Shadow Top Three Answers

[DarthSylar]

No healing pets dont/cant heal enough. the best way to solo is to take a class that can heal itself in combat and use a dps pet. Healers find it better to use a dps pet rather then a useless tank pet for similar reasons: tank pets dont mitigate enough damage and heal pets dont have enough heal output. So we use dps pets as its the most effiiecent way of dealing with the problem. Maybe if bioware modifyied the pets as well... but they wont. They have have the devs/time. So we are gonna be even harder to play out in the world when not in a group.

 

If you have decent gear on your healer, staying alive shouldn't be an issue, the time it takes to kill mobs may be one if you are use to flying through dailies with a DPS companion.

[Doulo]

This whole argument about solo play is rather confusing to me. The heal from TkT replaces health that is lost fighting mobs. The changes will mean that I won't lose that health. In 2.4 say I would lose 5k health and heal for 2.5k, leaving me 2.5k down. With the changes I will lose 2.5k and heal for 0 across the same fight. Thus I am 2.5k down in the current system and in the change. At the end of that fight, nothing is different.

That is the point the devs are making in this. It shouldn't change the overall mitigation, just how the mitigation is handled. The heals are dependent on fighting so you have to lose health to gain it back. By changing it we don't lose nearly as much health. Why do you think this will cause a massive shift in solo play?

[Berjiz]

This whole argument about solo play is rather confusing to me. The heal from TkT replaces health that is lost fighting mobs. The changes will mean that I won't lose that health. In 2.4 say I would lose 5k health and heal for 2.5k, leaving me 2.5k down. With the changes I will lose 2.5k and heal for 0 across the same fight. Thus I am 2.5k down in the current system and in the change. At the end of that fight, nothing is different.

That is the point the devs are making in this. It shouldn't change the overall mitigation, just how the mitigation is handled. The heals are dependent on fighting so you have to lose health to gain it back. By changing it we don't lose nearly as much health. Why do you think this will cause a massive shift in solo play?

That depends on the incoming dps, the new changes are equal to the current stuff around 4-5k incoming dps. So if the incoming dps is lower than that the new changes are a nerf.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Berjiz

[Doulo]

It does depend on the incoming damage and yes, lower DtPs will be a nerf, but it also depends on how that damage arrives. If it is very bursty damage (spikes) the change will be a buff even on lower stuff. But the difference is still pretty small. I solo all of the dailies in the game (except Long Shots) and rarely use any of my cds. I may now have to use BR or a medpac one in a while, but I would certainly trade that for better improvement in operation performance. I just don't see this increasing my difficulty in soloing Heroics or FPs much at all. If is turns out on the PTS to be huge issue and I have to spend as more or more time doing dailies on my shadow than my Guardian, instead of half, I will change my opinion. I just don't think that will be the case.

[g_land]

So they finally decided to take self heal out of shadow and focus on our DR. Funny thing is the self heal is completely useless in any Op or Fp. They, again, crunched number on computer without actually testing it. The only good use for self heal is solo story and pvp. I wonder why they have to go their ways to make all these change when the shadow before 2.0 is just fine, we had lower armor compare to 2.5 but it was compensated with self heal. Everything was just fine till the idiot jedi knight fan thought: "No, it is not ok for Jedi Knight to be OP in dps, Jedi Knight had to be OP in tanking too. I will buff JK up and nerf everything down, specially those shadow, they think they are so cool with their double lightsaber and stealth".

 

I don't know about you guys but I will not activate my subscription. I can still mooch off the stories with free to play.

 

Ah the statement of one who was used to being OP and now is not.

[YaanaOhtar]

Ah the statement of one who was used to being OP and now is not.

 

Lolz, i'm not talking to an idiot that have never played shadow tank. You have no idea how OP shadow tank were before 1.3, even smash monkey today can't win against shadow tank before 1.3. Shut your mouth if you haven't play from beginning and have no idea what you were saying.

