Dual Spec. Still want it.

[Soluss]

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't they implement the field respec unlock after this statement. Unless I am mistaken, the field respec WAS the "dual spec" that was "in the works and coming soon". If I am correct, they did fulfill that statement, just not in the manner you would like them to have fulfilled it.

 

Ironically, this is the very statement that those who wish to change their class want to ignore and dismiss as it does not support their desire to change their class, but supports the idea that AC's are different classes.

 

Field respect is the ability to reset your talent points in the field. We had the ability to reset talent points from day 1, just not in the field.... you had to do it on the fleet. Field respect is not what they were talking about with Dual Spec. They may have implemented that as a bandaid to what people wanted, but its not what anyone meant.

 

Why are you arguing this? A large portion of people want it. It is a very convienient QOL feature. Is there something wrong with it? Does it hurt you or the game somehow?

[Dawginole]

They don't know how to do it. There's like 3 programmers at that studio. The rest of the staff drinks all day and occasionally comes out to post on the forums. Then they have meetings about wishing they could afford more programmers to make the game better. Edited June 26, 2013 by Dawginole

[Suntaru]

Field respect is the ability to reset your talent points in the field. We had the ability to reset talent points from day 1, just not in the field.... you had to do it on the fleet. Field respect is not what they were talking about with Dual Spec. They may have implemented that as a bandaid to what people wanted, but its not what anyone meant.

 

Why are you arguing this? A large portion of people want it. It is a very convienient QOL feature. Is there something wrong with it? Does it hurt you or the game somehow?

 

A large portion? Are you sure? The only ones I have seen wanting it is these groups here on the forums. The players that frequent the forums are a minority because the majority never come to the forums. If Bioware really wants to find out what the majority wants, They should send out a questionaire with like 20 items off their "Wall of Crazy". I think that would be more fair that changing things that possibly only a vocal minority want.. I think that would be fair for all parties

[Jeweledleah]

It is a completely harmless convenience feature. Adding dual spec, IMO, simply saves your spec choice sets when you desire to respec. It is the same as respec, it just saves all of your hotbar locations, etc....if that is how it is set up (I think it should be).

 

I often try to consider reasons why an option would be a negative for a game. I can't find one here. I think this is something that is pretty innocuous in nature.

 

pretty much this. keep field respec as is, just allow people to save couple of bar/talent/gear presets to make switching we can already do more convenient. block it from being usable while in a warzone, if that's a concern (after all - they managed to do that with rocket boosts, they can do that with other features as needed)

 

I mean, right now I'm already managing just fine, but it does take a few minutes, even while having my most used talent configurations virtually memorized and gear arranged in my inventory for maximum convenience. saving presets means, I'm not making other people wait for me to switch.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Jeweledleah

[Toweleeeie]

I'm still waiting on dual spec. I want it. Others want it.

 

Some people may think it's no longer needed, but that doesn't change the fact that it has been over a year since the devs said they would have it in. Then they changed their minds. Then later, nothing.

 

Many, many MMO's have dual-spec already. Why don't we? We have the respecs, we have the market, and the appearance changer. Dual Spec would help instance queues and allow players to have PvP specs AND Dungeon/Raid specs.

 

I want Dual Spec and I want it now! *holds up protest sign!*

 

Because the game was developed by team that was/is clueless about MMO design and they are currently playing catch up. We will get is SOONtm.

[Zadtro]

Dual spec in my opinion is mainly needed because of the action bar switch etc. If there was a way I could switch everything around from pve to pvp spec without having to spend 5 minutes getting everything into place I could probably deal with field respec. It does get kinda annoying having to re-do my skill tree every single time.

 

Also i think if dual spec is implemented you should not be allowed to switch in WZ unless it is the first 1 minute & a half of round 1 when everyone is getting ready.

[Superman_AZ]

Answer me this. Why is it when people want something like dual spec, it is often justified by something along the lines of "WOW does it" or "It's an industry standard", but when it comes to something like class changes, the WOW comparison is dismissed and it becomes "who cares what WOW does? We're talking about this game and not WOW".

 

You yourself fall into this category, unless I am mistaken.

 

Edited for typos.

Fundamentally, most opposition is fueled by fear of not knowing. Personally, I think Dual spec is a good thing, But let's break it down:

 

Dual Spec - The ability to save the configuration of Skill trees and action bars for 2 separate specs as defined by the skill tree. Example: Sith Juggernaut dual spec would be Juggernaut Tank or Juggernaut DPS. This is on par with WoW as it would pertain to a Protection Paladin or Retribution Paladin. There is no physical change in the Advanced Class.

 

Class Change - This ability would allow you to change your advance Class and physically take on a new perspective SIMILAR to your current Advanced Class, but not Identical. This would be like Changing from Juggernaut to Marauder. This would be similar to a Prot Warrior becoming a Retribution Paladin. The inherent issue is the drastic modification of the class itself, like going from Druid to Rogue, or Mage to Warlock.

