Please Remove Tank, DPS and Heal

[Tsillah]

Having read the 9 pages, as I write this, of the thread, I did not see the necessary touch of reality.

 

You speak of a necessary touch of reality. First of all I don't think it's necessary but secondly what touch of reality are you talking about? This is still a fantasy game as such and to be honest, what you see as reality is not the same for everybody else. 7 billion people, 7 billion realities...

 

Leaving aside the cliché that as a role playing game you need roles, consider the evolution of war since the American revolution. Tactical combat has gone from armies to squads/teams. Squad members may have two 'specialties', but will only use one in a given fight. The trinity is now a set of rules/roles in the real world and so should be in an role playing game.

 

I do not see a game needs roles, but I am saying I want them. GW2 doesn't have them and it bores the crap out of me.

 

And why should something be in a fantasy game that exists in reality? Exactly, it shouldn't. What you meant to say is that YOU would like/want it.

 

I actually think two more roles may be needed in the swtor Republic, at least. An old style Ranger--low DPS, relative to the warrior class but who doesn't get that close to the scrum. (Possible new tactic, ranger runs drawing the opposition away long enough to allow a healer time to work on the rest of the team without resetting the scenario.)

 

Your old style ranger is called a sorcerer DPS. It does less damage than melee dps and snipers but it is a ranged dps with a bit of heal and CC options.

 

I also somewhat favor a crowd control role that stuns/debuffs/debilitates the opposition--real world is the one with the tear gas guns or flashbang grenades.

 

Kinda like the operative you mean?

 

Bioware did this kind of setup, I feel, in DAO so it is doable. But I have not heard of it in MMO. (The comments I saw in this thread were more no specialties oriented.)

 

No idea what you are referring to, but doable doesn't mean desireable. And don't forget: never compare rpg's with MMO's. They are not the same beast. So what's doable in an rpg is not necessarily equally doable in a MMO. That's MMO 101 stuff.

 

I am just not interested in being a psychopathic killer, whether as a solo or in a group.

 

Where the hell did this comment come from? I have no idea what this has to do with the topic. I guess you don't like DS Sith characters? Or what? This conclusion has nothing to do with the subject or your own post for that matter....care to explain?

[GalacticKegger]

Champions Online (the subscriber version) has that.

Comic book superhero characters merit special consideration simply because they are superheroes and individually OP by design. Fantasy & sci-fi characters not born as a Marvelesque superhero or supervillain are ill fit for this. A character that can throw a bus through a skyscraper into a hovering armada probably has no need for a tank. Edited January 31, 2013 by GalacticKegger

[Darka]

Remove them and then let everyone decide what class/spec is best for these roles so they can return .. just not officially.

[WaywardOne]

I agree that EQ's trinity has run its course and "most" players, x-players and probably a very high percentage of non-mmoers will agree that healing guns are ridiculous and counter-immersive, you're going to find a lot of closed-minded stalwarts that will resist change. There are many players and devs that can't imagine a multiplayer RPG without the trinity. Don't ask me why but you can't assume that everyone will agree with you right out of the gate.

[aLLwOrLd_RB]

Go play GW2 if you're so interested in this. Oh wait, that game is boring as hell after a couple of weeks.

 

The trinity works fine for this game. QQ somewhere else.

 

Pretty much this...

[Klarick]

I agree that EQ's trinity has run its course and "most" players, x-players and probably a very high percentage of non-mmoers will agree that healing guns are ridiculous and counter-immersive, you're going to find a lot of closed-minded stalwarts that will resist change. There are many players and devs that can't imagine a multiplayer RPG without the trinity. Don't ask me why but you can't assume that everyone will agree with you right out of the gate.

 

Why do you pretend to talk for so many players? Your implications are wrong. GW2 is boring, soleless, bland, and just empty. Removing the trinity is a bad game design in an MMO.

 

The "EQ Trinity"? I played EQ for many years and I do have many fond memories of that game. However, to imply EQ invented, created, started, first-to-implement, a Trinity system is just ludicrous. The "Trinity System" was born years before EQ was even thought about being developed -- and I mean by many many years.

