Please Remove Tank, DPS and Heal

[TheBetty]

Does ESO use trinity?

[Jawstheshark]

actually there are many who do enjoy the challenge of complex encouters.

 

Now, does this require the age old holy trinity of class design? That is a question inside an enigma, wrapped in a paradox.

 

 

I would gladly entertain alternatives, but I do not have any in my brain atm. I would not want to see everyone be a various flavor of DPS.

[well]

Lets zerg everything too like Zerg Wars 2

 

Big time.Mob vs Monster.Couldn't get pass the Beta's.So boring.

[Vhaegrant]

Its,..2013 and I think we all can agree something needs to change. I am talking about the old, worn out and tired system of Tank, DPS, and Heal. It really is obsolete in this day and age,...everyone...EVERYONE no matter what class you are ....wants to beat on the bad guy,..they want to slay,..ok.....they don't want to follow rules in fights...they just want to beat on stuff and watch stuff die

The levelling experience to 50 and the dailies gives you plenty of oportunity to beat on stuff and watch stuff die. No matter what class I have played I have consistently overlevelled the content without any effort, that has allowed me to steamroll through most encounters. And it only gets easier as you get the other class buffs, heroic moment abilities and presence buffs from the legacy. Solo with a healing companion for safety or whip out a DPS companion for overkill (the tank companions function as passable DPS if you turn their aggro generating stance off).

 

This notion that you have to have dps, heal and tank in fights is old school...it's past its time

No, it really isn't past its prime. It's a well honed tactical tool that allows players to feel as if they have a specific role to fulfil and know what they have to acheive to get the job done. It's also a practical tool that allows programmers to plan what tricks they can give the boss fights. It works. While I would love to see more complexity to the system with additional classes I feel such an addition would weaken the available player base.

 

Ask anyone...ANYONE...and they will tell you...they just want to Tank n Spank and get hell outta there and collect the commendations. In and Out..simple..fast and done

You didn't ask me. For interesting FPs and OPs you need a strong mechanic that forces players to co-operate. The trinity fills this role reasonably well.

 

As it is now,...what do people do in flashpoints? Lol...they skip trash and go directly to Boss and kill for the phat lewt. Spacebar commandos and don't you dare listen to the story...rush to the Boss...get your objective and done

I take it you don't belong in a guild and all your FPs are done as PUGs? This certainly isn't the etiquette I would expect in a guild, unless it was agreed on beforehand to be a speed run.

 

Dps fights stuff that the tank isn't even fighting ROFL...healer is healing the dps'rs instead of the tank ROFL...tank is has no clue what aggro is ROFL.....i mean it is total chaos in mmo gaming now days. It is rare to find a coordinated group in traditional tank, heal and dps roles working like a swiss watch

This is an issue of communication and poor players, absolutely nothing to do with the trinity. Again this tends to diminish if you get into a guild or find yourself a group of 'friends' who do FPs at the same time most days.

 

I was always taught to CC as many elites as you can. DPS works up through the mobs weakest to strongest. Tank sits on the biggest threat. Healer keeps the Tank standing. Enemy healers are a priority target.

 

 

Along time ago I read an interview with a game developer, I wish I'd kept the link, in which they said it would be easy for them to write better 'AI' for the bosses and mobs. Unfortunately it would put the difficulty beyond the reach of the average gamer. So the compromise is made to provide a game mechanic that provides a clearly delineated structure to encounters and encourages a strong element for group interaction. In short, the Trinity.

[Stradlin]

Why'd you have to bump such a stupid thread? It has been established nobody in their right mind thinks this is a good idea. Move on!

[CrazyOldMystic]

I can not believe some one brought this bad idea/post back up. Like the poster above me pointed out, removing the trinity, does not change human nature. On average people do not want to work, do not want to work with other people, and certainly do not want to apply thought to what they are doing. This attitude in the gaming world has only gotten worse. The problem is no dev team, no gaming company can change who people are. Going with the ops idea will only turn every class into, as I said before, a generic boring class.

[EpicBloood]

This is the stupidest thing I have read in my entire life.

basically comes down to this:

"I am tired of having to work, try, and think during fights. I want to be able to run into a fight push some buttons and get rewarded. Please make the game easier so that people like me can get gear without having to be a skilled player."

