer continue to want the spec to revolve around Master Strike then Vigilance needs the MOST reliable Master Strike in the game. The Debilitate addition really is just a thoughtless throwaway to solve the problem of Master Strike's reliability issues. Will it help in PvP? Sure in regs. In ranked, I doubt it will do that much. In PvE its worthless.

 

 

On the other hand... we are almost the ONLY DPS spec in the game without any surge bonus tied to our abilities.

 

- Watchman gets surge boost on burns and heals for crit burns

- Combat gets Blade Storm and Blade Rush surge boosts

- Focus gets it on EVERYTHING

- TK Sage gets it on Disturbance, TK Wave and Turbulence

- Balance Sage and Shadow gets it on FiB and all their dots

- Infiltration Shadow gets it on Force Breach effects and Project

- SS Gunslinger gets it on Speedshot, Quickdraw and Trickshot

- Sab GS gets it on all AOE

- DF GS and Scoundrel do not get one, but does get energy regen on bleed crits

- Scrapper Scoundrel gets it on Backblast, Tendon Blast, Shoot First and Flechette Round

- Gunnery Commando gets it on Full Auto and Demo Round

- Assault Commando and Vanguard gets it on Plasma Cell, High Impact Bolt, Charged Bolts/Ion Pulse, Incendiary Round and Assault Plastique

- Tactics Vanguard gets it on Stockstrike, Gut and Fire Pulse

 

So yeah, out of the 18 possible DPS specs in the game, we are one of 3 that do not have a surge talent anywhere in our tree, and the other 2 (DF Gunslinger/Scoundrel) are among the highest parsing specs in the game atm, and DO have a benefit for crits in energy regen.

 

My proposal, add a Surge talent to Vigilance that replaces Preparation (an almost entirely useless talent currently) or Gather Strength (a mostly useless talent). 30% surge bonus to Blade Storm and any 1 or 2 of the following: Dispatch, our bleeds, or Master Strike. Personally, I'd like to see it go to Blade Storm, Master Strike and our Bleeds, although that might be a bit too much added damage, maybe KBN or someone could crunch the numbers and see how that comes out.

 

Thoughts? Btw, I'd gladly give up the Master Strike root for this change.

 

I'd gladly give up the root for this also. Surge talents have been proposed often. Considering that Vigilance design seems to be almost a watered down version of Combat spec it seems like a no brainer. Still there are a lot of ways they could improve the spec. Making our burns something actually worth mentioning would be another. Its not really the how that's the problem at this point. It is convincing the devs of the need of it.

Edited October 21, 2013 by ArenCordial

[JonnyMadDog]

Ey am a proponent of JK GRD Vig deeps, it's, in the opinyon of many, inc. mself, the funnest spec to plae, it's easy to pickup, and is very versatile and viable in both p v e, and p v p, ey've done both, and am proficient in both, so are some others who are the same/similar spec ey know and have seen, in both aspects as well.

 

However, ey see peopl still teasn mself and others in general about Vig JK Grd's in endgam

 

(there is no "mastr clas" peopl, stop w/ wanting only pure clases for deeps, ex: sentls for melee and slingrs for rangd, in yr grps, EVERY SPEC should be able to do well if the plaer behind it is skilled and the team is coordinated enuff, in ANY and ALL aspects, YES some a tad more in some areas then others, but it should be, as it's been said pre-launch, a marginal 5 percnt window, difference, that even if one loaded up on hybrid deeps in ops/ w-zones, they still can win as easily or not, as the opposite),...

 

...and hayt how peopl say they're only tnkers, not deeps, unless "smash"...what is this "smash" peopl say? Ey believe ey've been told it's focus Grd's who rely on sweep alot in p v p, ey'm not sure, just tryn to clarify, ey'm not a smasher in this case, so dunno why am called that.

 

Ey, among many others, am thankful for a stun included w/ mastr strik, but would like to still see some more improvement to JK Grd deeps as Vig, as the devs said, some clases would be getting mroe utility to balance things out, ey'm not asking for, necessarily, or am even sure if this ability would seem "lore"-acceptable by having it w/ r build, but maybe a C-C would give more cause to have r build in grps more, also maybe some buff to somethin, dunno.