[Chaometeor]

Go play GW2 if you're so interested in this. Oh wait, that game is boring as hell after a couple of weeks.

 

The trinity works fine for this game. QQ somewhere else.

 

this

[DarthScruffy]

Well... its an old argument. Yea, I've played a couple of games without the holy trinity and ultimately... the specialization occurs anyway as the best strategy. It's just that simple. In my view, I would rather keep it as opposed to having peeps spamming abilities with little or no understanding of how to play as a team.

 

STO space combat is probably the exception which is universally lauded. You can generally push heals and dps at the same time. Now occasionally you'd run into people enforcing the trinity by withdrawing heals, staying out of fights etc. But generally, all ships could do anything that needed to be done.

[Rylorn]

@OP You would REALLY enjoy guild wars 2.

[Marmerus]

@OP You would REALLY enjoy guild wars 2.

Problem with GW2 is that PVP feels like level 19 twink BGs and PVE is just rotations.

[oslek]

Its,..2013 and I think we all can agree something needs to change. I am talking about the old, worn out and tired system of Tank, DPS, and Heal.

 

Stopped reading right there. If you don't like the trinity system then play GW2. The game isn't going to be changed .

[Alavastre]

Even GW2 has the trinity system. You still need some one to help pull aggro, still need a decent healer and DPS.

 

But not having the Trinity system sounds good, and having all DPS would solve that, but I don't think it works with what SWTOR is. Maybe you get away from that if it was like an action adventure type of system, where you can dodge attacks, but the point and click, hit button thing would make a non trinity system boring.

 

Could you imagine just standing around spamming buttons? It's boring now, but if you didn't have a job to do? It would be terrible.

[Tatile]

Also, while tanking as a role is wildly unpopular, many players do strongly prefer healing.

 

I'm one of those strange people who find healing to be a lot more comfortable and easier than tanking and even DPS. Yes, it can be very passive-aggressive some of the time, but that's something that comes naturally. Whenever I've seen people say stuff like "We should remove healers/healing abilities from the game" it's almost like they're saying that people who enjoy healing don't matter.

[lorelthesecond]

No thanks Guild Wars 2 is that way ------->

[Rubytyr]

Is the OP serious? compared to other mmos, this one is VERY forgiving with the trinity requirement - there are multiple classes that can spec as healer/dps/tank. Some more effective then others, but almost anyone can fill at least two roles (with a respec).

 

what you want is...you know what? screw it, im not wasting my tiem, op is a tool, and I cant waste time berating him.

[Heezdedjim]

I'm one of those strange people who find healing to be a lot more comfortable and easier than tanking and even DPS. Yes, it can be very passive-aggressive some of the time, but that's something that comes naturally. Whenever I've seen people say stuff like "We should remove healers/healing abilities from the game" it's almost like they're saying that people who enjoy healing don't matter.

I play both a healer and a tank, and I agree. The healer's job is basically a game of wack-a-mole, and you could, if you wanted to, get through most FPs and OPs without ever saying a word to anyone. People tend to only notice you're even there when someone dies, and then of course it's your fault. It's true that a lot of people don't think healers matter . . . until they need one.

 

As a tank, you have to keep track of a lot more things at once, and you also have to know how each instance works going into it. Even if people have been through it before, there are usually a couple different ways to run each fight, so you have to decide which you will use, and make sure everyone knows what your plan is. In PUGs, you're the main one that has to explain fights to people who don't know them, and in most cases you're the default raid leader, and also have to deal with logistics like loot rolls, if you're on master looter.

 

In some cases you also have to deal with peoples' bad attitudes and stupid drama, and even in good raids you have to be "on" all the time, rather than just kicking back and waiting until it's time for you to button mash.

 

That said, there is quite a bit of pressure in the highest high end instances in this game for DPS to not suck. Because of the stupidly short enrage timers, wipes are caused just as often by DPS that can't cut the mustard as anything else. Heals and tanks can often keep up even if a little undergeared or if they make a mistake or two, but DPS have to be fully geared at the level the raid is scripted for, and they have to know how to rotate for their maximum output, through the entire fight, in order to make things die in the time they need to.