[Zangaboing]

I wont even bother reading the first post, not even going to argue about whether the holy trinity is good or bad for mmos... I only want to say one thing to the OP:

 

You're asking for the dps / tank / healer roles to be removed from the game. In other words a complete rewrite of the game's combat mechanics (gear included) and possibly the need to modify every single boss encounter... You're asking this from developers that waited for at least 1 full year to fix the infamous "Companion lightsaber bug" and havent touched the skill trees to fix PvP and PvE balance for, what... 6 months at least?

 

Can i have some of what you're smoking please?

[CaptRavenous]

That''s right!

 

Keep whipping that dead horse!

 

While we're all here, let's all talk about how old and tired it is that Bioware made us play this game on the old school PC.

 

GET WITH THE TIMES, BIOWARE!!!

 

You SHOULD have released this MMO on the iphone / ipad / video-watch / PS10!

 

FREAKIN' DINOSAURS!!!

 

Seriously, this thread still exists?

Edited February 5, 2013 by CaptRavenous

[Atlanis]

Go play GW2 if you're so interested in this. Oh wait, that game is boring as hell after a couple of weeks.

 

The trinity works fine for this game. QQ somewhere else.

 

Go play ****** GW2^^

[well]

If you meet an ******e, he's just an ******e. But if everyone you meet is an ******e, then your the ******e.

 

That is very poetic.Two thumbs up:eek:

[amnie]

it's funny how I look at it exaclty the opposite.

 

 

I too was never a fan of the 'holy trinity'

 

 

HOWEVER

 

I am a huge fan of having MORE set roles.

 

 

I'm a huge fan of being forced to have more than three roles a must in a raid

 

 

I want raids that need:

 

tank

offtank

group-healer

single-target-healer

buffer/resource-management

melee who also takes care of dots and similar effects

ranged dps

 

most of these things are already obsolete because some game (...) decided to get rid of it and give us the holy trinity instead, and you want it even more easy-mode? ugh.

 

 

am I the only one who also sorely misses the times where you had to run around with 3-4 different sets of gear just for endgame pve content for one role because you needed different elemental dmg/resistances?

 

 

 

the holy triniy is what works best. the 'old system' with the supporter role is no longer 'in', most people are turned off by it...

 

but as latest game developements have shown no set roles isn't working, either. you can't have a 'serious' MMO where everyone is just a dps turning into the hulk 'smash smash smash'. if I wanted to play a marauder, I would...

[SOULCASTER]

In no way shape or form can you really delete the trinity. And I'm not just talking for PVE. Im talking for PvP. If you got rid of tanking healing and dps and just meshed it into every class, it would just turn into each class having 1 viable build. PERIOD. Where they have a mix of dps, heals and tankiness.

 

You simply can't delete the trinity, now matter how old or boring it is. Besides, I think this game does a nice job of mixing Tanks + DPS builds together and Heals + DPS builds together, as well as offering the straight tank, dps or healer.

 

I also happen to like healing, which few do. But I do realize the OP is correct in saying that literally 90% of an MMO community just wants to dps their face off and doesn't care at all about survivability or healing. But the other 10% of us do, and we like our group roles. The other 90% of face rollers only are able to do what they do becasue of the 10% healing and protecting them.

[thomasbaxter]

You need some variety. There's a lot of bad players out there and the roles are a way of sorta making sure they don't f**k up lol

[jasonthelamb]

Go play GW2 if you're so interested in this. Oh wait, that game is boring as hell after a couple of weeks.

 

The trinity works fine for this game. QQ somewhere else.

 

EXACTLY what I was going to say.

 

MMOs need the "roles" to play or else it just gets boring, believe it or not some people like to heal, tank, and DPS.

 

2/3 of my original TOR guild left to go play GW2 and they all like 'AHAHHAHA SWTOR NUBS C U LAYTA," two months later they're a guild on WoW because GW2 was boring.

[jasonthelamb]

it's funny how I look at it exaclty the opposite.

 

 

I too was never a fan of the 'holy trinity'

 

 

HOWEVER

 

I am a huge fan of having MORE set roles.

 

 

I'm a huge fan of being forced to have more than three roles a must in a raid

 

 

I want raids that need:

 

tank

offtank

group-healer

single-target-healer

buffer/resource-management

melee who also takes care of dots and similar effects

ranged dps

 

most of these things are already obsolete because some game (...) decided to get rid of it and give us the holy trinity instead, and you want it even more easy-mode? ugh.

