Shadow Top Three Answers

[SomeJagoff]

I want to see if I understand the proposed Tank changes correctly. What I am taking away from the Tank part is they are removing all our passive self-healing and giving us more armor and damage reduction. So they are turning us into something comparable with all other tanks?

 

I haven't read the other questions yet, but if so I'm pretty bummed. I appreciate the answers, but I'm bummed that this is the path they're choosing.

 

The other tanks will still have more armor. They're basically going to revert shadows to Pre1.3 armor rating (170%), then remove the self-healing completely (assuming completely, not sure if they'll keep the healing received from shadow shelter).

 

Ultimately, not sure if this is a buff or a nerf, but it will certainly radically change the playstyle.

 

also, lol@ "no more burst control for you, deception!" Thrash/Voltaic Slash buff has long since needed......uh, dunno if maul needs a buff to be honest, since you can already maul stuff for 8-10k. Auto-crit would be nice, but also probably OP.

[CourtneyWoods]

Hey y'all,

 

I wanted to relay this from the Combat Team concerning some confusion over the following note:

 

• 3 stacks of Harnessed Shadows no longer cause the Shadow to be healed when Telekinetic Throw deals damage. Instead, it grants Shadow Protection, which increases damage reduction by 1%. Shadow Protection stacks up to 4 times and lasts 18 seconds.
  

 

What this means is that each damaging tick of Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning will now grant 1 stack of Shadow/Dark Protection rather than heal the Shadow/Assassin tank. This means that one fully channeled Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning can grant all 4 stacks of Shadow/Dark Protection. The loss of healing and the addition of damage reduction are the only changes to the Harnessed Shadows/Darkness skill – the rest of the skill functions as it previously did.

 

Just as an FYI, unless a note says that a skill or ability has been redesigned, it is (usually) safe to assume that all of the old parts unmentioned remain the same. On the flip side, if we say that a skill or an ability has been redesigned then we will provide a new description including everything that the redesigned ability or skill now does.

 

Hope that clears up some of your questions!

[JasonNH]

Hope that clears up some of your questions!

 

It does! Thank you for the quick turnaround.

[ebado]

Hey y'all,

I wanted to relay this from the Combat Team concerning some confusion over the following note:

 

Thanks for the clarification!

[tacito]

For those that are interested what the changes to Kinettic Combat will look like based on the current information provided here is a visual guide.

 

Essentially the armor rating modifier is 274% versus the current 215% assuming the tank is skilled enough to keep up 4 stacks from the harnessed shadows->TK Throw buff.

 

Also for those worried about the self healing aspect don't forget we still have Battle Readiness which is unchanged as far as we know. This is 15% of our Max HP which for the tank in full 75 Kell Dragon gear averages around 6150HP a pop every 2 minutes. That's a clutch heal I know, but you can use it between 2 times a fight on something simple like NiM Writhing Horror or up to 5-6 times on NiM Terror. That's still a good amount of self healing for the large mean mitigation increase.

 

http://i.imgur.com/5ftLGyS.png

 

Much appreciated. So, all things being equal except the 2.5 changes, one would take about 14% less damage from an unshielded attack if I see that correctly, for which we trade all self healing outside of major cooldowns.

 

Well, should help with those "Okay, why am I dead" moments, but I'm not sure how it plays out in the grand scheme of things. Assuming shadows required 5% less healing before these changes, and we then take 14% less damage, this might be an overall buff... but I'll wait for KBN's post.

 

I wonder if that changes stat budgets. Would that make shield and absorb even more valuable, when unshielded hits don't hurt us as bad? Really curious to see some new numbers, but too tired right now to do them myself.

[GrovesK]

So, it seems to me that this doesn't really change the rotation of a Shadow tank. I'm still building up 3 harnessed shadows then using telekinetic throw for extra damage. Only now instead of self healing TK I will be gaining 18 seconds of 4% damage reduction.

 

Sounds good to me. Anything has to be better, right?

[Bilirubin]

Hey y'all,

 

I wanted to relay this from the Combat Team concerning some confusion over the following note:

 

• 3 stacks of Harnessed Shadows no longer cause the Shadow to be healed when Telekinetic Throw deals damage. Instead, it grants Shadow Protection, which increases damage reduction by 1%. Shadow Protection stacks up to 4 times and lasts 18 seconds.
  

 

What this means is that each damaging tick of Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning will now grant 1 stack of Shadow/Dark Protection rather than heal the Shadow/Assassin tank. This means that one fully channeled Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning can grant all 4 stacks of Shadow/Dark Protection. The loss of healing and the addition of damage reduction are the only changes to the Harnessed Shadows/Darkness skill – the rest of the skill functions as it previously did.

