Please Remove Tank, DPS and Heal

[Raynn]

Guild Wars 2 tries this and IMO it doesn't work well. What you get is a bunch of people who just beat on things which makes for a rather boring fight/dungeon enccounter. Most of the PvE content in GW2 was rather sad and very easy to get by. MMOs used to be about teamwork with each individual doing his own part to help the team, not just trying to put up the biggest numbers. While the trinity system is aged it works in the team work aspect. Rift also tried this by adding a a 4th support style class but it also didnt do alot. There may be a better system invented later on down the line, but right now this is the system most people prefer (WoW, SWTOR, hell even COH had it in a small aspect).

[Lord_of_Mu]

Its,..2013 and I think we all can agree something needs to change. I am talking about the old, worn out and tired system of Tank, DPS, and Heal. It really is obsolete in this day and age,...everyone...EVERYONE no matter what class you are ....wants to beat on the bad guy,..they want to slay,..ok.....they don't want to follow rules in fights...they just want to beat on stuff and watch stuff die

 

This notion that you have to have dps, heal and tank in fights is old school...it's past its time

 

Ask anyone...ANYONE...and they will tell you...they just want to Tank n Spank and get hell outta there and collect the commendations. In and Out..simple..fast and done

 

As it is now,...what do people do in flashpoints? Lol...they skip trash and go directly to Boss and kill for the phat lewt. Spacebar commandos and don't you dare listen to the story...rush to the Boss...get your objective and done

 

Dps fights stuff that the tank isn't even fighting ROFL...healer is healing the dps'rs instead of the tank ROFL...tank is has no clue what aggro is ROFL.....i mean it is total chaos in mmo gaming now days. It is rare to find a coordinated group in traditional tank, heal and dps roles working like a swiss watch

 

Recommendation:

1. Give everyone a natural heal buff over time duration

2. Give everyone heavy armor

3. Give everyone an equal amount of dps

4. Get rid of need and pass and make all loot drop particular to your class and automatically go into your inventory

 

If you disagree with this post....see the thread titled....Don't Get Discouraged by Jerks in Pug's, FP's and Op's. I am offering a solution to eliminate jerks in mmo's,..well no way to totally eliminate jerks but you get the idea

 

First and foremost I disagree with everything you just said.

 

Now to address your points.

 

I am talking about the old, worn out and tired system of Tank, DPS, and Heal. It really is obsolete in this day and age,...everyone...EVERYONE no matter what class you are ....wants to beat on the bad guy,..they want to slay,..ok.....they don't want to follow rules in fights...they just want to beat on stuff and watch stuff die

 

This notion that you have to have dps, heal and tank in fights is old school...it's past its time

 

This really isn't the case at all. It is more a of a matter of relevance. The current flashpoint content has been out for more than a year and most people well and truly out gear the content. Tanks and dps both attack mobs because it's what they do.

 

The new trend of healers dpsing seems to stem from the lack of healing needed. If the tank isn't taking damage then dealing a bit of extra damage might speed things up, right?

 

Ask anyone...ANYONE...and they will tell you...they just want to Tank n Spank and get hell outta there and collect the commendations. In and Out..simple..fast and done

 

As it is now,...what do people do in flashpoints? Lol...they skip trash and go directly to Boss and kill for the phat lewt. Spacebar commandos and don't you dare listen to the story...rush to the Boss...get your objective and done

 

As I previous stated, this is a matter of relevance. A lot of people have been, seen and done the current flash points a great many times over. The only motivation people have to continue running the current flashpoints is to obtain their daily dose of black hole commendations.

 

The trash mobs are irrelevant, the bosses prior to the final boss drop garbage and are irrelevant, the optional objectives are irrelevant and the story has been seen and done numerous times over and is at this stage irrelevant.

 

Dps fights stuff that the tank isn't even fighting ROFL...healer is healing the dps'rs instead of the tank ROFL...tank is has no clue what aggro is ROFL.....i mean it is total chaos in mmo gaming now days. It is rare to find a coordinated group in traditional tank, heal and dps roles working like a swiss watch

 

So because a few pug tanks are terrible (real shocker there) and guard healers religiously, have a major case of tunnel vision and are largely ignorant of their own class, abilities, mechanics, stats or simply don't care. The entire system should be removed or heavily altered?

