Can TOR join on the user created content bandwagon ?

[DarthMaulUK]

Well... if it's been done for years now by other MMOs... then it's clearly not thinking outside the box in any way.

 

Protip: MMO companies are businesses. As businesses, they want to be profitable and grow over time. Bending a game completely off it's design philosophy to attract sandboxers is a recipe for disaster. The audience for sandbox is small as a percentage of the MMO player base. It's bad business to try to go after it as though it was a large percentage of the player base, especially when a few veteran MMOs already have that market pretty well locked.

 

Themepark, broad appeal, flexible access, more casual MMOs is where the volume of players is these days.

 

And the old tired argument that giving players the ability to create content > then developers creating content is inaccurate in the extreme. Players that can't be bothered to pace themselves through content in an MMO are not players that have the patience to create or play their own content. This is all just soapboxing for complaint about content. The problem is the fast-food MMO generation, not the content.

 

Not really. Hence why so many MMOs fail to capture an large chunk of the market share. They simply do not offer anything new. And if SWG had still been around, people would still be playing it as a PAID to play MMO. It never went free to play and was only shut down because EA wanted to have the exclusive rights to a premiere MMO and look how that turned out.

 

Developers havent learned that they cant keep churning out regular updates with a themepark MMO. And since SWTOR doesnt even offer any kind of real live events(again SWG did this - thousands of Sand People raiding Bestine).

 

SWG taught me one thing. There are players who love to fight(PvP), players who love to grind content and players who love to craft and they were the ones who loved creating scenarios for others to play and some were just awesome.

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

Honestly I'm not opposed to them allowing users to make content as long as it's a side venture and they keep working on producing real content. I enjoy Half-life mods, Portal user-generate maps, etc. Some are terrible but some can be really good. But from what I've seen in those games they normally put those in once the developers are done with the game and don't plan to do anything else with it.

[Andryah]

Not really. Hence why so many MMOs fail to capture an large chunk of the market share. They simply do not offer anything new. And if SWG had still been around, people would still be playing it as a PAID to play MMO. It never went free to play and was only shut down because EA wanted to have the exclusive rights to a premiere MMO and look how that turned out.

 

Developers havent learned that they cant keep churning out regular updates with a themepark MMO. And since SWTOR doesnt even offer any kind of real live events(again SWG did this - thousands of Sand People raiding Bestine).

 

SWG taught me one thing. There are players who love to fight(PvP), players who love to grind content and players who love to craft and they were the ones who loved creating scenarios for others to play and some were just awesome.

 

Collectively.. the MMOs that are live today HAVE captured 100% of the market share. This MMO is the number 2, or 3 MMO in that market share in NA/EU. AND.. it is the more casual friendly aspects of MMOs that pull in brand new players from other consumer gaming segments....thus growing the player base as a whole for MMOs.

 

All player made content does is attract anarchists to a particular MMO. Personally, I would prefer this MMO not do that. There is plenty of content to play, and plenty of players playing it.

 

The MMO player that complains about content is not the majority player base, and never has been in MMOs. These people.. they need to be playing multiple MMOs at the same time (or in rotation) to meet their locust level consumption needs. No reason for any MMO to try to kill a game trying to cater to these players.

 

And you can go all nostalgic about SWG all you want.. but the fact is.. that game peaked at less then 300K players, and lived most of it's life well below 100K. So it's not a poster child by any means for capturing player base in MMO play. If anything.. it exemplifies the fractional minority nature of what you are pitching for.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Andryah

[Callaron]

All player made content does is attract anarchists to a particular MMO. Personally, I would prefer this MMO not do that. There is plenty of content to play, and plenty of players playing it.

 

Errr... wannabe writers maybe, but anarchists...?

Hell, I've usually found the content creators to be among the nicest of the community members in the games that had them.

[Andryah]

Errr... wannabe writers maybe, but anarchists...?

Hell, I've usually found the content creators to be among the nicest of the community members in the games that had them.

 

The unstructured and undisciplined approach of player generated content injects anarchy. They are anarchists by method not by ideology or social behavior. An MMO developer could try to mediate this with restrictions... and then the players complain about the restrictions.

 

This, by the way, is true of the writings of many amateur writers as well. Their writing lacks structure and discipline for consumption by others. Nothing wrong with that in the context of their own personal enjoyment. But consumption by others..... carries a higher standard in society. Probably about 1 in 100 are actually consumable quality (going by the metrics of writing clubs, and editors)

Edited August 13, 2013 by Andryah

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

The unstructured and undisciplined approach of player generated content injects anarchy. They are anarchists by method not by ideology. An MMO developer could try to mediate this with restrictions... and then the players complain about the restrictions.

