Shadow Top Three Answers

[ekimmak]

My opinions on the changes.

 

The self healing looks like it could be more costly than the DR buffs its getting in return, but I really wouldn't know. The only times my guild has ever had me do something other than off tanking, was tanking adds in Toborro's Courtyard, where they show up infrequently enough that I can use a cooldown on each phase (relic, deflection, overload sabre). The DPS would cut down at least one droid before my cooldown expired, making it much easier to tank the second. So, my experience as a tank is not expansive.

 

I have much better experience with deception, and I think they kind of skimmed over our concerns. Ah, well. They'll have to fix something eventually.

 

As for madness... yeah, not really impressed. Making the buffs difficult to cleanse isn't going to change much, because so few people could cleanse them in the first place. Sages and Sorcerors have been mostly chased out of PVP, so the DoTs are already sticking around for most, if not full duration.

 

One thing: could it be worth considering to make it so that dark charge procs heal the assassin during overload sabre? Otherwise, might as well take the 100% healing boost from the skill, Dark charge was the only one that actually healed.

[pandelume]

I think its the wrong goal to remove differentiation in order to make all 3 tanking classes take the same healing, same level of spike damage.

 

You should manage to do that without squashing the uniqueness of each tanking class.

Edited October 4, 2013 by pandelume

[DarthSylar]

Our current plans for the 2.5 update include some improvements for Infiltration/Deception and Balance/Madness Shadows/Assassins. Double Strike/Thrash, Shadow Strike/Maul, Whirling Blow/Lacerate, and Clairvoyant Strike/Voltaic Slash will all see slight damage increases (as always, this glimpse of information is subject to change before being released). Effectively, this will increase damage across the board for Shadows/Assassins, especially Infiltration/Deception.

 

I'll take this mechanic over nothing, but I worry that the buff in melee damage will be too small to be effective in PvE in order to maintain PvP balance. Don't get me wrong, that makes sense, but if that happens, it leaves the PvE crowd without a fix.

 

For the most part, the Low Slash -> Shadow Strike/Maul combo is not meant to be used rotationally in PvE – especially when a companion or another player is tanking for the Shadow/Assassin. We may consider increasing the chance to trigger Infiltration Tactics/Duplicity, but it might come at the cost of increasing the rate limit a bit. After the damage increases arrive in 2.5, we will keep our eye on Shadow/Assassin damage dealers to see if they need additional help to make them desirable group members for top-tier PvE content. If so, we will continue to improve them until they become viable contributors.[/color]

 

And this is where I think Bioware dropped the ball. Simply decreasing the cost of Low Slash to a number below the cost of Voltaic Strike would increase sustained damage in PvE and have very little effect in PvP. Why? Because since PvP encounters are much shorter, resource management isn't nearly as big of an issue as in PvE. This would allow us to sub more Mauls in our rotation without killing our force with the use of Low Slash.

 

An added bonus would be if Low Slash proc'd voltage, which shouldn't be over powered due to the long cooldown.

[helpmewin]

I don't know....8% DR and almost killed SH. Shadow will be worst in DR and worst in SH but best in defence and DMG/threat.Mb for PvE this is better but for PvP this is worster than been. This decision is +100 to guardian tank to be more topical in PvP. So shadow tank in 2.5 will be only for NWZ randoms. Sad. Edited October 3, 2013 by helpmewin

[bdatt]

Regarding threat, what about a 20-25% threat bonus on TkT tied to only 3xHS, instead of a 7-8% per stack? And for the DR, what about a 20% increase in DR during the channel? Both require more attention to building 3 stacks of HS and the additional DR would benefit those with greatest knowledge of the fight that can time big hits vs just using it on rotation.

[dipstik]

I don't know....8% DR and almost killed SH. Shadow will be worst in DR and worst in SH but best in defence and DMG/threat.Mb for PvE this is better but for PvP this is worster than been. This decision is +100 to guardian tank to be more topical in PvP. So shadow tank in 2.5 will be only for NWZ randoms. Sad.

 

shadows will be the best for damage taken:

 

SNV:

D weapon 0.7793

D force 0.207

D internal 0.0137

shadow jugg VG

d 586 1053 781

s 940 940 1130

a 1150 683 765

pre armor squish 0.4965 0.6267 0.5921

post armor squish 0.2513 0.3086 0.2620

post heals@6k (2.5) 1508 1718 1572

spike 0.03754 0.03913 0.03253

 

TFB

D weapon 0.575044534

D force 0.342310329

D internal 0.082645137

shadow jugg VG

d 70 741 140

s 1179 940 1469

a 1427 995 1066

pre armor squish 0.49021 0.61311 0.57304

post armor squish 0.29405 0.35194 0.30527

post heals@6k (2.5) 1764 1978 1832

spike 0.04170 0.04431 0.04231

 

for high force/tech they have least amount of spike and best oevrall mitigation accross the board. looks like jugg tanks need a buff, unless u consider cooldown rotations.