 

Ey'm not necessarily sayin this narrow-minded viewpoint is the reason holdn mself back from top-tier content when new, and wrld firsts, but it is 1 reason among several, there's some abuse/libel ey get from meen peopl, and thusly, am not in say, full dredforgd yet, nor even have 1 kel gdragn piece ey should have been in full by 2.4, as am on as long as ey can be nearly every dai n nyt, to be amogn the best, as ey've spent too much time, money, passion, and taken too much abuse here for anything less, but enuff about mself, won't get into why ey spel certain words wrng or not wanting to be in a pRser, at least untill ey do at least 1 remarkable thing w/o one, then will be fine-r w/ jonini a grp's, not that they're required for ops, ey say abolish em or make em built-in, as to make pRses a moot point, also pref not to join a gild (meanin their tag showin/officially), at least untill several scenarios come to pass, but am LF a top tier gild/grp to run w/ n make histry w/ as a member, just not have their tag, mainly, and pref to be told if and when r run is vid recorded and if when and where it's posted and asked permission prior to, that's all. Yaz can read more about mself on mey "j.m.d" thread and some others made.

 

See, Vig based dmg has 3 brns, one can apply all three n see them all on an enemy at the same time for a sec or 2, if throw em off one after another, and 2 of em r able to activate mastr strik which is r best/main attak and deals direct dmg as well as dispatch, these intermixed w/ sundrin strik and sometimes reg attak, focus boost, health boost, some stuns and sweep, should one need to use some of those and/or get a not-great r n g on mastr strik popping off cd, is r rotation, the main difference between this build and others is that r build has no boosts to other builds (inspiration sentls have, sounds like a JK G ability but eh..), nor can deal more then those 3 D o T's, SO EITHER r build, in terms of utility needed, needs more/better D o T's and/or a buff to r direct dmg, which is r main typ of dmg done.

 

Being able to ot in certain circumstances as a deeps build Vig spec is cool, and is some utility, but in serious nitmdoe ops, r build can't do that except maybe a split sec tertiary tnk role, such as beign the deeps to kit rapts in dred pal op, if a grp onyl has 2 tnks and they're busy elsewhere, in which case a deeps that could take a hit (r build switched to tnk form) is ideal for such a situation, but some grp just don't get that, but maily cause it's so rare it's a utility that can be used in tougher ops, r ot'ing is mainly for wzone grding when tnks r elsewhere and dual-queeuing for lower lvl fp pops. But other then that, the only utility r build has otuside of r main direct dmg style of fightn is 3 short brns an, armor breakr, short term stuns, and low lvl/tertiary tnking ability can switch to, that's it rly, so additions to this arsenal is MUCH appreciated by fellow JK Grd Vig-spec's, and mself.

 

Another idea am thinkin of, going back to inspir., wasn't gunna inc. this thought but will anyways now, besides sounding like a Grd ability, dontcha think giving Vig Grds inspir and taking it AWAY from sentls would solve pretty much evrything? Think about it this way, sentls already and would continue to do big numbs, but this would give said more-narrow-minded grps a reason to bring Vig Grds w/ em in ops, they may not do as much dmg total as sentls, but it's marginal and the gam is/should be designd to allow a team of not-on-hi-side of marginal clases/hybrid deeps fillin all deeps roles, to complete a nitmode op, and bringin any pure clases is more of a bonus then a req., WHY does the build which oh so many go to to wannabe top deeps have the ability to boost the entire grp's dmg? Isn't that a bit..off?

Shouldn't the hybrid spec have the ability to boost the grp's dmg to make up for their short side of the 5 percnt margin between pure/hybrid deeps, and thusly, allow more hybrids to be included?

 

Anyways, thx for improvements to hybrid builds and look forward to more and thanks for readn!

Edited October 21, 2013 by JonnyMadDog
Add something.

[KeyboardNinja]

Even Google Translate couldn't decipher that

 

It's JonnyMadDog. Nuf said.

[Jedi_Thran_Kuro]

So, I've now done an ungodly amount of parsing. In vigilance spec, geared in underworld (with a dreadforged implant and a few 78 mods and armorings - belt, bracers, offhand), with a 4-piece set bonus (2 vindicator/2 weaponmaster), and with might stims and the occasional adrenal, I am hitting a pretty reliable 2660-2670 on the operations dummy over a five minute fight. Sometimes I am higher, sometimes a bit lower. My sense is that this makes me a fairly average representative of the class.

 

ISSUES:

 

The immediate problem I see in these parses is the same every time: long dry spells on Master Strike. If Master Strike is procing, my DPS is higher, AND my rotation is smoother. But if MS isn't, then not only is my DPS gimped, but I am also being pushed into a more chaotic non-rotation where I am either looking for a focus generator or looking for something other than strike to attack with. But that is only the most basic issue.

 

As others have pointed out before me, the master strike proc is just too low for a spec that is ENTIRELY built around it, both because the actual chance to proc is low, and because we have only two abilities - which are themselves on long cooldowns - to even buy a chance at a proc.

 

And, when we focus on PVE and raids, additional significant problems with master strike crop up:

 

1. Stuff moves - in fact, most bosses are mobile, whether because they won't sit still or because the fight mechanics require the tanks to move them. This presents a considerable challenge for vigilance guardians that the proposed PVP-informed change will do nothing for.