 

http://exurbanpedestrian.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/captainhyperbole2.jpg

[Jacen_Starsolo]

Well... if it's been done for years now by other MMOs... then it's clearly not thinking outside the box in any way.

 

Protip: MMO companies are businesses. As businesses, they want to be profitable and grow over time. Bending a game completely off it's design philosophy to attract sandboxers is a recipe for disaster. The audience for sandbox is small as a percentage of the MMO player base. It's bad business to try to go after it as though it was a large percentage of the player base, especially when a few veteran MMOs already have that market pretty well locked.

 

Themepark, broad appeal, flexible access, more casual MMOs is where the volume of players is these days.

 

And the old tired argument that giving players the ability to create content > then developers creating content is inaccurate in the extreme. Players that can't be bothered to pace themselves through content in an MMO are not players that have the patience to create or play their own content. This is all just soapboxing for complaint about content. The problem is the fast-food MMO generation, not the content.

 

Now I want UGC more than ever. Just so when Bioware announces "Player created content is coming to TOR!" just to see the back tracking. That alone will be worth it. lol

 

But this game is not really made for it. After getting cutscenes after another after another throughout the game, it would be very hard for us to get that with UGC. And also after all the cutscenes, if all the UGC is just click a terminal then go fight X number of mobs... excuse me while I YAWN at that. UGC in this game will be more stupid than other games that haven't relied so much on VO work.

[branmakmuffin]

Neverwinter has player-created content. A very small amount is worth a squirt. The rest is just mindless hack-and-slash, because that's easy to do.

[Callaron]

Neverwinter has player-created content. A very small amount is worth a squirt. The rest is just mindless hack-and-slash, because that's easy to do.

 

And because the game is hack-and-slash.

[branmakmuffin]

And because the game is hack-and-slash.

True.

[LordArtemis]

It has worked well in some games...in other games not so much.

 

If players could get past the likely lack of VO on the quests and the fact it would likely need to use "modules" to drive content I think it would be feasible.

Edited August 13, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Callaron]

It has worked well in some games...in other games not so much.

 

If players could get past the likely lack of VO on the quests and the fact it would likely need to use "modules" to drive content I think it would be feasible.

 

The VO isn't the only reason TOR will probably never see user created content.

I kinda doubt Disney/LA would give their okay to the idea - and if they do they'd probably want Bioware to police the hell out of the system so that no ludicrous content is poluting their IP.

[LordArtemis]

The VO isn't the only reason TOR will probably never see user created content.

I kinda doubt Disney/LA would give their okay to the idea - and if they do they'd probably want Bioware to police the hell out of the system so that no ludicrous content is poluting their IP.

 

CBS has demonstrated a much more militant posture when it comes to policing content compared to Disney and they allow player created missions in STO.

 

Disney would not be as restrictive as you might think IMO.....LA was much more militant about that sort of thing. Disney, not so much.

[GatorAndy]

The games given as examples for having UGS are all different types of games. NOT ONE is a true MMO the way SWTOR is. I played NWN a long time ago, and while some user created levels were pretty good, the vast majority were crap. In a true MMO such as this, it would be virtually impossible, IMO, to make them worth doing without them becoming abuseable. For these reasons, I would be against any kind of FP or Op creation tool. The only kind of UGS I'd be okay with would be armor shells, and any other thing that would not have a chance of affecting gameplay.

[Amera]

I really don't understand why anyone would oppose a Foundry. No one is suggesting that players create progression raids or flashpoints. The point is that they could create story missions as a substitute for daily quests and other such drivel.

 

Or are we really sitting here arguing that Bioware writes amazing daily quest lines filled with alien dialogue gibberish? Even most of the flash-points and side quests are essentially trashy fan fiction with hilariously binary (and often arbitrary) choices.

 

But oh noes, Timmy647 wrote a really stupid adventure. Let me go back to talking to that random Bioware NPC who's going to send me out to click on three sensor dishes for the 400th time. Now that is some professional quality content!

Edited August 13, 2013 by Amera

[ManiacDavis]

I would create "The Jawa Games" a 2 man, 16 team deathmatch with exotic power ups scattered around the map.

[Prototypemind]

Yeah, the problem would be how dry some of the content would feel. No voice-acting, no cutscenes to progress the arc, just text and action. That said, it's not that much different than some of the daily quests that already exist, so why not?

 

I definitely like the idea of user-designed gear, because much of what is available the cartel and other means is lacking overall. Would not complain at all if we got additions in this vein.

[Soluss]

Indeed.

 

Why is it that some players want an MMO to morph into their own personal playground of desire? There are games that fulfill the OPs desire.. and if that's what you want... by all means play them.

 

Play an MMO for what it offers you. It's game, not your career or life long goal.