Edited January 31, 2013 by Heezdedjim

[Rubytyr]

I play both a healer and a tank, and I agree. The healer's job is basically a game of wack-a-mole, and you could, if you wanted to, get through most FPs and OPs without ever saying a word to anyone. People tend to only notice you're even there when someone dies, and then of course it's your fault. It's true that a lot of people don't think healers matter . . . until they need one.

 

As a tank, you have to keep track of a lot more things at once, and you also have to know how each instance works going into it. Even if people have been through it before, there are usually a couple different ways to run each fight, so you have to decide which you will use, and make sure everyone knows what your plan is. In PUGs, you're the main one that has to explain fights to people who don't know them, and in most cases you're the default raid leader, and also have to deal with logistics like loot rolls, if you're on master looter.

 

In some cases you also have to deal with peoples' bad attitudes and stupid drama, and even in good raids you have to be "on" all the time, rather than just kicking back and waiting until it's time for you to button mash.

 

I know where your comnig from - played a Tank back in EQ(1), and then throughout WoW; you dont just have to be a tank in game, but RL too - its psychological the amount of bs you have to put up with at times- takes a thick skin.

[Nigredo]

Its,..2013 and I think we all can agree something needs to change. I am talking about the old, worn out and tired system of Tank, DPS, and Heal. It really is obsolete in this day and age,...everyone...EVERYONE no matter what class you are ....wants to beat on the bad guy,..they want to slay,..ok.....they don't want to follow rules in fights...they just want to beat on stuff and watch stuff die

 

This notion that you have to have dps, heal and tank in fights is old school...it's past its time

 

Ask anyone...ANYONE...and they will tell you...they just want to Tank n Spank and get hell outta there and collect the commendations. In and Out..simple..fast and done

 

As it is now,...what do people do in flashpoints? Lol...they skip trash and go directly to Boss and kill for the phat lewt. Spacebar commandos and don't you dare listen to the story...rush to the Boss...get your objective and done

 

Dps fights stuff that the tank isn't even fighting ROFL...healer is healing the dps'rs instead of the tank ROFL...tank is has no clue what aggro is ROFL.....i mean it is total chaos in mmo gaming now days. It is rare to find a coordinated group in traditional tank, heal and dps roles working like a swiss watch

 

Recommendation:

1. Give everyone a natural heal buff over time duration

2. Give everyone heavy armor

3. Give everyone an equal amount of dps

4. Get rid of need and pass and make all loot drop particular to your class and automatically go into your inventory

 

If you disagree with this post....see the thread titled....Don't Get Discouraged by Jerks in Pug's, FP's and Op's. I am offering a solution to eliminate jerks in mmo's,..well no way to totally eliminate jerks but you get the idea

 

 

ummm.. so there... umm... wow... /facepalm

[WaywardOne]

Why do you pretend to talk for so many players? Your implications are wrong. GW2 is boring, soleless, bland, and just empty. Removing the trinity is a bad game design in an MMO.

 

The "EQ Trinity"? I played EQ for many years and I do have many fond memories of that game. However, to imply EQ invented, created, started, first-to-implement, a Trinity system is just ludicrous. The "Trinity System" was born years before EQ was even thought about being developed -- and I mean by many many years.

 

 

Before EQ there was a trinity game? I can't think of a major one. D & D had healers but no taunts and most of the heals were useful between fights and not during (clerics and druids had some of the best damage/control spells on top of their heals). PC games? Muds? Ultima Online? Asheron's Call? No trinity. Most have healing spells and characters more focused on d than o but that alone doesn't mean "trinity" - not the way it does in Wow and Eq and this game.

 

Reread my post - if you're seriously one of the people that doesn't think healing guns are a little ridiculous then you probably need to do something else for awhile. Go watch the latest Peter Jackson movie. 4.75 hours in and it will hit you: "Healing guns really are ridiculous!" will slip into your brain whether you admit it or not.