 

Just as an FYI, unless a note says that a skill or ability has been redesigned, it is (usually) safe to assume that all of the old parts unmentioned remain the same. On the flip side, if we say that a skill or an ability has been redesigned then we will provide a new description including everything that the redesigned ability or skill now does.

 

Hope that clears up some of your questions!

OK that makes more sense than chucking boulders to get procs on procs.

[MasterFeign]

So in a perfect proc, it would take 9 seconds (I think to get to the full 4 stacks). So we'd then have 9 seconds of leeway time to get back to the 4 stacks. That seems fair enough. This could be conduscive to highly mobile encounters, but I'm not a big pvper, so I'm not sure if this will have a big effect. I think jugg tanks have to maintain 3 CDs? (not sure on PTs), but assassins need to maintain 2 (the proposed change and dark ward).

[TrooperSev]

What this means is that each damaging tick of Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning will now grant 1 stack of Shadow/Dark Protection rather than heal the Shadow/Assassin tank. This means that one fully channeled Telekinetic Throw/Force Lightning can grant all 4 stacks of Shadow/Dark Protection. The loss of healing and the addition of damage reduction are the only changes to the Harnessed Shadows/Darkness skill – the rest of the skill functions as it previously did.

 

Thats how I was interpreting it, but I know many people were confused. Thanks for the clarifications. Anything else would have completely changed the sin tank rotation too much.

 

While I will miss the self healing, I'm glad sins are getting back some mitigation. I love my sin tank due to the rotation and abilities, but I felt bad bringing it to guild raids knowing I could be a liability when my Jugg tank(who's rotations I despise) is so much better. Great step in the right direction.

 

P.S. - The combat team has really stepped it up in their answers since the heal2full debacle. I and probably many others thank y'all for the responses we've been getting.

[Biberteddy]

Stop this!

Stop Buffing/Nerfing Assasin Tank ..

 

Sin Tanks are good at all!

I am a Sin Tank since 1 Year and I dont have any problem in Hc and Nim

I cleared all Operations in Nightmare as Maintank ... and my healers never said that sin Tank sucks nether that we are getting that high DMG

 

If people cant play sin-tank .. so it isnt Biowares fault nether it means that the sin tank sucks ....

 

Plz Bioware - dont steal our Heals ....

i have a EHPS ~150

Healing Done .... between 120-180k Healing Done on myself !

So plz Bioware dont destroy the mechanics of the Sin tank!

 

Thx !

[theJediMaste]

Stop this!

Stop Buffing/Nerfing Assasin Tank ..

 

Sin Tanks are good at all!

I am a Sin Tank since 1 Year and I dont have any problem in Hc and Nim

I cleared all Operations in Nightmare as Maintank ... and my healers never said that sin Tank sucks nether that we are getting that high DMG

 

If people cant play sin-tank .. so it isnt Biowares fault nether it means that the sin tank sucks ....

 

Plz Bioware - dont steal our Heals ....

i have a EHPS ~150

Healing Done .... between 120-180k Healing Done on myself !

So plz Bioware dont destroy the mechanics of the Sin tank!

 

Thx !

 

Everyone else seems to be loving the changes Bioware made,or at least like the direction Bioware is going with Shadow/Assassin tanks,I don't know why you wouldn't feel the same.

[Trenhob]

I'm pleased with the response. Thanks for being specific about the changes you're considering, Bioware.

 

I rarely tank, so I'll leave that up to those who have first hand experience but I think it's too bad we need to drop a differentiating mechanic to achieve balance.

 

I'll gladly take a small damage boost across most of our melee skills. The classes shouldn't be all that far apart once things like single-target Orbital Strike and such are addressed, and I know at least a few people who will appreciate another shot at Deception in PvE.

 

I don't think dispel protection alone will make Balance/Madness a great PvP contender suddenly, but it's a nice start. It will correct the currently near-guaranteed chance that our damage will have no impact on the outcome of a match. I still have concerns about survivability, but we'll see where other classes end up as well.

[tacito]

Stop this!

Stop Buffing/Nerfing Assasin Tank ..

 

Sin Tanks are good at all!

I am a Sin Tank since 1 Year and I dont have any problem in Hc and Nim

I cleared all Operations in Nightmare as Maintank ... and my healers never said that sin Tank sucks nether that we are getting that high DMG

 

If people cant play sin-tank .. so it isnt Biowares fault nether it means that the sin tank sucks ....

 

Plz Bioware - dont steal our Heals ....

i have a EHPS ~150

Healing Done .... between 120-180k Healing Done on myself !