[DaftVaduhhh]

Going to give a shout out to the idea of a Force-based unlimited target AoE that changes based on technique/charge.

 

Shadows blow in most AoE situations in PvP, Ops & FP content, so I'm going to put it out there that an ability as described (with an appropriate CD) will create a better balancing of the DPS trees for PvP & PvE.

 

Ideas:

Moderate to heavy, fast tick internal DoT application for Balance that consumes Force Suppression (weaker than sever mind/force breach, utilising surge bonus)

 

Moderate to heavy internal attack for Infil (weaker than Force Breach, perhaps consuming FB stacks? Must utilise surge bonus)

 

Moderate to heavy kinetic attack for KC (perhaps with an additional debuff or shortened CD?)

Edited October 5, 2013 by DaftVaduhhh

[g_land]

LOLZ too funny Edited October 5, 2013 by g_land

[RedVisionaire]

So, question here. Will Battle Readiness have any effect at all on the threat generated by Combat Technique? Would be cool if it increased the threat proc by 100%.

 

Also, I'm not too happy about the change to Harnessed Shadows. I don't doubt that it'll be better, but I rather enjoyed being able to give myself some 'passive regeneration' in longer fights. My ideal solution would have been to put some damage reduction on the Harnessed Shadows stacks themselves, so the player has to decide whether it would be worthwhile to lose them for some health or keep them, instead of just "build three, throw, build three, throw", but whatever. At least the mit buff lasts long enough to allow for some flexibility there.

[DaftVaduhhh]

LOLZ too funny

What? My post?

 

I did leave out it would be a melee range AoE. Still hilarious?

[DaftVaduhhh]

Also, I'm not too happy about the change to Harnessed Shadows. I don't doubt that it'll be better, but I rather enjoyed being able to give myself some 'passive regeneration' in longer fights. My ideal solution would have been to put some damage reduction on the Harnessed Shadows stacks themselves, so the player has to decide whether it would be worthwhile to lose them for some health or keep them, instead of just "build three, throw, build three, throw", but whatever. At least the mit buff lasts long enough to allow for some flexibility there.

This is the common complaint about the change but it's a multifaceted issue.

 

On the one hand, you can have things roughly as they are, and add a second stacking buff that can be reset (alongside KW/DW), or you can recognise that given the volume of knockbacks and stuns in current content (particularly PvP), when to use self-healing was a difficult thing to decide for the average (and in any other class, capable) tank.

 

Now that you can get one TK throw off then you just need to have one tick off every other one in a PvE encounter to refresh, that element of needing to rote learning a fight's mechanics to a higher precision has gone. Your process becomes:

 

- Plant and correctly re-plant Phase Walk as needed

- Watch the animations (purple conals and high damage casts) for Resilience usage

- Get off a good TK throw at the start, then continue to work it into your rotation as often as possible or when mobility is at a premium, thus with much less stress in a mobile phase.

- Track your KW & Absorb stacks

- Know the difference between Deflection & BR and thus when to use them.

 

Honestly VG & Guardian are so alike aside from 3 defensive CDs:

- Both get a free AoE from being struck (Sweep @ 3 courage, Pulse Cannon on quick tick)

- Both have a set-and-forget off-gcd move to increase mitigation

- Both have an unlimited target form of damage reduction on a 1 min CD (smoke grenade vs sabre reflect)

- Both have a key attack which procs a smart AoE based on a debuff being applied to the direct target

 

From there it simply differs in application of self-healing, pull vs push, SW & WC and one 30 m move vs RS & AD and 5x 30 m moves, and finally higher passive absorption and armour vs higher defence and active absorb.

 

Shadow is a completely different style of tank, that shares elements from each but when laid out for comparison stands in a bracket of its own IMO. It remains the skill-based tank.