 

2. Although "uninterruptable," Master Strike is actually interrupted all the time, via stuns, knockbacks, and so on. Now that every NPC and his momma in raids has at least one stun/kb, again, the vigilance guardian's core DPS ability is almost entirely negated.

 

3. Damage is backloaded - sort of an intensifier to points 1 and 2: because we have to stay still as the boss moves away and because the boss will often stun or knock us back before we finish pathing Master Strike, not infrequently we don't get to actually finish the path, and so the utility of the ability and the DPS it actually puts out is reduced even more.

 

So, what to do?

 

RECOMMENDATIONS:

 

1. Raise the proc rate on Master Strike considerably or tie it to all damage-dealing abilities. Our proc rate sucks, and the abilities we have for a chance at the proc are too limited AND on long CDs themselves. Because we are uniquely reliant on this ONE ability for our major dps output, if anything, our proc rate and/or spammability of proc chances ought to be higher than average, not merely average. (keening/dispatch helps, but sorry, it's not a fix for a spec that is built entirely around MS)

 

2. lower the standard cooldown on Master Strike. As noted by others, our CD is among the longest, and we are uniquely reliant on this ability.

 

3. Ditch the 2.5 root, and make Master Strike mobile. Let us move around while it's pathing - this is a change that helps in both PVP AND PVE (hi, remember us PVE Vigilance Guardians? We still play here, though the community wonders why).

 

4. To truly make Master Strike uninterruptable, give us something like the entrench effect that sniper/gunslinger gets, so that we actually get to finish the path.

 

5. Note that of these 4 suggestions, only the first two really affect straight dps. The latter two suggestions would do nothing for my Operations Dummy DPS, but might help to bring my raid dps more in line with the ops dummy dps.

 

6. Remember we are MELEE. So, if the goal is to avoid having DPS guardians be simply unwanted in PVE raids (and this IS the case in some places), our overall DPS needs to be higher because we inherently have less time on target than ranged classes.

 

7. Judge vigilance guardian DPS by the average-to-good player. I know there are some vigilance guardians who post higher on the DPS boards. These guys are exceptional, and their high scores, I would suspect, are just that. I don't think they parse 2900-3000 every time they go in. In other words, their best scores are not representative of the broad character of the class; they are outliers. So, please don't look at a guy posting several hundred dps points higher as your benchmark. Because that's clearly not how it's done for gunslingers, sentinels, etc.

 

8. Please get someone on your combat team to delete his sentinel and focus on playing a DPS Guardian. As it is, I have a difficult time believing that anyone on the combat team plays a PVE vigilance guardian as his primary character, because the way the spec is built now juxtaposed with the "fixes" you have planned for 2.5 does nothing to address the problems causing DPS guardians to be shunned in raids.

 

9. In the end, if you guys really can't get on-board with making guardian DPS a thoroughly viable DPS class, then let players respec their advanced classes. The fact that many DPS guardians would find this attractive should underline what a problem this situation is for us as a class. I would hate to have to pick up an offhand saber and give up my classic single-saber, but I also don't want to have to struggle as a class to find a role in hard mode and nightmare mode endgame PVE.

 

10. Please give us a class representative who actually plays the game actively and participates here. As an advanced class, I would think Guardian presents one of the more challenging to find a good representative for, because we have a tank spec and two dps specs. So, there's a broader range of stuff to know, and to know well. But here, we have a class representative who simply isn't around. And I'm not saying he should be: real life happens and we all have other commitments, and from what I gather above, our rep has gotten bored with the game. Fine, it happens to most of us. But then, most of us are not claiming the mantle of being the primary speaker for every member of a class in this game. The guardian community DESERVES a representative who can and will do the job.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Jedi_Thran_Kuro

[Siorac]

I'd gladly give up the root for this also. Surge talents have been proposed often. Considering that Vigilance design seems to be almost a watered down version of Combat spec it seems like a no brainer.

 

It's more of a mix between a poor man's Watchman and a crap Combat spec.

[JefferyClark]

Something else to remember with the 2.5 change is that it's going to cost 2 skill points that are currently elsewhere. In my build, this means no more crit % increase on Dispatch/Slash from the focus tree, or less likely, cutting out Sundering Throw, which tacks 5 seconds back onto Saber Throw and removes the sunder effect from it. So I have to pick between cutting out the extra 7.5% chance for doing a little burst dps with Dispatch or Slash or something else equally as gimping like saber throw or removing the 2 points from sunder, which is a good focus builder at the start of fights or at the end of a rotation where MS didn't proc ...