So plz Bioware dont destroy the mechanics of the Sin tank!

 

Thx !

 

But we ARE "getting that high DMG". Because of the low damage reduction through armor. Yes, with the changes to stuff like Terminate, it's less likely to insta-gib shadow tanks, but the spikes are still there. And while I'm also a bit sad to see self healing go away, I think it's not an important part of actual gameplay going away.

 

I mean, the self healing on Combat Technique/Dark Charge is completely without player interaction, and TKT/FL are basically the same (yes, sometimes it can be worth it to save those, for a moment or two, but in the end it's still the best damage/threat per second we can apply).

So self healing is important, for the overall statistics. But it doesn't add any gameplay, aside from "Oh crap, dropped low again". The only self healing that really requires players interaction (Battle Readiness/Overcharge Saber) is staying as is, so we're not losing that one.

Since the 25% DR from that cooldown stack additively with the DR from armor, this change actually buffs that cooldown as well.

 

So basically, PLAYING a sin tank won't be different. Healing one will be. But I don't think that's a bad thing.

 

What's interesting: Since, for mitigation, TKT/FL would only be required every 18 seconds, we now have to evaluate ideal usage of Project/Shock, Double Strike and TKT/FL based on dps. As a tank spec. That's rather funny.

[Drudenfusz]

I like how the shadowtank currently is... but I am not a raider, but a PvP player, so my perception on s**** damage might be a little different. Guess I have to play it first to see how the Shadow Protection holds up to all the healing I am losing, but I always liked not to be too dependend on a healer in PvP as shadowtank. Hope that change will not spoil the game for me.

[Doulo]

My initial response is very pleased. This maintains a significant skill threshold and smooths damage. I will look again and write something more significant tonight after work.

[Malaka_Blue]

but I'll wait for KBN's post..

 

My spreadsheets are made from Keyboardninja's work. I just disagree with his 2.2 itemization which is why my defense is very low in those numbers. Honestly he isn't he end all be all god of SWTOR theory crafting. A lot of people using his numbers have performed less than optimal even when playing the class optimally.

[Stavroz]

Amazing news for Tank Shadows.

 

I am very happy

[SleepyKing]

Not a fan of the loss of self healing. Hate it really, enough to stop me playing my shadow and assassin. It takes away what makes the Shadow/Assassin unique. A better solution would have to get rid of the combat technique self heals and add an extra 5% (or so) armor mitigation, while keeping the harnessed shadow heal. Problem solved, without destroying what makes the shadow unique and fun.

 

I'm especially concerned about how this affects solo play. One of the things I really like about my shadow and assassin tanks is that they are about the only non-healer class where using a non-healer companion is viable and even optimal. The self healing mechanism allows you to run with Nadia, Ashara or another DPS companion without having to stop and use out-of-combat heals after every fight. It allows you to clear solo PvE content at a rate comparable to a dps character, while doing the same on my guardian or powertech tank is an absolute grind that I tend to avoid if I can help it.

 

I know these things aren't really up for a vote, but this seems like the very worst solution they could have come up with. Instead of working with the numbers, looking at how they are building nightmare content (with its current heavy reliance on "alpha strike" mechanics), or coming up with creative solutions to the problem, instead BioWare has gone the "lets just make them like guardians and vanguards" solution. They could have adjusted self heals based on damage taken (maybe big hits proc self heals), made it scale with gear (the better gear you have, the bigger your self heals) or looked at other solutions, but instead they copped out.

[Xinika]

It's ironic how the suggestions I made in this thread, mainly the increase damage to VS and Less Heals for more mitigation is now actually being considered. Yet I received so much backlash for it. Thanks for the answers.

[SalvorHardin]

Shadow

General

• 
  
• Combat Technique no longer heals the Shadow, but now increases armor rating by 130% (up from 115%) and deals additional threat when it damages an enemy target.
  

 

Kinetic Combat

• 3 stacks of Harnessed Shadows no longer cause the Shadow to be healed when Telekinetic Throw deals damage. Instead, it grants Shadow Protection, which increases damage reduction by 1%. Shadow Protection stacks up to 4 times and lasts 18 seconds.
  
• What was formerly Rapid Recovery has been renamed Elusiveness and has been redesigned: It now increases the armor rating Combat Technique grants by an additional 20/40%.
  
• What was formerly Elusiveness has been renamed Rapid Recovery (this was just a name change - the skill's effects remain the same).
  

 

I don't like getting rid of almost every aspect of self-healing but I'll take it if it means I won't risk getting one-shot in 16 HM or put way too much pressure on healers in 8 NiM.