[Vaidinah]

Bioware, I'm disappointed in you for taking a spec that finally took a small measure of skill for a brief period of time to play decently and removing that element of skill. I can't say for sure until you actually alter them, but based on your proposed changes, you are removing the sole weakness of Shadows/Assassins and taking away a significant portion of their uniqueness (most of their self healing). Beyond that, they got a significant buff with Phase Walk being on all the time. It was actually refreshing that people needed to learn how to deal with spikiness for once (even though it was taken too far in 16 man NiM ops), but that's just going to be gone in the near future.

 

When the time comes, I will likely drop my Assassin as I have no desire to play this spec when it requires the least skill to be the most effective. It was bad enough when they were like this pre-2.0 for a year straight and you want to bring us back into this mess a second time.

[kjng]

While i dont disagree with the changes to the shadow/sin tank in theory, i find that it is lazy. The solution is elegant, but highly unimaginative. Well, it is more like BW prefer to eliminate the problem rather than solving it. While this is acceptable in real life, it is really not very fun in an MMO.

 

If BW continue to go down this road, soon we will only have 3 classes. I want to play SWTOR like chess, not checkers. What unique characteristic that differentiates the classes will eventually be no existent

 

Furthermore, i feel that BW view on balance is not 100% correct. BW seem to like to look at averages. That is why there is a problem with shadow tank spikiness in the first place. Also, BW do not consider the perspective of risk when deciding on reward. shadow/sin tanks are risky due to the fact that they are mainly reliant on shielding. As it is a big gamble, there should be better rewards. So if shadow/sin tanks are considered "broken" because they need 5% less healing than other tanks, I think it is broken because it should be more than 5%. If i want to make big money, I will go to the equity and money market where the risks are higher, but rewards are equally as high (shadow/sin). If i want to play it safe, I will just go buy bonds or keep my money in the bank (guardian/jugg). This is why raids and warzones prefer jugg over sin tanks, because sin tanks are riskier, but bring little or no additional benefit compared to a jugg tank.

 

Just my two cents.

[Leafy_Bug]

It seems that some of you guys are really stuck in the past where the self heal actually mattered. You gotta wake up and smell the coffee. Having said that, stop polluting the forums with stuff like 'oh noes, they took skill away, my self heal AAAWWW MYYY GAAWWWD'. It is fairly clear most of you are story mode heroes if you are crying about the epic 700+ self heal if you are high mitigation build. That heal was completely useless in top tier raiding. If you lot roll a shadow to be gods at low level that is your problem. I have cleared most of TFB NiM and SV NiM as a shadow tank, pre 2.4, and the healers worked their asses off to make this happen. 14k ranged attacks at the olok droids, 10k stabs by bodyguards, 30k dual hits from kephess, etc... I went on the same bosses with my guardian and we laughed how bad the shadow is.

[Chiltonium]

I have to say that while I like the uncleansable dots, the thrash damage increase is very minor compared to increasing volitic slash AND maul. Maul already is ridiculous. A sin on our server hits 12k mauls and 10k discharges, and whats Maul's CD again?

 

I am mainly peeved that I cant use it anymore as madness since bioware decided to dumb down to rotation.

 

What would certainly tide me over, tho not even be close to balancing the spec, is giving madness the same +30% damage to crushing darkness on a raze proc that madness sorcs get. I mean I seriously dont see why they get it and we dont O_o

 

What is also REALLY needed is a dot crit chance talent attached to lightning burns (because that talent is garbage). Something like lethality's +12% dot crit chance. Our surge talent is on dot crits, as well as our only survival talent (parasitism) and with RoTHC, crit is SO low that dots dont crit enough to make a difference in our survival.

 

Speaking of crit chance, while I am not going to say I dont like the 9% melee crit chance on force damage, our main source is dots ....so again....dot crit chance please!

 

I will also advocate ONE more time, although many people have stopped caring. Madness assassins are NOT sorcerers. Stop trying to make us one -_-

 

I spend more time pointing at my target than I do hitting him. And as far as I can tell we are the ONLY spec of any class who's "class" ability (maul) is NOT used. Its like a PT spec who cant use flame burst. Or a jugg spec who cant use sundering assault. Or a sniper spec who cant use ambush. Or a marauder spec that cant use rupture. Its the ability that we get that says HEY IM AN ASSASSIN.