[dipstik]

 

I am really intersted to see the combination of kinetic bulwark and dmg reduction stacking. Oh and how will the treat be offset with the technique?

 

squish values (lower is better)

 

0.2512 with 5.52% from kinetic bulwark and 4% DR from harnessed shadows

0.2624 without kinetic bulwark, with harnessed shadows

0.2710 without 4% from harnessed shadows, with bulwark

0.2833 without either

 

in min/maxed 78 for snv (no relics included)

[Berjiz]

for high force/tech they have least amount of spike and best oevrall mitigation accross the board. looks like jugg tanks need a buff, unless u consider cooldown rotations.

Yeah looks like it, what would happen if the 5% defence buff from retalation was changed to 5-10% shield? I'm guessing it would change the statbugets a bit and maybe make things more balanced?

[dipstik]

Yeah looks like it, what would happen if the 5% defence buff from retalation was changed to 5-10% shield? I'm guessing it would change the statbugets a bit and maybe make things more balanced?

 

tfb nim numbers

 

pre

 

Defense 741

Shield 940

Absorb 995

 

total squish 0.351935524

pre heals/absorb dtps 2112

post heals dtps 1978.28

 

post -5d +10s

d 379

s 964

a 1333

 

total squish 0.346642263

pre heals/absorb dtps 2080

post heals dtps 1946.52

 

i think they should take more damage post heals than VG, sicne they have great set of cooldowns... maybe 100 dps more than VG post heals... so, they are pretty close as is.

[Berjiz]

tfb nim numbers

 

pre

 

Defense 741

Shield 940

Absorb 995

 

total squish 0.351935524

pre heals/absorb dtps 2112

post heals dtps 1978.28

 

post -5d +10s

d 379

s 964

a 1333

 

total squish 0.346642263

pre heals/absorb dtps 2080

post heals dtps 1946.52

 

i think they should take more damage post heals than VG, sicne they have great set of cooldowns... maybe 100 dps more than VG post heals... so, they are pretty close as is.

What are the corresponding vg and assasins pre and post heals dtps? Couldn't find them in the thread.

[Vorna]

Sorry for interrupting the regularly scheduled theorycrafting and numbers crunching, but I have some concerns to put forth to BW about the changes proposed:

 

As a tankasin who does predominately pvp, some of these changes are good, but from my perspective others are not so feasible or useful in the chaotic land of pvp.

 

Combat Technique no longer heals the Shadow, but now increases armor rating by 130% (up from 115%) and deals additional threat when it damages an enemy target.

Good. Having the reactive and undependable self healing replaced by real mitigation is a positive (especially since you unrighteously took away our armor... twice).

 

Do I wish we could have proper mitigation and the self heals on our stance? Yes. Do I think it could be designed so we got both? Yes. Do I think BioWare could design it properly so we got both? No. I'm sorry BioWare, but my faith in your ability to design and balance anything in this game no longer exists, so I'm willing to take baby steps with you now. This is an very good improvement though, so stay on this track with Combat Technique/Dark Charge.

 

What was formerly Rapid Recovery has been renamed Elusiveness and has been redesigned: It now increases the armor rating Combat Technique grants by an additional 20/40%.

 

This is a GREAT improvement, the talent has always been nigh but useless, so having a good reason to spec it is awesome. Thumbs up.

 

3 stacks of Harnessed Shadows no longer cause the Shadow to be healed when Telekinetic Throw deals damage. Instead, it grants Shadow Protection, which increases damage reduction by 1%. Shadow Protection stacks up to 4 times and lasts 18 seconds.

 

This I dislike. Though I can see the potential in pve, in pvp this is just... In pvp, you rarely get off the full channel for harnessed, you're either interrupted or you need to stop to do something like stopping a cap, interrupting a healer, or peeling for your healers. This means the pvp tankasin is going to be out a deficit of mitigation most of the time, mitigation we should be getting and is being factored into our "balance" in pve.

 

From my perspective, heals on harnessed being reactive opposed to proactive mitigation is better, because you don't get to start combat with a harnessed channel, you have to work up to it, so there is a delay between when combat begins and you get the mitigation. And this is assuming we get 4 stacks when we actually get the channel off. I feel harnessed should stay reactive, to give us back something we've lost as it takes time to actually build up and use it.