 

You'll find with MMOs that content has a cycling period where the more skilled and intelligent players will be active during the period shortly after fresh content is released. As time goes on those players will have consumed the content and move onto other characters, roles or even games.

 

What you get left with is the bottom of the barrel face rollers who under normal circumstances would be largely ignored in favor of someone better.

 

Recommendation:

1. Give everyone a natural heal buff over time duration

2. Give everyone heavy armor

3. Give everyone an equal amount of dps

4. Get rid of need and pass and make all loot drop particular to your class and automatically go into your inventory

 

I strongly disagree with your recommendations.You might as well remove all classes to simply have a single class. The game would play like a hot potato zerg rush with very little variance.

 

If you disagree with this post....see the thread titled....Don't Get Discouraged by Jerks in Pug's, FP's and Op's. I am offering a solution to eliminate jerks in mmo's,..well no way to totally eliminate jerks but you get the idea

 

There will always be a "jerk" in any community you are part of.

 

Honestly, your entire post comes off as someone who is either been abused by another player due to poor performance or ignorance in regards to class mechanics and abilities or boss encounters. Or someone has abused you because you found a flaw in their performance.

 

If you've been criticized for your performance then do some reading, there are plenty of websites to help you improve your abilities. If you encountered someone that couldn't be told they were under performing, best to ignore them.

 

In conclusion. My recommendations wouldn't be centered on changing the trinity system but rather changing the flashpoint system.

 

1: Create a flash point that can be played in chapters with the overall story arc encompassing two or three wings of a particular flashpoint. For example Dire Maul in WoW. DM East, West and North.

 

2: Design each chapter of a flashpoint series to have a full clear completion time of 20 to 30 minutes with optional bosses adding an extra 5 minutes.

 

3: Reduce the number of trash mobs and sub bosses in a flashpoint chapter and provide incentives to killing them. One or two black hole commendations per sub boss would certainly be worth my time.

 

4: Provide several different optional objective bosses each with an equal chance to spawn. More verity in both boss mechanics and rewards can help to keep a flashpoint fresh.

 

5: Make the optional bosses worth the time it takes to spawn them. If a sub boss gives two black hole commendations then an optional should give double that amount.

[Zevrad]

If you disagree with this post....see the thread titled....Don't Get Discouraged by Jerks in Pug's, FP's and Op's. I am offering a solution to eliminate jerks in mmo's,..well no way to totally eliminate jerks but you get the idea

 

Just to quickly say - you're not just offering a way to eliminate the jerks in MMO's - you're offering a way to eliminate the game. It's like setting fire to the forest because you don't like one of the animals that lives in there.

 

Also, you're not "getting rid of them" - you're just making everyone indistinguishable from each other, good and bad playing doesn't even come in. You don't know who's a jerk or not - except that most of the cooperative good players will be gone, and all you're left with is transient F2P who want to beat bosses, get gear, realise it's boring, and then quit.

 

All you'll be left with is jerks.

[WaywardOne]

As for trinity based systems from the dawn of tabletop RPG's - I'd say it's a direct source, except everything's more streamlined, (say, from 4E) the lines used to blur a lot. I'd say, from Tank/Healer/DPS - the only thing we didn't have is the Thief (Stealth/Traps/Pickpocketing) which they tried in WoW Classic, but it didn't quite work out. The game only got more and more fastpaced, and the rewards for thieving skills were so negligible it was left behind. Not to mention only one rogue class.

 

I haven't played 4E (my groups broke up long before 3rd edition came along) - it looked like they tried to make the game more portable to a trinity-styled computer game when I glanced through the books.

 

My main argument is that the trinity as most people know it comes directly from EQ. EQ devs did say at one point that they were basing many of EQs classes and combat dynamics on D&D but the trinity that sprung from that game was something of a freak, cancerous off-shoot that took on a life and style of its own. I'm not saying that the dynamic doesn't work as a game platform for a Pac-Man/Mario-Brothers styled multi-player game (if one existed)...