 

Madness assassins for the most part, use all INQUISITOR abilities, and VERY few -assassin- abilities. Lightning charge I dont even count because its pretty much the same as the sorc insta cats dot. We are sorcs with 10m range, no bubble, and terrible survival. I honestly dont see how someone at Bioware sat down, looked at the spec, and said YEP, LOOKS GOOD! IMPLEMENT IT!

 

edit*

 

Also, look closer at your numbers. I played on the PTS, and I've played on live. DECEPTION assassins do -fairly- well in arenas. And only because they can pop out with recklessness, maul, discharge, shock, and spam a few more mauls to absolutely DESTROY a target. Unless they're guarded.....or a tank stops them ....

 

Count how many were MADNESSS assassins. Then count how well THEY did. Most of us die before we can even plant all 3 dots and a death field. SQUISH. My poor sorcerer face. I mean assassin

Edited October 6, 2013 by Chiltonium

[Berjiz]

Easy solution to the first/last tick will refresh thing. Force ligtning with 3 stacks will remove all current stacks so you start again. Even if you have 4 stacks up and only get 1 tick of you will only have 1 stack instead of 4.

[YaanaOhtar]

It seems that some of you guys are really stuck in the past where the self heal actually mattered. You gotta wake up and smell the coffee. Having said that, stop polluting the forums with stuff like 'oh noes, they took skill away, my self heal AAAWWW MYYY GAAWWWD'. It is fairly clear most of you are story mode heroes if you are crying about the epic 700+ self heal if you are high mitigation build. That heal was completely useless in top tier raiding. If you lot roll a shadow to be gods at low level that is your problem. I have cleared most of TFB NiM and SV NiM as a shadow tank, pre 2.4, and the healers worked their asses off to make this happen. 14k ranged attacks at the olok droids, 10k stabs by bodyguards, 30k dual hits from kephess, etc... I went on the same bosses with my guardian and we laughed how bad the shadow is.

 

Nah; i'm not complaining about they increasing our DR. What i'm complaining is they are treating us like bottom class citizen. If you look at how they fix it, you will see that they did not actually test the class, they get the information that you gave them then simulated on programme. You have done pve before 2.0 right ? tell me were shadow really top tank compare to others tank with their self heal ? No, even in HM FP there were no difference at all. So why they thought and think they should change it ?

Edited October 6, 2013 by YaanaOhtar

[ArchangelLBC]

Nah; i'm not complaining about they increasing our DR. What i'm complaining is they are treating us like bottom class citizen. If you look at how they fix it, you will see that they did not actually test the class, they get the information that you gave them then simulated on programme. You have done pve before 2.0 right ? tell me were shadow really top tank compare to others tank with their self heal ? No, even in HM FP there were no difference at all. So why they thought and think they should change it ?

 

Before 2.0 Shadow tanks WERE top tank in PVE content. In great part due to their self-healing (though additionally due to their much higher armor at the time, and most importantly fights which highly favored mean mitigation over spike damage).

Edited October 6, 2013 by ArchangelLBC

[DarthSpekulatius]

Sadness whine

 

stop whining.

 

the sooner we forget that we once had more then five (or six to lazy to count them) Abilities the better

 

RIP Balance

[kennethdale]

I'm not a math guy, but I've been paying attention to the math I've seen so far done to simulate the upcoming changes. Unless I read it wrong, dipstiks numbers seem to say that Assassins will go from having a big issue in regards to spike damage, but requiring the least overall healing when spike damage was not a factor to mitigating damage in general better than any other tank. Ergo, they would be the top tanks again for end-game content. I'm not trying to start something, honestly just wondering if I should start getting my sin into 78 gear to be ready for 2.5 so I can switch to him for raiding...