 

So, I have a proposal, keep the heals on Harnessed Shadows/Darkness. Also restore the Combat Technique/Dark Charge heals during Battle Readiness/Overcharge Saber so the cooldown retains the power it currently has. This would allow for the passive mitigation in Combat Technique/Dark Charge while also having active healing, we can keep the lore of the classes and our uniqueness among the tanks while also giving us the mitigation we need.

 

Our current plans for the 2.5 update include some improvements for Infiltration/Deception and Balance/Madness Shadows/Assassins. Double Strike/Thrash, Shadow Strike/Maul, Whirling Blow/Lacerate, and Clairvoyant Strike/Voltaic Slash will all see slight damage increases (as always, this glimpse of information is subject to change before being released). Effectively, this will increase damage across the board for Shadows/Assassins, especially Infiltration/Deception.

 

It is a rare day that I turn down a buff, but... I remember what you did to Scrapper/Concealment, so I ask... before the massive whining that will end up in extreme nerfs for Infiltration/Deception that will last, likely, years... Please Please do not buff Shadow Strike/Maul. Increasing the damage of the others is fine, it will help with consistent damage... but buffing the spike damage of Shadow Strike/Maul is a recipe for disaster. I ask you to focus your attention elsewhere, please.

 

For Balance/Madness, we also plan to try out a new form of damage over time protection. Through an addition to Psychic Absorption/Devour in the Balance/Madness skill tree, their damage over time abilities will become “uncleansable” – which means that abilities like Triage/Toxin Scan and Field Aid/Cure will no longer be able to remove Balance/Madness damage over time effects. However, certain abilities with long cooldowns like Dodge/Evasion and Resilience/Force Shroud and abilities that grant immunity like Force Barrier will still be able to purge these improved damage over time effects.

 

Now, I just want to point out... these status effect purges you listed? Cannot currently erase force dots. You have effectively told us... that the skills that do not erase force dots... will not be able to erase force dots in the future! Perhaps you meant Restoration/Purge... how you missed the only status purging ability that can remove force dots, I do not know....

 

That said, uncleansable dots are an interesting change that will change very little. The spec needs serious survival help, and a restoration of the damage that was taken away during 2.0, uncleansable dots will do little to help it in pvp or pve.

 

----

 

With all of that said, these answers (and the merc answers) were substantially better than the Scoundrel answers (and some other answers in the past I shall not name). They were informative and generally written from a non-dismissive place, you showed actual concerns for our problems and addressed issues the classes actually have. These are the sort of answers every class should have gotten, and I'm happy for the more frank discussion of overall balance of the game and the classes the questions came from. Thumbs up.

 

With all that said, the resident Sin/Shadow theorycrafters and number crunchers can continue their much appreciated work~

Edited October 4, 2013 by Vorna

[YaanaOhtar]

So they finally decided to take self heal out of shadow and focus on our DR. Funny thing is the self heal is completely useless in any Op or Fp. They, again, crunched number on computer without actually testing it. The only good use for self heal is solo story and pvp. I wonder why they have to go their ways to make all these change when the shadow before 2.0 is just fine, we had lower armor compare to 2.5 but it was compensated with self heal. Everything was just fine till the idiot jedi knight fan thought: "No, it is not ok for Jedi Knight to be OP in dps, Jedi Knight had to be OP in tanking too. I will buff JK up and nerf everything down, specially those shadow, they think they are so cool with their double lightsaber and stealth".

 

I don't know about you guys but I will not activate my subscription. I can still mooch off the stories with free to play.

[LadyDarkkitten]

So they finally decided to take self heal out of shadow and focus on our DR. Funny thing is the self heal is completely useless in any Op or Fp. They, again, crunched number on computer without actually testing it. The only good use for self heal is solo story and pvp. I wonder why they have to go their ways to make all these change when the shadow before 2.0 is just fine, we had lower armor compare to 2.5 but it was compensated with self heal. Everything was just fine till the idiot jedi knight fan thought: "No, it is not ok for Jedi Knight to be OP in dps, Jedi Knight had to be OP in tanking too. I will buff JK up and nerf everything down, specially those shadow, they think they are so cool with their double lightsaber and stealth".

 

I don't know about you guys but I will not activate my subscription. I can still mooch off the stories with free to play.

 

Ye really unhappy about the loss of the healing. This really affects me as Im out and about playing. They seem to only be thinking about the nightmare progression raiders with this change. I've been reading around the forums and it looks like a lethality/healer hybrid agent will fit me better after this goes live: stealth, in combat heals and decent sustained damage with strong survivability. Probably have to switch mains to that and abandon my sin. Ofc they have hinted about op nerfs too, a big hit to energy regen would screw up this idea? Maybe an anni mara then? Idk. I dont want to go back to wow.