 

But my other point is healing guns are silly (as are most healing dynamics in EQ-styled games). There are no main-character or even secondary characters that are combat healers in any fictional format that I know of (comics, movies, books, tv shows - maybe Heroes had one for 1 ep? Was that just before they cancelled?) other than this one and this one suffers a loss of plausibility and theoretical immersion quite a bit because of it. CoH did have a comic book for the first year or so after the game came out. They tried showing us some healers but they disappeared almost as quickly as they were introduced. I would say that if you tried to submit a script that included a combat healer character with healing guns for anything like a Star Wars movie you would be escorted from any studio or office with a security guard possibly being nice, possibly not. The very existance of healing guns is an impediment to this game being taken as anything more than a silly (Mario Brothers) game and not a fictional medium. I'm basically fine with that but I know there are many that are trying for more (and I feel sorry for them as I would the guy getting escorted for submitting an insane script).

 

GW2 pve can be boring, sure. For me, pretty much all pve is boring except for the novelty of the first go around. So I can only argue that SWTOR's pve is boring also (as was AC1's, AoC's, WAR's, EQ1's, EQ2's, Wow's, etc) and almost all of my favorite fights are not the ones where I need a healer (or tank) with my character.

 

I would love it if SWTOR didn't have a trinity but have no illusions or hope that it will move towards that end. I'm not campaigning, just going through the history/design.

[Kynesis]

There's a rather significant difference between removing the trinity and removing all structure.

 

The trinity is an old idea, it's worked quite well for a long time but it has very serious limitations, particularly when it houses the entire scope of your game.

The scope of the functionality of the trinity is just as important as whether or not you use it. Currently for example we can have a single character who can acquire suitable gear and spec appropriately to alternately fill one of two roles (depending on Advanced Class) - my Assassin might on short notice rummage around in his inventory for a dps set, pop open the talent window and respec over the course of say a minute. By contrast, a Marauder or Sniper may only ever dps no matter how much gear they have or how well they allocate their talent points.

 

The discussion necessarily goes far further into game design that I think anybody wants to delve into on a little forum thread that'll be swept away in days if not minutes, but I'll throw a few little ideas in - hopefully in balance to "BLARGH CHANGE BAD FLAT WORLD GOOD"

 

There are a number of good reasons to support the trinity:

• It provides identity - people easily associate themselves either as a healer, tank or dps and following on from that assume a certain level of responsibility.
  
• It's easy to explain to people - it makes me sad but the truth is that people loathe thinking; the standard roles are iconic and don't need much explaining even to people who have never played an RPG.
  
• It provides clear goals - gearing a character of a given role means always working on the same group of stats while safely ignoring others (which other roles use).
  
• It's comparatively easy to design encounters for, you can be sure that a group will include an appropriate balance.
  
• Current boss encounter design as it stands pushes current technology (and creative constraints) to its limits.
  

 

The Trinity however doesn't tend toward heroic encounters - oh sure, you can plug in bigger and bigger 'bosses' but you're still limited to carefully scripted 'dances' - there might be several ways of resolving a given encounter but each is extremely similar and ultimately only ever amount to variations on the theme of 'kill the big dude'.

 

There are very rarely any opportunities for somebody to step out of their comfort zone and do something tangibly creative or that that makes a real difference.

 

I'd personally like to see stances used as a means of more creative use of the roles / trinity concepts, there's a great deal of potential outside the little old trinity box.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Kynesis

[Kubernetic]

There are a number of good reasons to support the trinity:

• It's easy to explain to people - it makes me sad but the truth is that people loathe thinking; the standard roles are iconic and don't need much explaining even to people who have never played an RPG.
  

 

This was a great post, but this part in particular was key.

 

In most WZs I'm in, it's like pulling teeth even to get people to agree to a strategy in Civil War or Novare Coast. To place an even GREATER burden on having to get thrown together and come up with a specialization strategy in 1 minute and 30 seconds is completely contrary to what we're actually seeing in game behavior.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Kubernetic

[Zevrad]

[*]It provides identity - people easily associate themselves either as a healer, tank or dps and following on from that assume a certain level of responsibility.

[*]It's easy to explain to people - it makes me sad but the truth is that people loathe thinking; the standard roles are iconic and don't need much explaining even to people who have never played an RPG.