 

There just isn't much to take out that doesn't gimp the spec even more by removing it's ability to generate focus or apply a little burst, which you need in pvp. Fights in pve last long enough that focus generation isn't usually an issue, but pvp is constantly moving and making sure you are on the highest priority target (if I'm wailing on a Jugg and a heals respawns and comes into the picture, I'm probably going to switch to the healer).

 

As has been stated many times before, I don't think this change will make too much of a difference in Vig/Veng specs for pvp. It does nothing for pve. Focus/Rage still is able to put out higher numbers and has nearly the same survivability.

Edited October 24, 2013 by JefferyClark

[ol_Ben]

So, a Juggernaut/Guardian will have cc immunity from leap, and with this change ravage/master strike will root the target. Am I the only one who thinks this is a major problem? After every leap the oposing player will have no choise but to eat an entire ravage. Balanced?

 

Wrong, he just needs to CC/pushback the Vigilance Guardian just before the last MS hit as it is today.

[JonnyMadDog]

YESYESYES! to the one poster above mself here, talkn about r build and suggesting stuff, agree 100 percnt w/ yr views, do and have heard/read similar complaints and pRses on dummis, and like yr reccommendations.

 

R build ey think would benefit from having inspir taken away from sentls and given to r build, but then read that's likely out/not needed as ey was told how sentls are being nrfed a bit, only need 1 in a grp now not several, as each inspir is op-wide, among other things,...

 

BUT...a nrf to sentls doesn't essentially get more Vig Grds into nitmode ops/etc., r build needs a buff or two, either or a combo of (pref a combo of):

 

give r build inspir, that'd be cool, still, plus it sounds like a Grd ability,...

 

give r build a c-c stun (just got temporary ones atm),...

 

give r build a boost to dmg from multiple abilities, as postr above suggested,...

 

increase the pop chance (that what "proc" means?) of mastr strik and/or the other abilities that proc it, overhed n plas strike/brand,...

 

give another ability/more abilities the abiltiy to proc it as well,...

 

increase the dmg to non-mastr strik attacks,...

 

add more brns/opportunity for more brns from r 3 brning/D-o-T attaks,...

 

root all non-chmpion/bos enemies in p v E w/ mastr strik as well, not just a p v P ability,...

 

Among other things, some of which the aforementioned above postr already said, and don't wanna reiterate any more, like allowing a longer range on mastr strik/full uninterruptability.

 

Ey 've been (on mey main) a Vig-JK Grd since pre-launch and still plae it n like it, and support it's position, so ey'd like to throw mey "hood" into the mix for clas rep for Vig Grds, at least take this post/these ideas into acc., yeah it seems not just some plaers believe in not invitin r build/any bybrid build's deeps, into their ops grps, but the rep/the devs' combat team aren't big on it either, unfortunatly...

 

Hey, maybe w'll all be surprised and more is to come and r build will be bettr sometime...if it's not in the works already tho, plz read this thread/post devs.

 

Thanls for readn!

[Keleus]

Um, that's it? That's all that's being changed? I mean, I like it, I think the whole thing with the root with Master Strike is freaking baller, since it'll work in PVE too, but what about our harsh as hell PVE dependence on procs? What about how horribly lackluster Plasmabrand is?

 

Like really Bioware, we're paying you here, do something for us damn it XD lol

[Keleus]

So, I've now done an ungodly amount of parsing. In vigilance spec, geared in underworld (with a dreadforged implant and a few 78 mods and armorings - belt, bracers, offhand), with a 4-piece set bonus (2 vindicator/2 weaponmaster), and with might stims and the occasional adrenal, I am hitting a pretty reliable 2660-2670 on the operations dummy over a five minute fight. Sometimes I am higher, sometimes a bit lower. My sense is that this makes me a fairly average representative of the class.

 

ISSUES:

 

The immediate problem I see in these parses is the same every time: long dry spells on Master Strike. If Master Strike is procing, my DPS is higher, AND my rotation is smoother. But if MS isn't, then not only is my DPS gimped, but I am also being pushed into a more chaotic non-rotation where I am either looking for a focus generator or looking for something other than strike to attack with. But that is only the most basic issue.

 

As others have pointed out before me, the master strike proc is just too low for a spec that is ENTIRELY built around it, both because the actual chance to proc is low, and because we have only two abilities - which are themselves on long cooldowns - to even buy a chance at a proc.

 

And, when we focus on PVE and raids, additional significant problems with master strike crop up:

 

1. Stuff moves - in fact, most bosses are mobile, whether because they won't sit still or because the fight mechanics require the tanks to move them. This presents a considerable challenge for vigilance guardians that the proposed PVP-informed change will do nothing for.