 

 

am I the only one who also sorely misses the times where you had to run around with 3-4 different sets of gear just for endgame pve content for one role because you needed different elemental dmg/resistances?

 

 

 

the holy triniy is what works best. the 'old system' with the supporter role is no longer 'in', most people are turned off by it...

 

but as latest game developements have shown no set roles isn't working, either. you can't have a 'serious' MMO where everyone is just a dps turning into the hulk 'smash smash smash'. if I wanted to play a marauder, I would...

 

 

Also, most raids / guilds do this in TOR, it's not exactly a "set" role, but usually your lesser geared tank is the Off-tank, and depending on the fight one healer takes a group and the other takes a group, or one healer takes a tank and the other healer does the rest, and then the rest of the roles just sort of fill in.

[thomasbaxter]

I agree with the 'more roles' idea but I think new ops/flashpoints should be engaging (though the kind of idea I had was tested in Collicoid War Game and as most of you will know if you're stuck with a ******* or two u may as well forget completing it lol).

 

I'd like groups of 2s having to go to different areas etc

[Quraswren]

Yea, I don't agree with the OP.

 

There is a reason the trinity is still around. It's an old school format that works. I've got no problem with every class not being able to everything.

[FROIDBUSTER]

The simpler a games' class structure the better the holy trinity works. It only falls flat when a game with lots' of diversity tries to show-horn every various class into one of the three roles.

 

And from a design perspective its' fairly impossible for TOR to really break away from that because there isn't enough room in the class/leveling/OPs structure for more variable classes.

 

For example, looke at FFXI, it had an absurd number of random classes. You had soloists who would control pets, you had melee dps with specific synergies, ranged dps with their own niches, magic dps who filled burst roles, support characters purely based on group buffs, outside of just the generic support healers, etc...

 

But the game had a place for all that stuff. During downtime in raids and leveling groups you actually needed a separate support character on top of a healer. Sometimes you wanted a ranged DPS instead of two melee because a melee wouldn't provide the right type of damage or wasn't able to pull the enemies you needed it too.

 

There was a lot of room for all that crazy stuff and every class more or less had a place. TOR doesn't need all that though. Leveling is straight forward and soloable, class mechanics are simply divided into melee or ranged, regeneration and buffing abilities are unneeded or not used at all so the only support you need is a healer.

 

It would be a ridiculously huge undertaking and would basically require sequel level reworks to reconfigure the classes into something resembling a full cast of unique classes... and in my mind is completely unnecessary given SWTORs group limits and sizes.

Edited February 5, 2013 by FROIDBUSTER

[Stradlin]

it's funny how I look at it exaclty the opposite.

 

 

I too was never a fan of the 'holy trinity'

 

 

HOWEVER

 

I am a huge fan of having MORE set roles.

 

 

I'm a huge fan of being forced to have more than three roles a must in a raid

 

 

I want raids that need:

 

tank

offtank

group-healer

single-target-healer

buffer/resource-management

melee who also takes care of dots and similar effects

ranged dps

 

 

Isn't that pretty much you describing a perfectly ordinary, advanced raid environment under holy trinity? This is exactly how WoW was back when I raided in it atleast. I'm assuming most people who say " I like holy trinity and how it brings roles to raiding" are ultimately meaning a setting like the one you are describing.

 

It is a massive shame WoW dropped some of the diversity and support roles. It is even greater a shame how this means that every single WoW clone underneath the sun blindly follows their master and drops the roles in turn. TOR included.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Stradlin

[FROIDBUSTER]

Isn't that pretty much you describing a perfectly ordinary, advanced raid environment under holy trinity? This is exactly how WoW was back when I raided in it atleast. I'm assuming most people who say " I like holy trinity and how it brings roles to raiding" are ultimately meaning a setting like the one you are describing.

 

It is a massive shame WoW dropped some of the diversity and support roles. It is even greater a shame how this means that every single WoW clone underneath the sun blindly follows their master and drops the roles in turn. TOR included.

 

They didn't drop it off hand. They dropped it because under that 40-man raid system something like barely 5-10% of the player base reached the end content. In the long run all the raid size and class diversity was doing was being a content barrier for the majority of the playerbase.

 

Now some content barriers are good, since it gives your players something to work towards and build to, but from a development perspective its' completely asinine to spend millions of dollars and thousands of man hours on content that no one is playing. If no one is experiencing that content then you're essentially wasting your time.