[Apeth]

As an infil shadow, sorry I see that the vast majority are tanks. I'm pleased to see our sustained dps improved. There are a lot of times during pve play we can't get behind the mob to ss so a fps increase to cs is welcome it will also increase our normal rotation dps so hopefully we can compete in hm ops a bit better. Edited October 4, 2013 by Apeth

[SleepyKing]

Do I wish we could have proper mitigation and the self heals on our stance? Yes. Do I think it could be designed so we got both? Yes. Do I think BioWare could design it properly so we got both? No. I'm sorry BioWare, but my faith in your ability to design and balance anything in this game no longer exists, so I'm willing to take baby steps with you now.

 

I agree. Really, I don't know why the spikiness problem wasn't just tackled head on, instead of completely re-designing the class over a single issue.

 

Essentially, the problem for shadow tanks is that unmitigated alpha strikes in NiM content can lead to insta-kills because the baseline armor mitigation for shadow tanks is so weak. Mean mitigation is already fine for shadows - better than fine, really. So why not just create a skill that deals with this specific problem?

 

For example, you could make a skill that procs whenever the shadow takes damage from a single attack equalling 40% or more of their max HP. This maybe procs something like a 15% instant increase in armor defense (which has to apply to the attack that procced it), or an instant self heal (done before the "is dead?" check obviously), or maybe a guaranteed 100% shield chance (though there would have to be a limit on the frequency of this). Before the number crunchers leap in, obviously these specific figures are only an example, but it's the kind of solution I'd like to see implemented rather than this heavy-handed approach.

Edited October 4, 2013 by SleepyKing

[Snarkasms]

I love how everybody's complaining that they're taking away the 'skill tank' aspect of shadows/assassins, but the only mechanisms they can propose to keep things as they were and still avoid the issues involve no skill at all. Yeah, let's provide a cheat death mechanic or a buff that procs on giant incoming hits so that the squishy shadow has to do nothing but still survives for a little bit.

 

In this context, BioWare's actually providing a solution that requires more skill than the proposals, since maintaining the 4% preloaded DR buff at least requires some semblance of work from the shadow.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Snarkasms

[Griad]

Not a fan of the loss of self healing. Hate it really, enough to stop me playing my shadow and assassin. It takes away what makes the Shadow/Assassin unique. A better solution would have to get rid of the combat technique self heals and add an extra 5% (or so) armor mitigation, while keeping the harnessed shadow heal. Problem solved, without destroying what makes the shadow unique and fun.

 

I'm especially concerned about how this affects solo play. One of the things I really like about my shadow and assassin tanks is that they are about the only non-healer class where using a non-healer companion is viable and even optimal. The self healing mechanism allows you to run with Nadia, Ashara or another DPS companion without having to stop and use out-of-combat heals after every fight. It allows you to clear solo PvE content at a rate comparable to a dps character, while doing the same on my guardian or powertech tank is an absolute grind that I tend to avoid if I can help it.

 

I know these things aren't really up for a vote, but this seems like the very worst solution they could have come up with. Instead of working with the numbers, looking at how they are building nightmare content (with its current heavy reliance on "alpha strike" mechanics), or coming up with creative solutions to the problem, instead BioWare has gone the "lets just make them like guardians and vanguards" solution. They could have adjusted self heals based on damage taken (maybe big hits proc self heals), made it scale with gear (the better gear you have, the bigger your self heals) or looked at other solutions, but instead they copped out.

 

True they could have gone other ways i agree but some of those changes might have made us to powerfull in pvp wearing DPS gear

[Griad]

Soloing wont be a problem use a heal companion and use dps gear you will be killing mobs so fast its not even funny best way to solo really wouldnt do it any other way.

[LadyDarkkitten]

Soloing wont be a problem use a heal companion and use dps gear you will be killing mobs so fast its not even funny best way to solo really wouldnt do it any other way.

 

No healing pets dont/cant heal enough. the best way to solo is to take a class that can heal itself in combat and use a dps pet. Healers find it better to use a dps pet rather then a useless tank pet for similar reasons: tank pets dont mitigate enough damage and heal pets dont have enough heal output. So we use dps pets as its the most effiiecent way of dealing with the problem. Maybe if bioware modifyied the pets as well... but they wont. They have have the devs/time. So we are gonna be even harder to play out in the world when not in a group.

