Events bringing the trolls out from under their bridges, and how to fix it.

[ScarecrowES]

Some background. I just started playing SWTOR a few months ago, and when the last Gree event came along I was not high enough level on my first toon to participate. Ever since then, I've been very excited at the prospect of joining in on a community-wide event, as those types of things are rarely seen outside of MMOs. When this current session of the Gree event was announced, I worked very hard to get my second toon (the first is already 55), up to a minimum of level 45 so I could participate in the event from both sides, Republic and Imperial. My expectation was that events like these would bring out the best in a community, and foster the sort of connection, esprit de corps, and cooperation that you'd see in other less involved events in other types of communities, but on a vast MMO scale. Imagine my disappointment... my frustration really... as instead seeing perhaps some of the worst sorts of behavior in gaming communities on display as the most constant and memorable fixture of this event.

 

First, let me say that I recognize that no all players are bad. In fact, the overhelming majority just go into this event intending to quest, at minumum, as if it was any other mission series or dialies. There are, however, a small but fiercely dedicated percentage that insist on doing whatever they can to ruin other people's fun. Much of this problem, I think, stems from a set of contradictory goals for players... largely from the "PvP" section of the event.

 

There are two missions which are flagged as "PvP," and occur only within the PvP area, but are, ostensibly, PvE missions... requiring no intra-player activity whatsoever to complete. If not for occuring in a PvP area, there is nothing "PvP" about these missions. Most players take these missions and do exactly what they objectives tell them to do. Go here, kill some droids, go home. However, as you'd expect, there are players who will forego any missions or objectives, and merely walk around killing other unsuspecting players who are only there to quest.

 

Now, I have heard arguements from dedicated PvP'ers that walking into a PvP area should cause some expectation of being attacked and killed by other players. While I understand the arguement, the counterarguements are simply too numerous to bother repeating here. Because the missions do not require any interaction between players, ultimately, there is a conflict of interest here. Questers, which make up the vast majority of players (significantly moreso on the PvE server I am on), only go into the PvP area because a quest tells them too, and the quest has nothing to do with PvP combat. Dedicated PvP players go into the PvP area specifically because their intended targets do not fight back, which makes working towards otherwise difficult achievements much much easier.. and of course griefers merely go into the area to ensure that other players simply can't complete their mission objectives. In other words "griefers gonna grief."

 

There is no reason, and no reward, for a quester to attack another player in the PvP zone nor any reason to believe they'll be attacked at random while working mission objectives, and PvP players get no reward other than progress toward an achievement. Unsuspecting PvE'ers make an easy target for a dedicated group of PvP'ers.

Ultimately, this has lead to a situation of predation on questers, and to a lack of any sort of enjoyment in this event for anyone but the most rotten fruit of the community.

 

 

There are several solutions that could be recommended to remedy the problem of conflicting interests.

 

One of the most simple solutions, especially on PvE servers, it to entirely remove the open-world PvP area of the map. Leave the objectives, mind you, but simply remove the automatic flagging for free-for-all PvP. Since the quests do not require any player-on-player action as it is, it changes nothing in regards to how the quest is run. While certainly this removes some of the enjoyment from predatory PvP players and griefers, it's otherwise universally beneficial for the whole server. However, my feeling is that this does remove an opportunity for some honest PvP action for PvP players looking for some event-worthy experiences.

 

A second solution. Simply rework the missions so that all current missions occur outside the dedicated PvP arena. Since the objectives are PvE objectives anyway, there's no real reason to have them occur in the PvP arena at all. This lets PvP players keep their arena, including the FFA fights, ... not much different than having the Outlaw's Den on Tattooine... but ensures PvE questers have no reason to go in there. But here too is a missed opportunity.

 

A third solution. Remove all existing PvE mission objectives from the PvP arena. Leave the PvP quests active in the PvP arena, but beef the missions up to include actual PvP objectives. If you're going to have a mission marked "PvP," maybe it should have some objective that requires you to at least interact with, let alone kill, other players. Maybe build in some sort of FFA group objectives. "Kill X number of opposite faction players." or "Kill X number of your faction's players." Or something more creative. Basically give PvP players something to satiate their bloodlust, but put them on equal footing in engagements with other PvP players, instead of preying on hapless questers to get their kicks. Then, in place of the reworked PvP missions, add 2 new dedicated PvE missions. Perhaps a Heroic 2+, or something unique. This way, PvP players get actually PvP event content, and PvE players have more to do away from the PvP'ers.

 

Now, any of these 3 solutions eliminates PvP player predation and griefing. Any one would greatly improve the player experience during the event and make it something more memorable for interesting missions than for anger and frustration at the worst a community has to offer. However, since they event is being reworked anyway for the future level 55 interpretation, why not take the opportunity to do something better with it, as the third solution suggests?

Edited May 23, 2013 by ScarecrowES

[Jenzali]

There is no reason, and no reward, for a quester to attack another player in the PvP zone

 

And this is where PvP and PvE players differ PvP players play for the love of the game.