 

My Solution: Remove the Advanced Class from the equation by adding a different Skill tree into them. For example - In the Sith warrior ACs, use the same 3 trees on both ACs (or a blend of trees based on the Main class). This would give the Sith Warriors 1 tank spec and 2 dps specs, one of which would use 2 lightsabers. This way, regardless of the AC you choose, you have access to the same 3 trees, and still have the same variety.

 

Where this would differentiate, would be with Classes who have ACs who could tank, dps, or heal, like Sith Inquisitor. So, the solution would be to have one of each tree mirrored in both ACs. So, if you choose Assassin, or Sorcerer. So in each AC, there would be a tank tree, a DPS tree (double side LS), and a healing tree. This would allow you to choose your AC and play any of the three trees available to a Sith Inquisitor.

 

This would allow players to keep their characters, keep their advanced class (with class specific perks), and play any of the specs available through either AC. The Advanced Class is the only hang up between SWTOR and the standard trinity of any other MMO. This way, it would retain its unique properties, would still use an AC, and would allow players to experience gameplay from both sides without physically having to change their AC.

[Superman_AZ]

Dual spec in my opinion is mainly needed because of the action bar switch etc. If there was a way I could switch everything around from pve to pvp spec without having to spend 5 minutes getting everything into place I could probably deal with field respec. It does get kinda annoying having to re-do my skill tree every single time.

 

Also i think if dual spec is implemented you should not be allowed to switch in WZ unless it is the first 1 minute & a half of round 1 when everyone is getting ready.

Exactly. The only real difference between the two is the ability to save all action bar and skill tree configurations between two different field respecs. If they added a Save Configuration manager to the field respec option, then we would have Dual Spec and this whole conversation would be concluded

[Superman_AZ]

A large portion? Are you sure? The only ones I have seen wanting it is these groups here on the forums. The players that frequent the forums are a minority because the majority never come to the forums. If Bioware really wants to find out what the majority wants, They should send out a questionaire with like 20 items off their "Wall of Crazy". I think that would be more fair that changing things that possibly only a vocal minority want.. I think that would be fair for all parties

http://www.swtor.com/community/search.php?searchid=4072064

Close to 200 pages of threads discussing and requesting Dual Spec since the launch of the game. I would say that qualifies as more than just a "vocal minority". I'm not even certain why people oppose a feature like this. It has zero effect on how you play your game, it would improve gameplay for others, and it doesn't cost anyone anything who doesn't want to use it. Plus, we already have Field Respec, so if they made a savable configuration manager for the field respec to save our settings between our last spec and our new one, we essentially have Dual Spec. They would need to make one small development change to make it happen. Plus, as someone else stated:

 

http://www.swtor.com/blog/community-qa-feb-10th-2012

 

Aurozia: Will there be a dual specialization system in the future? Will there be a possibility of changing advance classes as well?

 

Daniel Erickson: We have no plans for switching advanced classes - which we see as fundamentally different class designs- but dual spec is in the works and coming soon.

 

So, it is something that has been in the works since 4 months after the launch. We're just hoping for an update of "Yes, we're working on it" or "No, and stop asking". Honestly, it is a game play improvement for a lot of players who like playing more than one spec within their class, and the change would benefit them, and harm no one.

[Ratajack]

You cannot switch classes in WoW. Its a completely different system you are comparing. If you want to compare what you can do in WoW.... then compare it to switching between the specs of your ACs and not switching AC. Switching from an assassin to an inquisitor would be like switching from rogue to mage.

 

You completely miss my point.

 

It seems that the players who want dual spec added to this game, when we already have the ability to change our specs for free and even on the fly with the field respec perk, want to use WOW as the end all argument becuase WOW has dual spec.

 

Many of those same people, however, want to be able to change their class from vanguard to commando, despite the fact that no other MMO I have played, including WOW, allows players to change their class. When the argument that WOW does not allow class changes is brought up, those who want to change their class take the stance that "this game isn't WOW" or "we're talking about this game, not WOW", despite the fact that they want to use WOW having a feature they want as justification for NEEDING that feature in this game.

[LordArtemis]

I added dual spec to my list of sub only perks that should be implemented IMO. Edited June 26, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Ratajack]

Field respect is the ability to reset your talent points in the field. We had the ability to reset talent points from day 1, just not in the field.... you had to do it on the fleet. Field respect is not what they were talking about with Dual Spec. They may have implemented that as a bandaid to what people wanted, but its not what anyone meant.

 

Why are you arguing this? A large portion of people want it. It is a very convienient QOL feature. Is there something wrong with it? Does it hurt you or the game somehow?