 

GW2 isn't a bad game, I stopped because of their pvp format and balance issues that I didn't feel like plowing through. I'm sure I'll give it another look eventually.

Edited January 31, 2013 by WaywardOne

[Socialist]

Since when is mobbing (zerg, to put it terms WoW players will understand) considered "too revolutionary"?

 

 

Now you're just blatantly telling lies or plain trolling.

 

I assume you never played with a coordinated guild there.

 

Because, indeed, 'dungeon door' groups are a bunch of fools just running around like it is Devil May Cry.

[Klarick]

Before EQ there was a trinity game? I can't think of a major one. D & D had healers but no taunts and most of the heals were useful between fights and not during (clerics and druids had some of the best damage/control spells on top of their heals). PC games? Muds? Ultima Online? Asheron's Call? No trinity although all have healing spells and characters more focused on d than o, that alone doesn't mean "trinity" - not the way it does in Wow and Eq and this game.

 

Reread my post - if you're seriously one of the people that doesn't think healing guns are a little ridiculous then you probably need to do something else for awhile. Go watch the latest Peter Jackson movie. 4.75 hours in and it will hit you: "Healing guns really are ridiculous!" will slip into your brain whether you admit it or not.

 

GW2 isn't a bad game, I stopped because of their pvp format and balance issues that I didn't feel like plowing through. I'm sure I'll give it another look eventually.

 

There you go again speaking for everyone. Are you omnipresent? I love healing guns. In SWTOR, I heal as a BH, a Trooper, an operative, and a Sorc. The sorc is the most boring one, while the "shooters" are extremely fun. It is indeed a blast.

 

There were Muds way before Everquest was a dream in a developers eye. There were many tabletop games as well -- DnD being the biggest one that had classes that could only learn certain skills -- such as healing. Though not a 100% trinity system -- it was very close.

 

GW2 seems like the right fit for you. The other, about 25 million, MMO players around the world will stick with Trinity based MMO's.

 

P.S. I do love Everquest however. Or, at least my memories of it. But innovative? Invented the Trinity based system? Not by a long shot.

[Kubernetic]

Its,..2013 and I think we all can agree something needs to change. I am talking about the old, worn out and tired system of Tank, DPS, and Heal. It really is obsolete in this day and age,...everyone...EVERYONE no matter what class you are ....wants to beat on the bad guy,..they want to slay,..ok.....they don't want to follow rules in fights...they just want to beat on stuff and watch stuff die

 

This notion that you have to have dps, heal and tank in fights is old school...it's past its time

 

Ask anyone...ANYONE...and they will tell you...they just want to Tank n Spank and get hell outta there and collect the commendations. In and Out..simple..fast and done

 

As it is now,...what do people do in flashpoints? Lol...they skip trash and go directly to Boss and kill for the phat lewt. Spacebar commandos and don't you dare listen to the story...rush to the Boss...get your objective and done

 

Dps fights stuff that the tank isn't even fighting ROFL...healer is healing the dps'rs instead of the tank ROFL...tank is has no clue what aggro is ROFL.....i mean it is total chaos in mmo gaming now days. It is rare to find a coordinated group in traditional tank, heal and dps roles working like a swiss watch

 

Recommendation:

1. Give everyone a natural heal buff over time duration

2. Give everyone heavy armor

3. Give everyone an equal amount of dps

4. Get rid of need and pass and make all loot drop particular to your class and automatically go into your inventory

 

If you disagree with this post....see the thread titled....Don't Get Discouraged by Jerks in Pug's, FP's and Op's. I am offering a solution to eliminate jerks in mmo's,..well no way to totally eliminate jerks but you get the idea

 

Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this, but this "remove all roles" system has had some problems in the implementation over on the Guild Wars 2 system, which is probably where you got this idea.

 

They are having some significant problems, or at least were the last time I checked their forums, with people not knowing how to act in the midst of raids and PVP, because once the roles are removed, now you have, in SWTOR's case, up to 8 or 16 people who now have to dynamically, on the fly, switch between all three roles simultaneously in order to make up for the dedicated specialties that were removed.