 

I find these quite important, SWTOR is one of those properties that might be a first MMO for some - as much as most DPS loath being classed as damage meter obsessed idiots, careless of everything else - if you were to say "come and do this thing in a group with us!" "W-what! I don't want to let the group down!" "Don't worry, you're just DPS, just follow everyone's example!"

 

Having no clear duty or role can be daunting for...well, most anyone. No one really understands what's expected of them.

[DarthOmega]

Didn't read the entire thread, just stopped on the first page with everyone claiming GW2 was 'trinity-less'. Um. No it isn't. Whatever you guys are smoking I want some, because it must be good. The trinity is alive and well in GW2 and anyone who has done any of the dungeons knows this.

[Asavar]

How about no?

[lucotas]

No way

[Kynesis]

Just to add to this while I can, think about Roles in terms of what characters can do in an encounter. The structure is defined by the things NPC's and player characters can do (i.e. the abilities on your bars).

 

MMO's are all about the Boss Fight, and In a boss fight, the boss needs to be a serious threat but you can't have everybody tank equally well, so clearly there needs to be a designated tank.

Likewise healing is an important component, it adds a resource management aspect and a level of gameplay on top of "kill the boss" but people can only do so much, so you need dedicated healers.

DPS is important because you need to ensure the conditions to complete the encounter are in the players hands & not just a rate of attrition.

 

 

We won't really see more interesting roles (imho) until encounter design embraces more interesting challenges - i.e. more than just "kill the boss". We need to be working tactically to achieve goals during encounters;

Ideally I'd like that to mean that Operations (and Flashpoints) become more about varying degrees of success in missions than "killing the boss"... that's a whole discussion all on its own though.

 

Once upon a time a certain BW personality made a big deal about the need for encounters to be heroic and that meant against the odds, out-numbered, etc. I'm pretty sure that as professional game designers, they've been thinking about all of this for a long time. I think they'd agree that it all ties in together and that it's the kind of play we should be aiming for.

[Radzkie]

I like the system and removing it would basically call for an entire redesign of the game. I know this is not what you want to hear, but honestly, if you don't like it then play another game. There's lots of games out there, and I'm sure you could find one that suits your tastes. Edited February 1, 2013 by Radzkie

[Nimori]

You can remove the overt trinity system if you like, but it will still be there. It's a staple of RPGs and, to a certain degree, of team-based FPS games as well (e.g. TF2). Players will always find a way to specialize themselves, be it through stats, gear, or abilities, that will allow them serve the trinity roles--a specialization that allows you to absorb damage or mitigate damage to others, a combat support specialization, and a damage output specialization.

 

I don't think the problem that players have with the trinity is inherently borne out of the trinity itself. I think the frustrations stem more from overly rigid game design that doesn't allow for diversity within the trinity. One of my favorite examples of a game that did do this fairly well was FFXI. If you wanted a high-HP/heavy armor/low DPS tank you could grab a Paladin and tank around damage absorption. If you wanted a medium-HP/medium armor/high DPS tank you could grab a Ninja and tank around evasion. The tank type also allowed some flexibility in the healer role as well. A Paladin tank would usually need a White Mage pocket healer, but a Ninja tank could usually get by with a Red Mage (assuming the WHM & RDM were comparably skilled/equipped). TOR does seem to allow a little flexibility with the healer roles, although from my experience as a Shield Vanguard Smugglers/Operatives seem to have better tools at their disposal.

[Hardwear]

You really gotta have balls to come in and ask for a complete combat overhaul for a game that has been live for over a year and then on top of that assume everybody will agree with you.

[jorill]

There a few problems with this post. First off you really need a good alternate system in place that isnt overly complicated that doesnt require a lot of communication to implement. Second is you have to convince people who like or are used to the trinity system to use it. In GW2 people are still looking to fill those roles although the game is designed away from the trinity.