 

Field repsec may not have been what people were envisioning when asking for dual spec. That does not mean that BW did not envision field respec as their answer to dual spec as it allows to respec without going to fleet, which was the major complaint of most of the people asking for dual spec. They wanted to be able to change specs on the fly, rather than having to go back to fleet to do so. BW may not have done it in the manner you wanted, but they DID implement as system that addressed the major complaint of having to go back to fleet to respec and not being able to respec on the fly.

[Deganji]

Field repsec may not have been what people were envisioning when asking for dual spec. That does not mean that BW did not envision field respec as their answer to dual spec as it allows to respec without going to fleet, which was the major complaint of most of the people asking for dual spec. They wanted to be able to change specs on the fly, rather than having to go back to fleet to do so. BW may not have done it in the manner you wanted, but they DID implement as system that addressed the major complaint of having to go back to fleet to respec and not being able to respec on the fly.

 

You have a perfectly valid point. We are glad that Bioware added field respec, it's great. It's been a while since they added it though, and maybe it's time to streamline a bit more. We're not asking for it to be like WoW, just more user friendly. Can you really say you enjoy replacing you spec points, and reorganizing your hotbars? At least we can save UIs, if we couldn't, it would be even a bigger nightmare.

 

Maybe a save function for hotbars added to the UI save feature, and maybe a way to save spec layouts. Not much to ask for.

 

It may be simple for some of you to switch, but as a healer I use completely different UI and hotbar layouts compared to when I'm DPSing. Groups aren't going to wait for me to respec, they are going to fly right into the mobs without a second thought.

 

Also want to say I'm totally against advanced class changing. You are what you picked, just like any other MMO. Advanced classes need to be picked at level one to end that debate. Not what we are asking for at all.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Deganji

[Vinak]

This is one of those features that should have been in game a long time ago.

 

It would work great as part of a 3 tiered legacy system.

 

Tier 1 unlocks respec like what is already implemented in game.

Tier 2 allows you to have two preset builds to switch between.

Tier 3 would allow you to have an additional 1-2 presets.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Vinak

[SecretScientist]

You have a perfectly valid point. We are glad that Bioware added field respec, it's great. It's been a while since they added it though, and maybe it's time to streamline a bit more. We're not asking for it to be like WoW, just more user friendly. Can you really say you enjoy replacing you spec points, and reorganizing your hotbars? At least we can save UIs, if we couldn't, it would be even a bigger nightmare.

 

Maybe a save function for hotbars added to the UI save feature, and maybe a way to save spec layouts. Not much to ask for.

 

It may be simple for some of you to switch, but as a healer I use completely different UI and hotbar layouts compared to when I'm DPSing. Groups aren't going to wait for me to respec, they are going to fly right into the mobs without a second thought.

 

Also want to say I'm totally against advanced class changing. You are what you picked, just like any other MMO. Advanced classes need to be picked at level one to end that debate. Not what we are asking for at all.

 

+1

 

A quick-switch multi-spec option is like putting wheels on luggage. Wheels probably seemed like a silly and unnecessary convenience. It requires new design, adds cost and is not required for luggage to function as intended. In fact, we even put a man on the moon before the first suitcase rolled into Macy's.

 

But nowadays, doesn't it really seem like a great idea?

Edited June 26, 2013 by SecretScientist

[Soluss]

Field repsec may not have been what people were envisioning when asking for dual spec. That does not mean that BW did not envision field respec as their answer to dual spec as it allows to respec without going to fleet, which was the major complaint of most of the people asking for dual spec. They wanted to be able to change specs on the fly, rather than having to go back to fleet to do so. BW may not have done it in the manner you wanted, but they DID implement as system that addressed the major complaint of having to go back to fleet to respec and not being able to respec on the fly.

 

You are against making it even better, why? You still haven't answered that.

[Soluss]

A large portion? Are you sure? The only ones I have seen wanting it is these groups here on the forums. The players that frequent the forums are a minority because the majority never come to the forums. If Bioware really wants to find out what the majority wants, They should send out a questionaire with like 20 items off their "Wall of Crazy". I think that would be more fair that changing things that possibly only a vocal minority want.. I think that would be fair for all parties

 

Yes, I am sure that a large portion of the playerbase would like having a dual spec option. You know how many MMO players utilize that very feature? Proof is in the pudding. If its there then people will use it and be glad its there.

[Ratajack]

Yes, I am sure that a large portion of the playerbase would like having a dual spec option. You know how many MMO players utilize that very feature? Proof is in the pudding. If its there then people will use it and be glad its there.

 

No, I do not and neither do you.

 

You can say that many of the people you play with use that feature, but that would only be your limited personal experience and no more accurate than my limited personal experience. The people that I played with in games that had a "dual spec" feature very seldom actually switched specs, although many of them had a set "second spec". They just almost never used that second spec.

