No kidding 'eh? Problem is, that there are too many fluff-tards that abhor pvp and still drool over the cartel market. Even (pot5) for example, the percentage of pvp'ers vs the total server population that actually que up is incredibly small.

Well, don't stop believing there will be changes, for there one day will. Problem is with these developers, is they'll release a major patch ( in a year ), that totally buffs guards/jugs and the result will be endless qq from anyone who doesn't play one. The probable effect will be akin to the current arena perceptions of "oh great, we have a dps jug on our team... He'll be focused first", but in reverse.... " jugs are so OP now, glad we have one". Juggernaut's attacks non-crit simply don't do enough damage against the huge health pools, coupled with the strength of healing. Alas, perhaps we are not to become the leaders of the arenas, but our class strengths need to replace our lack of functionality and damage potential. In other words, we can taunt and apply pressure when not focused first. In the vein of ridiculous abilities that other classes use to escape focus fire ( something that jugs cannot do ), perhaps the devs need to tweak saber reflect. Other classes have immunities and stealth, perhaps we should examine different ways for how our 3 second cleave repellant could be improved. Also, 30% aoe dr needs to be removed from game, unless they enable each AC the ability to feat into it, accessible to ONE tree per class. Period. The main fear I have is that Bioware has been displaying shoddy discourse with the players regarding our classes and especially in pvp. Have you ever seen the developers on twitch streams or video? They speak and look like the biggest geek ******* I've ever seen. What could anyone possible expect from a group of arsehats like that? The changes will come but they will be either redundant like the ravage/ms root, or completely overthetop. Fact is all, ALL Bioware cares about is firstly The Cartel Market (which sadly has ruined the game), and secondly the galactic star fighter. Improvements to classes or improving pvp is the last concern, for the devs have displayed that they do not possess the wherewithal to address them on practical terms.

k, well thanks for coming out and expressing some generic views and random thoughts. As time goes on, DPS Juggernauts, in arenas, are becoming the weakest link in the "yolo que" food chain. It's common knowledge more now than ever, for even the hordes of "smash complainers" have been subdued by the abundance of fact; smash jugs die fast. We have no instant "get out of jail" cards up our sleeves. It has always been this way, but smaller arena battlefields have amplified our weaknesses ten-fold. If you decide to tank, you'll enjoy more action on the battlefield, per say, but unless you're up against in-experienced opponents, you'll be taking dirt-naps as soon as you leave the rez pad. Regular casual pvp play? Oh yeah, you'll do fine with a jug, and you'll also have alot of fun leveling it up.

I think the biggest problem with Jug trees, is how our abilities are restricted to certain forms. There are no true synergies that we jug tank pvp'ers can combine like the sins and pt's can. We used to have more options like these pre-2.0, but if you ever discover the reasons why the devs borked us up like they have, please let the rest of us know... It is because of these restrictions that we begin to see the disparities in arenas. It is common to see "tank sins and tank pt's" putting up exceptional dps values, as well as great protection potential. Granted these numbers are the result of accomplished player skills, but none of us are disputing that obvious factor.. One point I'd like to make, is that when I actually have a talented healer on my team, Shii-Cho spec in Soresu form outperforms "dps sintanks, and pt hybrids". Very important to note...I'm speaking about value potentials, and not about how well that arrangement works against good teams that know better than to not focus my arse down. Pure 78 geared/tank specced jug dps, compared to tank specced sins and pt's, is a value comparison I cannot provide. If you take a single main boss, hitting a single tank scenario, and compare the parses from the same bosses, from similar geared advanced classes, that is info I would like to see. Only in this isolated scenario could we begin to appreciate our "retaliation" values, and obviously the increased crit chance should pay off over a long fight encounter. The crossover to pvp isn't as rosy, for the PVE intended functionality of the jug class, pales in comparison to the inherent class traits of Assassins in particular. I'm not going to harp about PT mechanics, for I haven't played my PT in almost a year. The point is, jugs need the moon and the stars to line up, so our idiot opposition will continue to hurt themselves when saberward is up. It's ridiculous how saberward at times does more damage than our attacks can ( Tank Spec ). One solution to the ranged dps application dilemas, could be to compliment our force push damage, with an internal damage over time. I won't stop trying to convince you guys that this improvement to our class should be taken seriously. Now, I HIGHLY doubt bioware will accept such a suggestion from us players, but I really need you guys to investigate the potential. I need you guys to continue exploring the possibilities, and presenting to Musco, how a force push DOT could become a staple in our dps rotation. I know, force push has its obvious strategic applications, but in many encounters, it could/should be treated as one of our heavier hitting abilities.

Good. You can carry the torch then. My work is preventing me from logging in worse than ever before. I'm not quitting, just won't be playing as much at all. You'll have a tough fight ahead of you, with bioware's borked class perceptions. It's not only jugs who suffer from their un-informed indifference, but changes will eventually be made. Remember to focus on enhanced mechanics for solutions in the Rage and Vengeance trees, as well as concise requests asking for increased damage potential in the Immortal tree. I'm confident you're already aware of the reasons why i say that. Give 'em hell juggers. UNDYING OUT.