[MalDeChagas]

There are several solutions that could be recommended to remedy the problem of conflicting interests.

There is one solution already in game. Don't do the PVP quests. On my server all the quests are PVP quests, so I don't have that option.

[Jandi]

Yeah... instead of crying about it, how bout you don't do the PvP quests? I mean... do you complain that you need to do warzones for the PvP dailys?

[SilentKitty]

This is how BioWare decided to arrange their daily PvP-quests. Having them occur in the PvP-area rather than [kill x amount of players]. There are so very few dailies that are PvP-area specific that I do not mind the PvP-crowd getting something interesting in their corner.

 

If you do not wish to PvP then don't go into this area, I don't go without a group of guildies and I rarely PvP.

[Hizoka]

you know it can be annoying... so what i did today is when i went to hit the thing in the middle of the PvP area i saw 4 pubs with half assed gear waiting to gank people...

 

 

so instead of waiting for them to gank me i went and attacked them... they thought cause there was 4 of them no-one would solo charge them. They had no healer and i easily killed them in their grubby gear and capped... for the second i saw a group of 5 doing the same thing... so i killed them and capped.

 

99% of the people playing this game are flat out terrible at it so they use number to compensate for skill. If you attack people when they think no-one will attack them they will panic and they are easy to pick off. Its an MMO and as sad as it is people see PvP flagging as the ability to be a douche bag nothing more... It stems from them having garbage parents who don't teach them respect. So instead of crying on the forums learn how to be really good with your chosen class and learn how to counter every other class in game with your class. It takes time but i can be done, there is no all powerful class in this game. People say powertechs are worthless yet i can kill multiple players at the same time because i'm not stupid and rely on what was once an OP spec.

 

Every class is god in this game provided the person at the keyboard is not bad. Just learn to play and kill the would be gankers... odd are they are bad at the game and just want an excuse to pretend they aren't.

[znihilist]

That maybe be true, but you are forgetting that the PvP quests reward WZ comms, thus making them PvP quests. Now tell me do you think it is fair to gain WZ comms without doing PvP ?

I did my PvP part, I stopped others from doing it and they did the same.

[Sziroten]

And this is where PvP and PvE players differ PvP players play for the love of the game.

 

PvP player aren't opening useless threads on the forum that there is no pvp inside an operation/ flashpoint. It's a quest inside of a PvP area = PvP quest.

[metalfenix]

I agree, those of us on PvE servers should not be bothered with this Open world PvP sections, if people want PvP, go do your warzones, or change servers.

[Artanisia]

And this is where PvP and PvE players differ PvP players play for the love of the game.

 

No, you play because you love to grief other players

[DarthMaulUK]

If you don't like it, either go back to the Sims or dont venture into a PvP zone.

[MalDeChagas]

No, you play because you love to grief other players

PVPing in a PVP area, no grief involved. People who trick people into flagging are griefers. If you wander into a PVP zone on your PVE server, it was your choice to partake.

[Artanisia]

if you don't like it, either go back to the sims or dont venture into a pvp zone.

 

q.e.d.

[Noodlepoop]

I agree, those of us on PvE servers should not be bothered with this Open world PvP sections, if people want PvP, go do your warzones, or change servers.

 

And on PvP servers should be no FPs and operations. And on RP servers should be no quests and warzones at all! oPvP zones exist so that those who like to do both PvE and PvP (or PvPers who choose this server because their friends rolled there) can have some oPvP.

[waterboytkd]

PvPer here. I love it. It is the ONLY endgame stuff I do. But I gotta agree with the OP. The PvP Gree quests aren't PvP. They're PvE quests jammed into a PvP zone. That doesn't make them PvP quests as you don't have to actually play against other players. I would love to see these quests reworked into true PvP quests (kill X players, or kill X orb carriers alongside deposit X orbs in a continuiously active pylon). Just my 2 cents.

[DarkSaberMaster]

Red=Dead.

 

The end.

[Asavrede]

PvP areas really have no place in events like these. Best case, they only bring out the griefers.

 

If you want open world PvP, make dedicated areas for it, and ... heck, there's no reason to even finish that sentence, since the engine can't handle PvP of any sort of meaningful scale.

[DaxCalvo]

I am not a PVPer. I don't worry about expertise. I'm on a PVE-RP server. I've never stepped one digital foot inside a Warzone. I love questing. I love PVE. I love soloing.

 

But for serious, quit crying about this.

 

This event gives you 4 repeatable, daily, pure-PVE quests, plus another one once you get authorization to enter the Gray Secant. It gives you 3 World Bosses to fight, who work into 2 of the 3 non-repeatable pure-PVE missions. The only things this event contains that you cannot earn without enterring the PVP zone are a non-combat pet (which is dropped from a very rare spawn anyway!) and Warzone comms, which as a non-PVPer you shouldn't care about anyway.