 

HOWEVER, what is the plan for Battle Readiness? It used to give us 100% Combat Technique procs for the duration but since Combat Technique is about to change to mean mitigation, shouldn't Battle Readiness add armor rating or damage reduction for the duration? Seems only logical.

[Malaka_Blue]

A better solution would have to get rid of the combat technique self heals and add an extra 5% (or so) armor mitigation, while keeping the harnessed shadow heal. Problem solved, without destroying what makes the shadow unique and fun.

 

Well they are doing pretty close to what you asked. That extra 55% armor and 4% defense is an Estimated Damage Reduction increase of 5.244% over the current patch 2.4 setup. The part that you and *some* people are upset about is the loss of self healing. With a full Kell Dragon set up and optimal raid encounter a Shadow Tank could self heal for

422.29Hps=(3279.44/11.5+6148.95/120+360.11/5.25+360.11*3/120)*(1+.02)

and now it is

52.27Hps=(6148.95/120)*(1+.02)

 

Here is the visual comparison of heals require before and after 2.5 as currently planned.

 

http://i.imgur.com/kUnKi5l.png

 

But what you would be asking for is a flat out 5% increase to mitigation and the least effective self heal to be removed would actually have us taking 1987.72 damage taken/s with 343.14 Hps for a healing requirement of 1551.88. Your way would require nearly 300 less hps from our healers and taken nearly the same damage taken/s. I can see why that would be OP to some people.

 

I agree that taking away the self healing of Shadow Tanks is taking away the thing that made us special but don't forget we still have Shadow's Shelter which makes our healers 7% more effective as long as they are standing in it, 2% if they aren't. This is still something special to Shadows. Don't forget we can stealth out and disable some mechanics of a fight (Writhing Horror). So we still have uses for a fight that Guardians and Vanguards can't touch.

[Banza]

Not a fan of the loss of self healing. Hate it really, enough to stop me playing my shadow and assassin. It takes away what makes the Shadow/Assassin unique. A better solution would have to get rid of the combat technique self heals and add an extra 5% (or so) armor mitigation, while keeping the harnessed shadow heal. Problem solved, without destroying what makes the shadow unique and fun.

 

I'm especially concerned how this affects solo play. One of the things I really like about my shadow and assassin tanks is that they are about the only non-healer class where using a non-healer companion is viable and even optimal. The self healing mechanism allows you to run with Nadia, Ashara or another DPS companion without having to stop and use out-of-combat heals after every fight. It allows you to clear solo PvE content at a rate comparable to a dps character, while doing the same on my guardian or powertech tank is an absolute grind that I tend to avoid if I can help it.

 

I know these things aren't really up for a vote, but this seems like the very worst solution they could have come up with. Instead of working with the numbers, looking at how they are building nightmare content (with its current heavy reliance on "alpha strike" mechanics), or coming up with creative solutions to the problem, instead BioWare has gone the "lets just make them like guardians and vanguards" solution. They could have adjusted self heals based on damage taken (maybe big hits proc self heals), made it scale with gear (the better gear you have, the bigger your self heals) or looked at other solutions, but instead they copped out.

 

I agree with you completely.

 

My main is a shadow since day 1 and I started playing as a DPS which unfortunately I had to lay off entirely since 2.0 as a PVE player. I switched to tanking so that I can still be a part of clearing NIM content (DF HM 4/5 as of today). With the changes above, yes this will help shadow tanks fare better in operations but with a huge blow against gameplay for me. I leveled both a guardian and vanguard to lvl 50 as tanks and it was quite painful. Good bye Nadia

[Dormancy]

If I were in charge of this change, I would keep self-heals but link it to an instant cast ability (like Discharge). And I would let each stack of Harnessed Darkness heal for x, or x%. This way, the assassin tank will still require player skill in anticipating incoming damage, but can offset it accordingly.

[Biberteddy]

Everyone else seems to be loving the changes Bioware made,or at least like the direction Bioware is going with Shadow/Assassin tanks,I don't know why you wouldn't feel the same.

 

Because Bioware destroy the nice mechanic of sin tanks.

Sin Tanks are atm concipied to avoid dmg, dodge dmg and self heals!

 

If Bioware give Sin Tanks Armor and remove the heal abilitys ... the mechanic of Sin tanks are destroyed and alle tanks are the same ... :/

 

And this isnt fun!

 

Sin tanks rule atm. Sin tanks are the only tanks who can avoid 100% of special ability dmg of bosses , can negate all dmg to zero , avoid dmg , buff healers, can use selfheals + + +

 

Sin tanks are fine atm!

 

just l2p the class -.-

[ConCube]

BioWare, you disapppinted me by not disappointing me ...

 

Really nice changes, especially for Deception