 

2. Although "uninterruptable," Master Strike is actually interrupted all the time, via stuns, knockbacks, and so on. Now that every NPC and his momma in raids has at least one stun/kb, again, the vigilance guardian's core DPS ability is almost entirely negated.

 

3. Damage is backloaded - sort of an intensifier to points 1 and 2: because we have to stay still as the boss moves away and because the boss will often stun or knock us back before we finish pathing Master Strike, not infrequently we don't get to actually finish the path, and so the utility of the ability and the DPS it actually puts out is reduced even more.

 

So, what to do?

 

RECOMMENDATIONS:

 

1. Raise the proc rate on Master Strike considerably or tie it to all damage-dealing abilities. Our proc rate sucks, and the abilities we have for a chance at the proc are too limited AND on long CDs themselves. Because we are uniquely reliant on this ONE ability for our major dps output, if anything, our proc rate and/or spammability of proc chances ought to be higher than average, not merely average. (keening/dispatch helps, but sorry, it's not a fix for a spec that is built entirely around MS)

 

2. lower the standard cooldown on Master Strike. As noted by others, our CD is among the longest, and we are uniquely reliant on this ability.

 

3. Ditch the 2.5 root, and make Master Strike mobile. Let us move around while it's pathing - this is a change that helps in both PVP AND PVE (hi, remember us PVE Vigilance Guardians? We still play here, though the community wonders why).

 

4. To truly make Master Strike uninterruptable, give us something like the entrench effect that sniper/gunslinger gets, so that we actually get to finish the path.

 

5. Note that of these 4 suggestions, only the first two really affect straight dps. The latter two suggestions would do nothing for my Operations Dummy DPS, but might help to bring my raid dps more in line with the ops dummy dps.

 

6. Remember we are MELEE. So, if the goal is to avoid having DPS guardians be simply unwanted in PVE raids (and this IS the case in some places), our overall DPS needs to be higher because we inherently have less time on target than ranged classes.

 

7. Judge vigilance guardian DPS by the average-to-good player. I know there are some vigilance guardians who post higher on the DPS boards. These guys are exceptional, and their high scores, I would suspect, are just that. I don't think they parse 2900-3000 every time they go in. In other words, their best scores are not representative of the broad character of the class; they are outliers. So, please don't look at a guy posting several hundred dps points higher as your benchmark. Because that's clearly not how it's done for gunslingers, sentinels, etc.

 

8. Please get someone on your combat team to delete his sentinel and focus on playing a DPS Guardian. As it is, I have a difficult time believing that anyone on the combat team plays a PVE vigilance guardian as his primary character, because the way the spec is built now juxtaposed with the "fixes" you have planned for 2.5 does nothing to address the problems causing DPS guardians to be shunned in raids.

 

9. In the end, if you guys really can't get on-board with making guardian DPS a thoroughly viable DPS class, then let players respec their advanced classes. The fact that many DPS guardians would find this attractive should underline what a problem this situation is for us as a class. I would hate to have to pick up an offhand saber and give up my classic single-saber, but I also don't want to have to struggle as a class to find a role in hard mode and nightmare mode endgame PVE.

 

10. Please give us a class representative who actually plays the game actively and participates here. As an advanced class, I would think Guardian presents one of the more challenging to find a good representative for, because we have a tank spec and two dps specs. So, there's a broader range of stuff to know, and to know well. But here, we have a class representative who simply isn't around. And I'm not saying he should be: real life happens and we all have other commitments, and from what I gather above, our rep has gotten bored with the game. Fine, it happens to most of us. But then, most of us are not claiming the mantle of being the primary speaker for every member of a class in this game. The guardian community DESERVES a representative who can and will do the job.

 

This guy should be given a medal and possibly a job at BW.

[volander]

Here part of KBN Combat/Carnage guide:

 

 

Spec

 

The optimal spec for a combat sentinel is 5/36/5. Two of the points in Focus (specifically, Swelling Winds) have no effect on the single-target rotation, and can thus be floated to any of the trees. I like to buff the AoE for situations where it is necessary (especially trash pulls), and since there isn't much else within reach that is compelling, we may as well go that route

 

How do you see the Debilitation/Overwhelm is not taken at all ...

 

I want to point out a few good ideas of which I read in the section devoted to the future balance in 2.5:

- Reduce the number of stacks for GatherStrenght/PooledHatred to 3 and affect only BladeStorm/ForceScream SaberThrow increasing the damage by 10% per stack, or wold be nice to GS/PH worked on Alacrity, reducing channeling MS/Ravage for a second(and ForceChock/Stasis).