Yer all fukkin drunk. Wait a sec, you're all pve'ers, my apologies. Marb touched on the problem briefly by pointing out that some of our damage relies on being attacked. Even then the dps is bad, especially in pvp. Please drop this "let's focus on threat enhancement" crap, and instead focus on damage potential. I'm unashamed to admit I was the first to say that retaliation should be hitting a lot harder than it is. I think that's a great place to start developing discussions and theorycrafting. Immortal dps is BAD my friends, make NO mistake.

Having control of offencive and defensive abilities, is what determines good pvp. The problem with swtor, is there are too many passives. Passive defensive traits are nothing more than bioware's futile attempts at last-minute balancing attempts. In reality they have no purpose unless each class can sacrifice damage potential to attain them. Take a look at 30%AOE damage reduction. That there is the most obvious example of bio-fail class mechanics. 30% mitigation is huge...HUGE, but only certain classes get access to it. Look at the pvp leaderboards, you'll see the percentage of successful classes, are the ones who possess this free and automatic survivabilty. That's just one example. Now you are saying that players all moan for moar, well yeah, there are ****tonnes of degenerates that cry, but there are also boatloads more that do flock to unbalanced classes. Abusing imbalances or class mechanics to get a win is like a disease for many others as well. Look at the pvp forums, it's filled with crybabys throwing out ultimatums, or stroking their e-peens. Juggernaut's weaknesses have only become more apparent due to arenas, but have always been there. Anyone who's been around the block, knows how easy it is to focus one of us down. It's ok, jugs strut around on the battlefield like the boss, everywhere we go. People hate us because we're kool lol. At any rate, people know that our class is underpowered compared to many others in game. Achieving victory with your jug means more than achieving victory with a different class (providing low levels of self-respect lol). Same respect goes to the dps operatives I've seen in the past. I've seen them on my team, I'll give them a nod, see what kind of hell we can unleash together. Others would undoubtedly as you suggest, start crying and complaining that the match was already lost.

You have a point there. We jugs couldn't have one without the other. It's in our nature to fight over who's the bauwz. LoooL, have a good one bud.

Not at all really. It's about dealing with "self-righteous pve pretentiousness", and having a bit of fun with it. This thread was dead anyways. What would you do if someone was trying to invalidate you? lol it's really childish to be truthful, and it's always a matter of power. I'd watch what you say when isolating my quotes. Picking a fight with me isn't in your best interests. Go back to this thread's popularity opinion soirée, or get back to compiling jug ideas, hmm? At any rate, happy holidays everyone. We'll hash out our jug stuff in the new year.

WHOA MY PERCEPTION IS MISCONSTRUED? Assuming judgmental positions is silly, don't you think? There is nothing wrong with refusing to pvp, I don't hold that against anyone. It doesn't matter what it is you do, for I invite all valid jug comments from everybody. My respect is hard-earned, and only a few have it. What is it about pve dps gameplay that you feel places yourself on a higher mantle than I? It is you that are displaying the traits of a closed mind. I make no mistake where my strengths are, and I embrace feedback from anyone. Pve is you're line of work? fine. Compile your list of issues, and then let's compare notes at the end of the day. You're a fool for making posts like this, you should instead try to organize the guard threads. Like I said, quit stumbling around here like a blind man in the dark. Get back to work on your guard forums and drum up some solid resources. You aren't powerful enough to challenge my status here. It's a fight you will lose my friend.

So true. Thinking about that actually, doesn't it reveal and scare you to realize the mentality of the player base? Bioware prefers to cater to the thousands of people who will pay to ride a hoth kangaroo, and spam emotes in flash points? Perhaps this game is already full of fail, because of the idiots who support the cartel..I've been delusional thinking they might one day care about pvp.

Well the thing is, bioware has indeed produced some nice additional content. I'm speaking in regards to graphics, terrain, etc....they just need to reevaluate their priorities on a small level. It's true, pve pays the bills, but good pvp sustains a game, period.

Hi. My jug is the prettiest sith sluut in the galaxy. She uses the force to jackhammer her victim's shafts at incredibly fast and powerful speeds into her black evil hole. The end result is either broken bones, or "death by sith sex".

You definitely will have to fall in love with the class to sustain it. This fact is why people are so strong and vehement about the class' performance. Many of us won't give up the fight to overcome the concerns of the class and will keep fighting to see improvements. Assassins specced properly as tank hybrid, equipped with blended dps gear, will hit like vengeance can, yet retain the survivability of an Immortal jug. Hands down, in pvp, assassins have a better blend of survivability and damage potential.

No, wait a sec. Revisit the idea I posted above. Enable a cap on the group size to four. Everyone regardless of faction is red to you outside of your group. Said group could que for warzones or arenas.... The possibilities are delicious.