[Berjiz]

About the solo players, if you read the post you see that they actually state that one reason selfhealing is removed is due to how good it is with solo content and easier content. The same way it's to bad for nim, it's to good for solo/fps.

 

This actually made them considerably better than other tanks when spike damage was not present, and considerably worse when it was. If we had simply increased their ability to mitigate spike damage without reducing their overall survivability, they would have been light-years ahead of the other two tanks in the game, so in the end, their self-healing needed to go.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Berjiz

[tacito]

I liked the self healing aspect. Really did. But since I started tanking nightmare, I guess I'm part of that "hardcore minority" now (playing 4-6 hours a week, that's hardcore right there), I welcome these changes.

 

Sure, there might be other ways. Maybe a short duration (1-3 seconds), low cooldown (<1 minute) buff that increases shield chance by 50% or so. Which would mean we can prevent spikes if they're predictable. Maybe our own version of saber reflect. Maybe the cheat death mechanic proposed by some. Maybe the "heal for x% of all damage taken in the last y seconds" approach death knights had (or still have? didn't check up on that game in years) in world of warcraft.

 

Any of those might have worked. But to be honest, I don't care how they fix it, as long as it's fixed. In term of gameplay, the changes are transparent (will need to optimise TKT/FL usage just as much, if not more due to lost healing threat) and do what they're supposed to.

In a group setting, the changes also don't matter. No shadow tank is running an operation or hardmode flashpoint without healers. Before, they had to heal us a little less due to self healing, now they need to heal us a little less due to increased damage reduction.

 

Maybe in solo play, a shadow tank has to stop and OOC heal slightly more often. I don't really know, rarely play anything solo these days. I imagine it's easier switching to a damage spec and healing comp for that, anyway, but I have no expertise in that field. But for me, as a tank in operations, this is great news and I wish 2.5 hit tomorrow.

[AlrikFassbauer]

I noticed that the playing experience is quite different - at least that's my impression after reading here in in the PvP forums - in the lower levels and in the higher levels.

 

In the Lowbie-PvP, the Shadow/Assassin is considerred as almost "God Mode", with its very, very high damage numbers -

- meanwhile the Shadow/Assassin is considered as quite weak in the highest level regions - this can be seen by some people not wanting to take Shadows/Assassins into HM / NIM FPS / OPs, and in high-level PvP, the Shadow / Assassin being delegated into merely being a node taker & defender.

 

The possible problem I see with this is that

 

- those who feel the class as being far too good in the lower levels are asking for a nerf

- those who feel the class as being too weak in the higher levels are asking for a buff.

 

which in the end means that there are 2 factions out there, each one wanting the opposite of the other faction.

 

And nobody notices this.

[Zoom_VI]

I don't know....8% DR and almost killed SH. Shadow will be worst in DR and worst in SH but best in defence and DMG/threat.Mb for PvE this is better but for PvP this is worster than been. This decision is +100 to guardian tank to be more topical in PvP. So shadow tank in 2.5 will be only for NWZ randoms. Sad.

 

welcome to the life of shield specialist vanguard since luanch

[Griad]

No healing pets dont/cant heal enough. the best way to solo is to take a class that can heal itself in combat and use a dps pet. Healers find it better to use a dps pet rather then a useless tank pet for similar reasons: tank pets dont mitigate enough damage and heal pets dont have enough heal output. So we use dps pets as its the most effiiecent way of dealing with the problem. Maybe if bioware modifyied the pets as well... but they wont. They have have the devs/time. So we are gonna be even harder to play out in the world when not in a group.

 

Strange i never seem to have any problems with my healer keeping up, mainly because the mobs die fast and heal between pulls is fine and keep me topped of so i dont really see the problem, biggest place i see the issue is in pvp i will miss it there.

[YaanaOhtar]

About the solo players, if you read the post you see that they actually state that one reason selfhealing is removed is due to how good it is with solo content and easier content. The same way it's to bad for nim, it's to good for solo/fps.

 

Fixing something because of solo contain or story fps is a stupid way of thinking. Cause F2P only play those contains, changing it; will reduce number of players. And what wrong with solo contain ? it has never effected anyone AT ALL. So that reason is invalid. The idiot had never tested shadow before 2.0, you think the self heal will make shadow much easier to tank in HM FP ? not really; the difference is too little to even consider it a good point. The only thing self heal could effect the community were in pvp but hey it is too strong according to Jedi knight fan, smash monkey can't win against self heal tank dps gear shadow. . This change was not meant to fixing anything; they threw us a bone so we shut up. We still have lowest DR, gl with keeping 4% DR from Tkt, we losing the threat generate from self heal, our Res still not working correctly.