 

If you don't want to risk getting attacked in the PVP zone, there is one very simple solution: Don't do the PVP missions. Do the other 5, fight a World Boss if you're feeling up for it, and call it a day. No one is forcing you to do the two missions which are CLEARLY marked as PVP. No one is forcing you to enter the area that gives you clear warning that you are about to be flagged for PVP.

 

PVP players subscribe too. PVP players buy stuff from the Cartel Market too. This is their game too. You get 9 things to do in this event as a PVE player (5 daily missions, 3 World Bosses and a one-time, multi-planet quest) that do not risk any PVP. They get 2 geared toward them. Let them have their fun, just stay away if it ruins yours.

 

BTW, I do the PVP missions. If I get ganked, I shrug it off, switch instances, and hope there are no gankers in that instance. Its not a huge problem. Travel back down there isn't even an issue thanks to the teleporters. The missions are quick. I do them and get the heck out.

[Turshek]

Thoses "PvP" missions are in no way necessary, you can get what you need without putting a foot in the FFA PvP area. It might take a little longer or require you to run the other dailies with one more alt but it's already really easy to earn repuptation.

 

That said, I do agree it's a bad design. Thoses "PvP" missions aren't PvP missions, they are PvE missions in a FFA PvP area. PvP missions should reward people for engaging in PvP, not for clicking on some PvE objects.

 

BW doesn't seem to understand that most players during thoses limited time events want to get reputation/token or whatever the currency for the event is as fast as possible. Anything that somehow decreases how efficiently you can progress is considered annoying or bad design. That's why people were waiting in lines even on PvP servers to do thoses missions, it's seemed more efficient than starting some chaotic FFA PvP.

[SleepyJoeFriday]

As others have said, just give the PVP area missions a miss. It's no real biggie.

 

What's worse is that it is so easy to become PvP flagged by accident whilst completing the PvE missions.

[JattaGin]

Did any of the PvPers in this thread even bother to read the OP's post or are you just here to say "quit whining"?

 

Fact is, the OP posted 3 very good solutions for the current mess that Western Ilum still is.

 

I personally stopped going into this PvP zone after encountering a group of mentally messed up known Imps who made a fun ganking single players on a RP-PvE-server. I could have faced them anyway, because I have a PvP char, but I was not there to PvP.

 

The problem is: The PvP quests in the Gree event bring quite some reputation. I miss them now, because of the bad quest design. Instead I have to collect more green reputation rewards with alts.

 

As the OP wrote: Make a proper PvP quest and put the two PvE quests outside the PvP area. If it would become a PvP quest, I might as well take my guildies, we form a PvP premade and then the Imps will learn that they only depend on their gear and numbers. But until it is a pure PvE mission, I cannot be bothered to put one foot in that area. And frankly, it should not be like this. When they adjust the missions for level 55, they should also address this issue.

[Lung_Tien_Lien]

I agree, but the average PVPer who isn't nearly as good as they like to believe they are likes the easy pickings an event such as this provides. I'm sure I'm an easy target, but then, I have yet to get attacked by anyone who was the same level as me and on their own. Somehow, it's always people ten levels above you (generally, not Gree specifically) or groups of three or more.

 

If those quests were actual PVP quests (as in, kill X amount of players or do X amount of damage or heal X amount of health in the PVP area etc.) it would be a different matter, I think. As it is, they're PVE quests shoved into a PVP zone, providing ample opportunity for people to just hang around and gank PVEers 'for the lulz'. If they were real PVP quests, I might even participate! I have nothing against PVP (I do play Warzones on my low-levels and it's fun), but I dislike the forced mix of PVP and PVE.

 

But as I said. It's relatively popular because a considerable number of (but not all) PVPers aren't actually looking for a fair fight. They're looking for a fight they can win. And this event provides.

[goreblade]

Dude, it's a PvP area...I don't PvP because I suck hard at it, but when I go into the PvP area, I keep my eyes open for other players so I won't get ganked. But I do get ganked now and then, sure I have raged at the screen, wishing diverse bad things to happen to the lil **** that just tore out my spine to keep as a trophy. But know what I don't do? Go on the forums and ***** about it, because PvP is a part of the game, even though I personally dont participate in that part. If you don't want to get ganked, stay out of the PvP area, it's that simple.

[CaptCody]

There is no reason, and no reward, for a quester to attack another player in the PvP zone

 

 

Are you kidding? They recently added that achievement system. There are now plenty of reasons to kill players in open world.

[HitokiriAkins]

From the way I understand the OP, in the Gree Event, there is a PVE quest that requires you to go into the PVP area. Making it not completable if you don't want to be autoflagged for PVP. Most on here jumped on the "I don't want to PVP" part, and not what he was actually saying. The OP wants to finish a PVE quest, but can't because it takes him through a PVP area to finish it, because he doesn't want to get murdered by those who want to be there.