[sainik]

I will also advocate ONE more time, although many people have stopped caring. Madness assassins are NOT sorcerers. Stop trying to make us one -_-

 

 

the sooner we forget that we once had more then five (or six to lazy to count them) Abilities the better

 

RIP Balance

 

 

Totally agreed. So many posts have been made about this, but they refused to even acknowledge it in their answers. I know they didn't have to, but they could have taken the chance to explain their side of the story, but I guess balance shadow is simply a low priority ? Possible, since it is likely the least played spec nowadays (atleast in pvp).

 

Even the KC changes, I see many people liking it but to me it seems a very bland (lazy ? standard? ) solution. The issues involved might be lot more complicated than I see of course, but somehow this feels similar to the 2.0 shadow changes (removing shadow strike because of usability concerns). Please don't take the easy way out: no more passive buffs to force technique, whirling blow, FIB targets, force regen etc. At the very least make them active/proc, so that it allows balance/madness to use more abilities and makes it interesting to play.

[DuEldrvarya]

This whole argument about solo play is rather confusing to me. The heal from TkT replaces health that is lost fighting mobs. The changes will mean that I won't lose that health. In 2.4 say I would lose 5k health and heal for 2.5k, leaving me 2.5k down. With the changes I will lose 2.5k and heal for 0 across the same fight. Thus I am 2.5k down in the current system and in the change. At the end of that fight, nothing is different.

That is the point the devs are making in this. It shouldn't change the overall mitigation, just how the mitigation is handled. The heals are dependent on fighting so you have to lose health to gain it back. By changing it we don't lose nearly as much health. Why do you think this will cause a massive shift in solo play?

 

No the way the spec would work now is you take 4k damage and heal for 0. Ergo people be pissed.

[Vaidinah]

I'm not a math guy, but I've been paying attention to the math I've seen so far done to simulate the upcoming changes. Unless I read it wrong, dipstiks numbers seem to say that Assassins will go from having a big issue in regards to spike damage, but requiring the least overall healing when spike damage was not a factor to mitigating damage in general better than any other tank. Ergo, they would be the top tanks again for end-game content. I'm not trying to start something, honestly just wondering if I should start getting my sin into 78 gear to be ready for 2.5 so I can switch to him for raiding...

 

No one can be sure until Bioware actually implements their changes, but that appears to be the case. You are able to trade off any good tank enhancements between your characters so that doesn't matter much, but for set piece bonuses, you are probably better off getting them on your Assassin. The Assassin 4 piece bonus is way more important than the Juggernaught one so it's not a big deal if you end up playing your Jugg as he can just use non-set bonus armorings for a while.

[Songwhistle]

Dear DEVS,

 

THANK YOU from the bottom of my heart. i have long been awaiting the time when we got rid of the self-healing. stacks were never really available when needed and only helped when calculating it into average mitigation over a fight. It did absolutely nothing for our spike damage intake. So thank you for seeing the problem and fixing it. Getting an increase in armor and damage reduction will help significantly.

 

The change to threat is really not necessary and will in many cases cause us to take threat from other tanks without using taunt. However i wont complain about it as it will also make it easier to grab threat off DPS classes without a taunt up.

 

Love the previous change to phase walk. it did help but in tank spec for Operations it is rarely used and is a waste of talent points. none the less im satisfied with it for now as there are other places to place talent points.

 

Looking forward to the changes coming to the dps specs even though i dont play dps specs it will open more spots for shadow dps in raids. We have been hard pushed for dps in Nightmare operations despite running a sage/gunslinger and dual sentinel setup. Having dps increased might open up for other class setups.

 

If you see any people whining about loosing their self-healing then just simply ignore them. What makes the shadow unique is the mobility, shield tanking and the aoe tanking capability. not to mention stealth which is situational but none the less sort of useful at times.

 

Im really excitet to start playing my shadow again and look forward to the coming changes. GREAT JOB. :)

[g_land]

What? My post?

 

I did leave out it would be a melee range AoE. Still hilarious?

 

Not you