- Single Saber Mastery must reduce the cooldown by 5 seconds for MS/Ravage, making Ving/Veng on par with the rest of DPS classes

- Remove consum rage with Fokused Defense/Deafening Defense

- I especially liked the idea of ​​giving Taunt debuff like a Pacify/Obfuscate

Well, personally, I would still like to have CloseQuarters instead of absolutely useless Preparation/SeethingHatred and bonus damage to bleeding targets.

 

They say that VigVeng DPS behind by 7%, but I think is abyss between the Combat/Carnage and VigVeng at least judging by the pvp.

[AndrewanCyabos]

I usually don't speak much on the Forums, I'm more of an In-game guy, however I have seen some of my suggestions roaming around on here with other people. I do think that it is pretty safe to say that those of us who are primarily DPS Guards/Jugs have become a closer knit community than most classes in that we all have a common goal:

 

Let this iconic figure from the SW universe become comparable to the other DPS classes in that we aren't always near the bottom. I have read a few good ideas in this thread, most notably was the addition of Raid-wide utility of combat focus to add alacrity. Seeing the examples provided and knowing that in my personal raid team, I could swap back to my Guardian and shift a few people back to the spots they really excel in, I love that idea. Kudos to the third degree. Below are some more ideas I would like passed onto the Theorycrafters and Devs. I have composed the ideas of myself and a few other guardians on Ebon Hawk.

 

NOTE: all this assumes the Maximum amount of skill points put into each ability and If it is not mentioned, then it remains the same in the tree as is.

 

1. RNG buff for Zen Strike talent, Hands down. This is one of the chief reasons that Vig/Veng can't really be "consistent" in parses or Ops. The variant of DPS output is too great from one encounter to the next.

 

 

Perseverance 2/2: Increases your Strength to 9%

 

Shien Deflect (Replaces Gather Strength) 2/2: Focused Defense no longer costs any focus. Combat Focus now gives 6 focus, and gives 2 more over 2 seconds.

(Focused defense is changed so that instead of being healed every time you are attacked it becomes a passive heal over time.

(This is a big one. Vig/Veng are penalized way too much for pulling agro, moreover than any other class in the game. Period. We need a threat drop that wont tear our DPS to shreds.)

 

Shien Form 1/1: Increases all damage dealt by 6 percent as well as supplying a 15 percent passive in combat speed boost.

(Again, give us the same as every other melee DPS class. Pre 2.0 we had the speed boost, and they took it from us [if I remember correctly.])

 

Unremitting 2/2: Force Leap and Guardian Leap grant one stack of unremitting,and is consumed when Master Strike is active, making the Guardian immune to stuns, slows, pushes, and other physics or other related attacks for the duration of the Master Strike. Stacks two times.

(This change to Unremitting I believe is nice in setting JGs/jugs apart, and give us that little edge.

 

Force Rush 2/2: Overhead Slash and Plasma Brand have a 50% chance to grant Force Rush, which increases Blade Storm Critical Chance by X percent. This Buff is not consumed on use. Lasts 15 seconds. Stacks twice.

(This is one of the changes that I suggested from Rydarus's "Superbuff" guide. This one is tricky, as it can make the class OP. The Crit chance should be higher than 50% but not as high as 100%. I'd probably say 60% like it was in pre2.0-that way we still need some crit and without proper gearing this wont become the FOTM peoples complaint to make the spec OP.)

 

Commanding Awe 2/2: AOE damage reduction by 20 percent and Direct Damage Reduction by 4 percent. Force Leap gives the target a debuff to heals received.

(Debuffs tend to be one of the Guard/Juggs best utilities. Let us be a little better at it, although this would effect would be primarily for PVP with a bit of use in PVE.)

 

Keening 3/3: Increases the Damage dealt by your burning effects by 12 percent (Up from 9). Dispatch critical chance is increased by 25 percent

 

Sundering Throw 2/2: Reduces the required range for Saber Throw to 0 meters and lowers its cool down by 5 seconds. Additionally, Saber throw has a 100% chance to apply armor reduction to the target.

 

Plasma Brand 1/1: same as before, burns for 9 seconds instead and has a 9 second cool down. Make damage for burn same as 12 seconds but condensed, or make it do more per burn. It is IMPERATIVE that the dots remain the same damage and there are the same amount, but they tick faster.

(This one is almost common sense. The Devs jacked up our priority list in 2.0 to compensate the giant "buff" we received.)

 

Advancement (Replaces Preparation)2/2: Your connection to the force gives you the strength to push onward, making Master Strike hit any target in melee range, and Master Strike can continue casting unless the target moves past 30 meters. After Master Strike, you are granted Advancement, which grants the guardian a 30 percent speed boost for 5 seconds to allow them to close the gap.

(This is a fun utility talent that would help Vig out considerably with MS problems. Vig is also one of the most range constricted specs in game atm.)