[puffinsith]

Its,..2013 and I think we all can agree something needs to change. I am talking about the old, worn out and tired system of Tank, DPS, and Heal. It really is obsolete in this day and age,...everyone...EVERYONE no matter what class you are ....wants to beat on the bad guy,..they want to slay,..ok.....they don't want to follow rules in fights...they just want to beat on stuff and watch stuff die

 

This notion that you have to have dps, heal and tank in fights is old school...it's past its time

 

Ask anyone...ANYONE...and they will tell you...they just want to Tank n Spank and get hell outta there and collect the commendations. In and Out..simple..fast and done

 

As it is now,...what do people do in flashpoints? Lol...they skip trash and go directly to Boss and kill for the phat lewt. Spacebar commandos and don't you dare listen to the story...rush to the Boss...get your objective and done

 

Dps fights stuff that the tank isn't even fighting ROFL...healer is healing the dps'rs instead of the tank ROFL...tank is has no clue what aggro is ROFL.....i mean it is total chaos in mmo gaming now days. It is rare to find a coordinated group in traditional tank, heal and dps roles working like a swiss watch

 

Recommendation:

1. Give everyone a natural heal buff over time duration

2. Give everyone heavy armor

3. Give everyone an equal amount of dps

4. Get rid of need and pass and make all loot drop particular to your class and automatically go into your inventory

 

If you disagree with this post....see the thread titled....Don't Get Discouraged by Jerks in Pug's, FP's and Op's. I am offering a solution to eliminate jerks in mmo's,..well no way to totally eliminate jerks but you get the idea

 

this would make that game completely a one time shot, why for any reason would you play the game again as a inquisitor after u just did as a marauder go through all the planets only to have to same essential play style , sure inq's use focus and rauders use rage....but when u have all the same skills what is the point,

 

i found i super hard to play a trooper after the BH just cause the skills are all the same....different name and graphic but still the same skills...death from above looks cool....so dose barrage ....aoe...pins target weak and standard......5 meter min range......wait a min thats the same skill !

 

now apply that to the WHOLE game :/

 

this mechanic dates back rpg's like FF1 , u can only go so far without a healer , and with only heals ur like 45 minutes whacking away at a blue slime ( yes i know thats a DQ reference ) for 6 exp.

 

If it ain't broke don't fix it

 

If it is broke....well.....add it to the list

[puffinsith]

I find these quite important, SWTOR is one of those properties that might be a first MMO for some - as much as most DPS loath being classed as damage meter obsessed idiots, careless of everything else - if you were to say "come and do this thing in a group with us!" "W-what! I don't want to let the group down!" "Don't worry, you're just DPS, just follow everyone's example!"

 

Having no clear duty or role can be daunting for...well, most anyone. No one really understands what's expected of them.

 

proper DPS is very important, if you are fail at DPS then you will not get pass the boss in Hard Modes....sure reg flash points might be ok( not including the HK fight:mad:) , but in hard mode if DPS is too low heals will go OOM before boss is dead then tank dies and then finally DPS ...the ONLY reason i like to heal FP's is because the que is 2-5 min compared to 10-20 as DPS since DPS are plenty ur a lil slower to pop

 

my 'raider so sooooo sweet to DPS with im not a DPS nut or anything but when i play him my only concern is " what skill do i use next ? " or " how do u use this furry faster than i build it ? ". when i heal its more....this skill.....or that skill.....gotta think mana....long fight ....just trash...did tank guard me ?

 

IMO

tanking = feeling like a boss cause you cant be stopped

dps = gimmie something to hit, i wanna hit something, damn it! WHERE is something to HIT !

heals = ppppfffffttttt, i can out heal any DPS these Bioware dev's can dish out....boys gotta try harder this ain't my first rodeo

[puffinsith]

Sounds about right to me, unless its a guild pre made group then thats all i tend to get with my DPS'ers

 

in a encounter there usually 1-2 elites and some trash DPS mobs.....if we all focused on the elites then the DPS mobs are free to do there job as effectively as possible which is DPS and more often than not at least one of those will target the healer, this is how DPS is used to mitigate incoming damage , another way DPS is important in a fight, i would say when i heal 50% of the time we wipe a FP mob is cause the dps is focused on the elite and there is soo much incoming damage as a healer u just cant keep up, and 50 % me distracted watching my fish :D:D

^^

this coming as a healer:o

 

so the next time thank your DPS'ers for taking out all the trash while u hold aggro like a good tank so both u and ur healer take as lil incoming damage as possible

[puffinsith]

Nobody asked me and I do not agree with that assertion. I like helping players new to their roles learn how to properly work with them. I enjoy taking my time and watching all of the cut scenes and enjoying the story. Even after I've seen it several times I still find it enjoyable, plus it gives me time to chat with other players who might need a few tips. Really, the Holy Trinity (Tank, Heal, DPS) is not obsolete. It works and people enjoy it.