 

Which is why Blizzard (and most other MMO studios) started implementing smaller raid sizes and hard modes. You get many more people into the content by removing player and class restrictions, and at the same time give those players something to work towards in the form of harder difficulty settings.

[odericko]

Disagree. There's nothing wrong with having the trinity - some like having dedicated group roles (like me) and some don't. There's a certain game out there that lacks party roles and it's nothing more than a zergfest, meaning no fun for me. Removing the trinity the game was built on would change the mechanics we all have been used to, playing and enjoying (at least most of us).

[amnie]

Isn't that pretty much you describing a perfectly ordinary, advanced raid environment under holy trinity? This is exactly how WoW was back when I raided in it atleast. I'm assuming most people who say " I like holy trinity and how it brings roles to raiding" are ultimately meaning a setting like the one you are describing.

 

It is a massive shame WoW dropped some of the diversity and support roles. It is even greater a shame how this means that every single WoW clone underneath the sun blindly follows their master and drops the roles in turn. TOR included.

 

I wouldn't know, I never played WoW

 

I just know that I really enjoyed an 'advanced' system such as the one in FFXI - and probably LOTRO (though it took people a while to realise that there's situations where you'd rather take a burgler or a captain than a dps runekeeper but that's a different story)

 

what I do know is that I thought it was quite refreshing to see the 'pistols' tree in the secret world, only to realise that people wouldn't take people who aren't using the pistols for 'off-healing' instead of an actual supporter (no, healing is not a 'supporting role'. healing is healing )

 

what people 'prefer' for a raid is one thing. I know that I myself (a scoundrel) do prefer the healing situation 1 scoundrel + 1 sage in an 8-man.

 

granted it annoyed me a little in lotro when I, a minstrel, usually wasn't the prefered healer in raids/dungeons a lot of group heal was needed, but I was all the more viable in the situations where you needed a single target healer.

 

it's definitely something where I see the problems and I know TOR will always have the 'easy mode trinity' if you so wish. that is ok. my days of 'hardcore raiding' and spending hours each day trying to figure out the perfect group settings/skill rotations/group skills (since both ffxi and lotro had these I guess at least some people know what I'm getting at) are over.

 

in TOR there's 'prefered group settings' that may be different depending on the ops (like how you only really need one tank in EV, for example)... and that's fine. it means other versions still work and more people can join (if we ignore the problem that arise with a group size of 4 leading to even bigger shortage of tanks/healers)

 

there's a reason why there's only so many guilds working on 16 man nim ec... and when you think about how 16 people used to be a 'small raid' in the times past... heh.

Edited February 5, 2013 by amnie

[Sydexlic]

Its,..2013 and I think we all can agree something needs to change. I am talking about the old, worn out and tired system of Tank, DPS, and Heal. It really is obsolete in this day and age,...everyone...EVERYONE no matter what class you are ....wants to beat on the bad guy,..they want to slay,..ok.....they don't want to follow rules in fights...they just want to beat on stuff and watch stuff die

 

This notion that you have to have dps, heal and tank in fights is old school...it's past its time

 

Ask anyone...ANYONE...and they will tell you...they just want to Tank n Spank and get hell outta there and collect the commendations. In and Out..simple..fast and done

 

As it is now,...what do people do in flashpoints? Lol...they skip trash and go directly to Boss and kill for the phat lewt. Spacebar commandos and don't you dare listen to the story...rush to the Boss...get your objective and done

 

Dps fights stuff that the tank isn't even fighting ROFL...healer is healing the dps'rs instead of the tank ROFL...tank is has no clue what aggro is ROFL.....i mean it is total chaos in mmo gaming now days. It is rare to find a coordinated group in traditional tank, heal and dps roles working like a swiss watch

 

Recommendation:

1. Give everyone a natural heal buff over time duration

2. Give everyone heavy armor

3. Give everyone an equal amount of dps

4. Get rid of need and pass and make all loot drop particular to your class and automatically go into your inventory

 

If you disagree with this post....see the thread titled....Don't Get Discouraged by Jerks in Pug's, FP's and Op's. I am offering a solution to eliminate jerks in mmo's,..well no way to totally eliminate jerks but you get the idea

 

So basically you want to turn PvE in this game into the disorganised fuster cluck that is the norm for GW2? yeah no thanks.

[Zaikyu]

Play Guild Wars 2 and stop bothering peeps in Swtor lol