 

Now for the big one. My compatriots and I are concerned that this pushes past the OP level, which is why we are asking for help. This would be a fantastic addition to the JG rotation and would bring the class up quite a bit by itself. It also reduces the need to buff the RNG for the class as well.

 

Zen Strike 3/3: Overhead Slash, Plasma Brand generate 1 stack of Zen Strike, which reduces the Master Strike Cooldown time by 5 seconds. Stacks up to 3 times to a maximum of a 15 second Master Strike cooldown reduction.

Master Strike also has a 30 percent chance to proc Zen Master, which grants 25 percent armor penetration for your next Master Strike. The Zen Master effect can only occur every 20 seconds.

 

Master Strike is the bread and butter of Vigilance (And really all DPS knights/SWs) but in reality all the other specs could get by just fine if MS was gone. Watchman has their burns that auto crit with Zen, Combat has the auto crit-Arpen BS, Focus has its sweeps. So these talents will put MS up to the priority it should be for the spec.

 

And one last change I would suggest to the Devs. Change the set bonus on the Vindicator gear. Make the boost to MS from the weaponmaster set a static 2 pc bonus for ALL knight DPS gear. Then let the 4 pc bonuses remain the same for the classes respectively. Before 2.0 the Guardian bonus for Saber throw was nice due to the fact it gave us another focus builder and some range. In the 2.0 patch Sents gained TST with a built-in range of 0 meters, as well as hitting EVERY target between(and past) the sent and its target for 30 meters. To me this is broken. They took a guardian ability, made it better and gave it to sentinels. So, in my opinion, let the JG ST have the armor debuff attached to it, but it only hits one target. Sentinels TST remains the same, allowing them to have a higher DPS count due to striking more targets.

Edited October 25, 2013 by AndrewanCyabos

[JonnyMadDog]

More great ideas, like 'em! Thx for sharin' 'em.

 

Do like the op-wide combat focus, when everyone blows their energy pools at the start of a bos fight that is big on deeps, they can get like all of it back to either hold for a bit after said big rush, or throw another barrage of big numbers at the enemy, particularly in brn phases as well, such as titn 6/dred pal council-like ones where tnking is no longer a factor and the deeps need to push big nubmers and healers need to heal thru pulse/op-wide, unavoidable dmg.

 

Keep it up. Oh, and, it seems there's no shortage of candidates for futur/next JK Grd clas rep/s .

[Riivan]

No to the alacrity buff. I don't know why people have such a hard on for a raid-wide alacrity buff. Give us something more useful or more in line with our class. I'd rather we either have a defensive ability to match our class or an offensive one we could actually benefit from.

 

The RNG should be addressed. Maybe make it similar to Watchmen so that we have an ability we can spam if needed.

 

I'd need to spreadsheet it to see if boosting Perseverance further would be the best way to go. My gut reaction is to leave the talent as it is, it is already pretty powerful and we can make gains elsewhere like by tweaking ability damage.

 

Gathered Strength is a pvp talent and I wouldn't want to gimp our pvp to gain a pve buff even if it were needed. Focused Defense should just inherently cost nothing no talent spending necessary.

 

Shien Form already operates like this unless I missed something while I was tanking and playing Sentinel.

 

I am not sold on your change to Unremitting. It doesn't seem necessary in light of 2.5 changes we know about.

 

I don't understand why with 2 points it is only a 50% chance? This change doesn't seem necessary. Inc the crit chance to 60 sure. But reducing our chance to stack and making it something you build up, not necessary.

 

I'd rather keep my 4% all around dmg reduction (maybe bump it to 5% so you get an even 20%) and with the Focused Defense change the talent as is becomes perfect for when AOE dmg happens.

 

No real thoughts on Keening. It's a numbers tweaking thing. Just have to make sure that this in conjunction with other changes doesn't throw things out of balance.

 

I understand why you want the Sundering Throw changes, I just don't see it happening.

 

It was a buff that we received but with any changes you need to tweak here and there. No class is perfect. Plasma needs some rethinking to make it worthy of the top tier. You may have something here.

 

Preparation I suspect is a pvp skill and I probably wouldn't want to take that away. I'd rather have MS be usable on the move not sure where you'd put it.

 

Mostly good suggestions and something for people to chew on. I just really do not like the alacrity buff thing. Never understood that one.

[Keleus]

I like those suggestions, but if I may, from my own experience, throw a few out there that will really help us out:

 

1) Buff the damage that Plasmabrand does. Not the DoT, but the actual hit itself. On top of this, make it that it refreshes all burns on the target and increases all Elemental damage done by all allies within the ops group by 3% for the duration of the burn.