 

There is nothing wrong with asking for this. Other MMOs have done it, some did it well and some didn't. That doesn't mean that EAWare has to implement it, but there is nothing wrong with asking for it. If players never asked for new features then we might not see any.

[Darth_Moonshadow]

There is nothing wrong with asking for this. Other MMOs have done it, some did it well and some didn't. That doesn't mean that EAWare has to implement it, but there is nothing wrong with asking for it. If players never asked for new features then we might not see any.

 

To go back to the reality TV analogy, just because someone asks to see what transpires in the lives of toddler beauty pageant contestants and their momagers, doesn't mean it's a good idea, especially when you know it's not a good idea if history has shown you it isn't.

[Jacen_Starsolo]

The games given as examples for having UGS are all different types of games. NOT ONE is a true MMO the way SWTOR is. I played NWN a long time ago, and while some user created levels were pretty good, the vast majority were crap. In a true MMO such as this, it would be virtually impossible, IMO, to make them worth doing without them becoming abuseable. For these reasons, I would be against any kind of FP or Op creation tool. The only kind of UGS I'd be okay with would be armor shells, and any other thing that would not have a chance of affecting gameplay.

 

As already said in the thread, the Neverwinter people speak of with the UGC is NOT NWN. It's the Neverwinter Online that just came out months ago. And you saying "a long time ago" shows you don't know what people are speaking on when they mention Neverwinter. Plus you said "levels" which again shows you are speaking not of the MMO.

[Drebs]

I honestly do expect to see some form of UGC from WoW with the next expansion. And its important to remember UGC doesn't just have to be quests and missions. Looking at the way EQnext is handling it--they're creating a separate client (Everquest Landmark) that will allow players to sculpt environments Minecraft-style, only with much more detail and control. Players will be able to create anything, but exceptional work will potentially make it into the game world. Its not clear if it will be up to the devs or the community to decide which designs get incorporated, but it could be made to work either way.

 

If its stories and quests--sure, there will be a lot of junk created, but with a simple rating system the good content will rise to the top. I've been playing Shadowrun Returns, and have been blown away by the quality of the UGC. The player-creators are doing things that the devs should have thought of for the main campaign. And those modules are the ones with 5-star ratings.

 

If y'all are going to stay in this loot-centric mindset of grinding away hours of your life for some gear drop, then you're really not seeing where this is going. In a world where the community has the tools to create interesting stories and gameplay experiences and everyone's power is adjusted to make the challenges appropriate, it doesn't matter what gear you wear. All that matters is that you're having fun.

[ImpactHound]

I really don't understand why anyone would oppose a Foundry. No one is suggesting that players create progression raids or flashpoints. The point is that they could create story missions as a substitute for daily quests and other such drivel.

 

Or are we really sitting here arguing that Bioware writes amazing daily quest lines filled with alien dialogue gibberish? Even most of the flash-points and side quests are essentially trashy fan fiction with hilariously binary (and often arbitrary) choices.

 

But oh noes, Timmy647 wrote a really stupid adventure. Let me go back to talking to that random Bioware NPC who's going to send me out to click on three sensor dishes for the 400th time. Now that is some professional quality content!

 

+1 Like:)

[Callaron]

I honestly do expect to see some form of UGC from WoW with the next expansion. And its important to remember UGC doesn't just have to be quests and missions.

 

I'm not too sure about that... I mean, Blizzard has never even added housing - which a lot more of their players have been clamoring for than for UGC.

Normally I expect them to ste... err "borrow" everything that they consider good ideas from the competition.

So either they think housing and UGC are crappy ideas, or there are some technical reasons as to why they don't do it.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Callaron

[hadoken]

I think the game engine is unwieldly enough in the developers' hands.

 

I can only imagine what trying to create such a system for players would result in. The tool would likely be a far cry from user friendly.

 

And it wouldn't interest me at all as a large part of the appeal in this game is the voice acting for stories. And no, I wouldn't suggest they let players record their own either

Edited August 15, 2013 by hadoken

[TUXs]

I really don't understand why anyone would oppose a Foundry. No one is suggesting that players create progression raids or flashpoints. The point is that they could create story missions as a substitute for daily quests and other such drivel.

 

Or are we really sitting here arguing that Bioware writes amazing daily quest lines filled with alien dialogue gibberish? Even most of the flash-points and side quests are essentially trashy fan fiction with hilariously binary (and often arbitrary) choices.

 

But oh noes, Timmy647 wrote a really stupid adventure. Let me go back to talking to that random Bioware NPC who's going to send me out to click on three sensor dishes for the 400th time. Now that is some professional quality content!

Great points. This actually moved me from the "hell no" camp to the "can't be any worse" camp.