 

Because this had thrown such a wrench into things, it had now devolved into people having to have what were referred to as "hours long interviews" in some cases in order to find people that you could raid with, because now you had to be seeking the absolute cream of the crop out of the player base in order to find those 8 or 16 magic people who could dynamically shift roles in the midst of combat.

[AesirUesugi]

Go play GW2 if you're so interested in this. Oh wait, that game is boring as hell after a couple of weeks.

 

The trinity works fine for this game. QQ somewhere else.

 

Win ^^^

[WaywardOne]

There you go again speaking for everyone. Are you omnipresent? I love healing guns. In SWTOR, I heal as a BH, a Trooper, an operative, and a Sorc. The sorc is the most boring one, while the "shooters" are extremely fun. It is indeed a blast.

 

There were Muds way before Everquest was a dream in a developers eye. There were many tabletop games as well -- DnD being the biggest one that had classes that could only learn certain skills -- such as healing. Though not a 100% trinity system -- it was very close.

 

GW2 seems like the right fit for you. The other, about 25 million, MMO players around the world will stick with Trinity based MMO's.

 

P.S. I do love Everquest however. Or, at least my memories of it. But innovative? Invented the Trinity based system? Not by a long shot.

 

I played many muds before eq1.

 

I played d&d before there was a commercial internet. Plenty of my d&d games had 0 healers but we still got through published modules with stock characters just fine. At high levels mages could "tank" just fine and enemies almost never targeted the least dangerous/toughest pcs first (and it was rare for clerics to cast healing spells mid fight). You want to nerd fight, I'll go a few rounds. D&d play bore no resemblance to any trinity dynamic in eq unless you went out of your way as a player to make it one (but you would sacrifice group performance by doing so).

 

Most muds pre eq favored solo play with some occasional mechanics to force player cooperation but there's no trinity dynamic in any of the ones I played. Name one that had it?

Edited January 31, 2013 by WaywardOne

[Zevrad]

Halo also has it's trinity, and this MMO has adopted a tried and true MMO trinity - but with an SWTOR skin. Perfect for those who like it, but also love Star Wars. Oh, and also the leveling and conversation system is great for an old RPG-fan like me. Not always perfect, but a million times better than the WoW - "Read a Scroll" Quests.

 

EA never planned to do something ground-breaking with the system, I'm personally not particularly bothered. Besides, the game is already out, reworking everything would be ridiculous.

 

There are plenty of other games with different systems - try some of them?

 

As for trinity based systems from the dawn of tabletop RPG's - I'd say it's a direct source, except everything's more streamlined, (say, from 4E) the lines used to blur a lot. I'd say, from Tank/Healer/DPS - the only thing we didn't have is the Thief (Stealth/Traps/Pickpocketing) which they tried in WoW Classic, but it didn't quite work out. The game only got more and more fastpaced, and the rewards for thieving skills were so negligible it was left behind. Not to mention only one rogue class.

 

Another classic is diplomacy, SWTOR has some of that, but hardly on the scale of "The Paladin is the best speaker, so let's let him do the talking"

 

Essentially even though we add little sidebits, it keeps boiling down to the trinity.

 

In a perfectly designed encounter, if one part of the trinity isn't doing it's job, the triangle will collapse. If the Tank and Healer can survive on their own, the encounter is poorly designed, or they outlevel/outgear the content. There has to be time limits, or added mobs coming that the DPS have to burn down. I'm sure you already know this, but it works as a good basis for encounter design.

 

The problem with a GW2 system, is that if people aren't flexible and adaptable at all roles, well - it all boils down to people. The design doc is fine, but if someone wants to say "Look, I kept the group alive just by my healing!" - "Well, everyone else in the group was healing as well, so no" - OR "Everyone's healing!? Can someone DPS!?" It'd take an extremely flexible and adaptable team, who know each other extremely well to naturally slip into the roles the situation demands, and then even, once they get used to it, they might not feel like they "excel" at anything.

 

Well, not everyone's cup of tea.

Edited January 31, 2013 by Zevrad