 

As for groups not waiting for you to respec, I can only relate my own experiences again. If I have to respec, I simply let the group know that I have to respec and have never had a group refuse to wait the less than a minute it takes me to respec and change my action bars.

 

I'm not against "making it better", but I think the system we have works much better than the "dual spec" that WOW has. That does not even include the fact that the WOW forums are seldom without at least one thread clamoring for triple, quadruple or even more specs. In this thread alone, we already have people who want more than "dual spec". Do we really need to go down that path and tie up more database resources to save multiple specs so people can have a "one click does it all" because they can't be bothered to reallocate their talent points?

[Deganji]

You win. The current field respec is miles beyond what any other game has. We are all just lazy. How dare we want features in a mutlti-million dollar MMO that most every successful MMO since 2006 has had. How dare we! Edited June 27, 2013 by Deganji

[Vinak]

No, I do not and neither do you.

 

You can say that many of the people you play with use that feature, but that would only be your limited personal experience and no more accurate than my limited personal experience. The people that I played with in games that had a "dual spec" feature very seldom actually switched specs, although many of them had a set "second spec". They just almost never used that second spec.

 

As for groups not waiting for you to respec, I can only relate my own experiences again. If I have to respec, I simply let the group know that I have to respec and have never had a group refuse to wait the less than a minute it takes me to respec and change my action bars.

 

I'm not against "making it better", but I think the system we have works much better than the "dual spec" that WOW has. That does not even include the fact that the WOW forums are seldom without at least one thread clamoring for triple, quadruple or even more specs. In this thread alone, we already have people who want more than "dual spec". Do we really need to go down that path and tie up more database resources to save multiple specs so people can have a "one click does it all" because they can't be bothered to reallocate their talent points?

 

I don't personally use this feature therefore nobody should have it available to them.

 

The "database resources" would consist of a few kb file telling the server where spec points belong when you switch spec.

 

I personally switch spec almost daily. Having the ability to just switch between the two would be a great QOL feature for me.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Vinak

[Ratajack]

I don't personally use this feature therefore nobody should have it available to them.

 

The "database resources" would consist of a few kb file telling the server where spec points belong when you switch spec.

 

I personally switch spec almost daily. Having the ability to just switch between the two would be a great QOL feature for me.

 

That's a few kilobytes per character for every character on every server. How much space would that require?

[Deganji]

That's a few kilobytes per character for every character on every server. How much space would that require?

 

If you were to estimate a healthy playerbase of 500,000 players and gave them a healthy estimate of 50kb per spec saved, you'd need about 1.2 terabytes of storage space. That's about $100 bucks, cheaper if you shop around. If they can't afford that, we have major troubles.

[LordArtemis]

First, I don't think it has to be an "either, or" situation. There is no need to eliminate field or quick respec to implement dual spec.

 

Second, the game suffers from more than one reason to need to save quickbar locations. I often find situations where I log in and my quickbar positions have changed for one reason or another, and have to reset them.

 

Third, this is an obvious QoL feature. I doubt it would impact the game in any bad way if it was implemented.

 

 

Finally, there is no reason to try and silence folks that do not think it is a good idea or is needed. Everyone has a right to express their opinion. You also have a right to not agree with them, but it is probably best not to put words in people's mouths.

 

No one person, unless they are a dev of course, has the final word on the issue.

[Deganji]

First, I don't think it has to be an "either, or" situation. There is no need to eliminate field or quick respec to implement dual spec.

 

Second, the game suffers from more than one reason to need to save quickbar locations. I often find situations where I log in and my quickbar positions have changed for one reason or another, and have to reset them.

 

Third, this is an obvious QoL feature. I doubt it would impact the game in any bad way if it was implemented.

 

 

Finally, there is no reason to try and silence folks that do not think it is a good idea or is needed. Everyone has a right to express their opinion. You also have a right to not agree with them, but it is probably best not to put words in people's mouths.

 

No one person, unless they are a dev of course, has the final word on the issue.

 

You're right. Gonna stop arguing with people if I don't like what they say, just gonna give my input where I can.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Deganji

[Dawginole]

If you were to estimate a healthy playerbase of 500,000 players and gave them a healthy estimate of 50kb per spec saved, you'd need about 1.2 terabytes of storage space. That's about $100 bucks, cheaper if you shop around. If they can't afford that, we have major troubles.

 

I'm not sure it's that simple. I don't think it is just a space issue insofar as storage space. Recall that the devs noted that expanding our quest log was not just a storage space issue but that the increased storage also increased log in times, zoning times, and overall game performance because of the additional data that had to be recalled. I'm not making an excuse for them as this probably harkens back to one more problem with the Hero engine. But I'm just bringing this up because they may be having some performance issues when trying to implementing dual spec.