 

Now there are games out there that don't use the Trinity (Champions Online, Secret World) but because of that the combat can sometimes be confusing and grabtastic. Everyone can heal but no one is really good at it. Everyone can tank but nobody is The Tank. And everyone can DPS but sometimes the fights still take forever and it really feels more like if you just mash your attacks enough times you will win no matter what. There is no challenge and therefor the game is not fun.

 

DO NOT ASK THEM TO DO THAT TO THIS GAME!

 

Thank you.

 

 

"MEATBAG ":eek: did he just call me a meatbag again for the 5th time today:rolleyes:.... "total annihilation "....we need to get this droid some new memory.......... " it is hopeless " that this will take more than 5 minutes...........i love watchin some cut scenes and raggin on the in-game conversations , makes me laugh all da time HK you my best friend !

[slafko]

Didn't read the entire thread, just stopped on the first page with everyone claiming GW2 was 'trinity-less'. Um. No it isn't. Whatever you guys are smoking I want some, because it must be good. The trinity is alive and well in GW2 and anyone who has done any of the dungeons knows this.

 

Ofcourse they are, that's one of the reasons I'm not touching that game with a 10 foot pole. I can't speak about the others, but I've mentioned GW2 to the OP only because of the game's utter and complete failure to provide the advertised no-trinity approach.

[Eurynamous]

Please remove this post and suggestion from the forums. This game is rooted in the traditional RPG formula that Bioware had honoured in one iteration or another for years. Why remove a strong staple that can make interesting mechanics possible?

 

Operator IX HM is a perfect example where team work and design are excellent in creating a challenge. Without these roles in place, how do you think this fight would have panned out? Just like GW2 where the Everyman for himself mentality gets you wiped. Do SM or EM dungeons in GW2 and notice that in order to actually succeed with ease, players embrace trinity.

 

There is nothing wrong with the trinity system, just an issue in front of the keyboard.

[Jrpm]

Replying to Tsillah from yesterday. (Cut and paste would get too big.)

 

The 'touch of reality' is the way you use tactics whether solo or in a team. War games (rpgs) are ways to find the different ways to reach a goal. Opening a peanut with a sledge hammer will work (dps only), but after a while you are Jack the Ripper (who apparently got bored and stopped) or Dexter (who I think is still at it...I am not a viewer.)

 

I am not saying something in a fantasy game has to exist in reality (although did you see the article on fox about how the Army is using primitive Star Trek replicators a level or so beyond 3d printing) but that there must be a touch of reality in the fantasy game. Reality of warfare at the tactical level has changed some since the pure medieval 'overwhelming force' most fantasy rpgs seem to thin in.

 

Sorcerer might be a ranger, but leaving the boss area resets some quests. That was what I was really saying. It used to be a ranger would fire their weapon once or twice, then run away to stop the target from catching them. When far enough away, fire gain, whittling down the targets health. Repeat until target dead. Quest/battle is not reset during the sequence.

 

"never compare mmo's with rpgs'..... I am a retired programmer. The same program structures apply in both cases. The fundamental difference to me is the capacity of the host computer. The SWTOR group is not that different from the Dragon age group. It is just that it is humans instead of AIs on the other three members.

 

And final rant, I view psychopathic killer is someone that enjoys the killing. I tend more towards sociopathy--killing as a tool can be useful, but is not always necessary or appropriate.

[SnoggyMack]

It used to be a ranger would fire their weapon once or twice, then run away to stop the target from catching them. When far enough away, fire gain, whittling down the targets health. Repeat until target dead. Quest/battle is not reset during the sequence.

 

What game was that?

[Never_Hesitate]

Op you don't speak for me as well:

I absolutely hate to dps, like to heal and love to tank.

[Halacs]

......No