 

2) Force Rush is actually fine as is minus one little thing; In addition to making Bladestorm an instant crit, let's make it ALSO increase Critical Strike Damage by 50%. That'll be a lovely buff imho.

 

3) I SUPER LOVE the idea proposed for giving MS 25% armor penetration built into Zen Strike, that's baller.

 

4) Shien Form can have a second offshoot of something built into it in lieu of something else being replaced, where we gain 15% alacrity whenever a critical strike lands. lasts for 15 seconds.

 

EDIT* Alacrity is useful for healers and ranged dps, and even Vanguards I think. It's not a useless stat, and the buff isn't so much for us as it is for everyone else around us. It would be very handy to have around methinks.

Edited October 26, 2013 by Keleus

[Creslan]

Idea for Guardian ability

 

Battle Meditation- Only useable in Shien and Shi-Cho form, A toggle ability similar to guard that increases the damage or/and healing done by both the guardian and the person he is Meditating with by 5%, while reducing threat. Not useable in Soresu Form. It does not do anyting a normal guard does except reduce the threat of both targets by a very small amount.

 

I stole the name from KOTOR, but call it what you want. Increases the dmg of the guardian and 1 other by 5% as long as they are within 30 meters of each other can't use it in tank(soresu) stance or on a tank in a tank stance. That is something I would like to see maybe. (Idea similar to the Captain in LOTRO and Blade Brother ability, but not as powerful). This could be something they add when they increase the level cap or just down the road aways.

 

I posted this in a different thread, but would give us some much needed utility in a raid setting, would increase our dmg and 1 other person's damage or could be used to provide a small buff to a healer on heal intensive fights.

 

 

Concering 2.5,

Force Rush--- I would like to see 2 small tweaks to it, 1.) Make the buff a charge and each charge is 50% non stacking crit buff (example: it will stack to 2 charges like now, however, it would only give 50% per stack, the crit % doesn't stack) so using blade storm would consume 1 charge and increase the crit of that blade storm by 50%,. 2.) Let dispatch be effected by the buff and consume 1 charge, similar to pre 2.0. this would buff our keening dispatch, remove dispatch from giving the buff however.

 

Zen strike- let overhead give a 45% chance and plasma brand give a 60% chance. This would be a chance consistent with other "chance" abilities (commando with curtain of fire, no cool down on reset ability, 45% chance and sage Tidal force 60% chance on an ability with no cool down and 9 sec cool down)

 

DPS wise, that would be great for 2.5 for vigilance.

Edited October 26, 2013 by Creslan

[Keleus]

Idea for Guardian ability

 

Battle Meditation- Only useable in Shien and Shi-Cho form, A toggle ability similar to guard that increases the damage or/and healing done by both the guardian and the person he is Meditating with by 5%, while reducing threat. Not useable in Soresu Form. It does not do anyting a normal guard does except reduce the threat of both targets by a very small amount.

 

I stole the name from KOTOR, but call it what you want. Increases the dmg of the guardian and 1 other by 5% as long as they are within 30 meters of each other can't use it in tank(soresu) stance or on a tank in a tank stance. That is something I would like to see maybe. (Idea similar to the Captain in LOTRO and Blade Brother ability, but not as powerful). This could be something they add when they increase the level cap or just down the road aways.

 

I posted this in a different thread, but would give us some much needed utility in a raid setting, would increase our dmg and 1 other person's damage or could be used to provide a small buff to a healer on heal intensive fights.

 

 

Concering 2.5,

Force Rush--- I would like to see 2 small tweaks to it, 1.) Make the buff a charge and each charge is 50% non stacking crit buff (example: it will stack to 2 charges like now, however, it would only give 50% per stack, the crit % doesn't stack) so using blade storm would consume 1 charge and increase the crit of that blade storm by 50%,. 2.) Let dispatch be effected by the buff and consume 1 charge, similar to pre 2.0. this would buff our keening dispatch, remove dispatch from giving the buff however.

 

Zen strike- let overhead give a 45% chance and plasma brand give a 60% chance. This would be a chance consistent with other "chance" abilities (commando with curtain of fire, no cool down on reset ability, 45% chance and sage Tidal force 60% chance on an ability with no cool down and 9 sec cool down)

 

DPS wise, that would be great for 2.5 for vigilance.

 

That's.......That's so beautiful T_T

 

EDIT* The Battle Meditation part that is.

Edited October 26, 2013 by Keleus

[Riivan]

I remain unconvinced on the alacrity buff. If someone wants to explain to me why this would be a good thing I am all ears. As I see it, the bump to alacrity will just result in a strike until something comes off CD.

 

The meditate thing is kind of a cool idea though I doubt they'd go for it or how you'd balance it. But the thought behind it is more in line with what a guard is. SWtOR could use a little more LotRO influence.