Clickers.

[MariaD]

Binders don't have to do it as often (which is all the time for a clicker)

 

Peripheral vision works for most clicking. Also, with 1.5 second CDs, even if you glance at the bar directly, you have the rest 1.4 seconds to look around. That's 93% of the time. Human eye is very quick.

[Sleprock]

This is exactly the point. You need two DIFFERENT layouts for your characters. Some abilities are similar ("an opener") but it's a stretch to say you don't need different layouts, as some people claimed here. You do need different layouts, and you do need to remember them by heart with keybinding. While clicking provides visual clues.

 

I play six characters, most with dual specs (heals/dps or tank/dps), so this is too much to remember. I do bind common things, like interrupts and taunts.

y

The way i have it rigged now is every button bound is in the same spot on the quickbars across all characters, besides my original Main which is a healer, I've kept their interface because for one i only look now for cooldowns. But every new character gets the same cookie cut layout and binds.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Sleprock

[asbalana]

Correction:

 

1. You talk about not looking at your quickbars... how do you keep track of the cooldown of your abilities without looking at your quickbars? Everyone looks at their quickbars, binders and clickers alike.

 

 

I think that this is not totally true and game dependent. By game dependent I mean the responsiveness and quality of the combat system. The combat in that other game is so good that I developed a "feel" for the flow of ccmbat. I knew when the GCD was complete and I could fire off my next ability without looking. Procs appeared on the screen and I did not have to look at my bars to see when one hit. For longer GCD abilities, I did have to keep track to some degree but if I could get into a rotation, the abilites came up when they were supposed to and again I could feel them and did not have to check the bar. SWTOR still has ability delay, lag, and misfires and it is not possible to fight without keeping close tabs of the bars. I find less "feel" to the combat and often have to divert my attention from the fight to the bars to see what is ready to go.

 

I had always been a clicker and did pretty well, but started to use key binds a few months back. After a quick adjustment period, to me, there was no comparison in the speed that I could fire off abilities and in effectiveness in combat. I, for one, will never go back to clicking.

[DonkeyGobbler]

There’s a lot of sense written in this thread… along with a lot of rubbish. I’ve developed myself a hybrid system, which works well for me, using a Razer Naga. I simply see no point in binding something which has a long cool down and only gets used once or twice a fight. I cannot comprehend trying to memorise 30+ binds across my 8 level 50s, even when similar abilities are bound to the same key.

 

A lot of people coming into this game will be new to MMOs. They want to play a game comfortably not have to learn a complete new way of gaming which, in the short/medium term, will hamper their experience. I'm not levelling this accusation at the OP but plenty of people are quick to deride clickers as "noobs" without any real justification.

 

To the binders saying that clickers lack awareness by staring at their quickbars; you really believe that? Everyone looks at their quickbar area (unless you can somehow magically memorise cool down times and have no concern about buffs, de-buffs etc.). Looking at a quickbar doesn’t mean they’re completely incapacitated. Do you have no peripheral vision? I assume you don’t walk into lamp posts if you’re not staring directly at them…

Edited January 25, 2013 by DonkeyGobbler

[foxxecho]

This is exactly the point. You need two DIFFERENT layouts for your characters. Some abilities are similar ("an opener") but it's a stretch to say you don't need different layouts, as some people claimed here. You do need different layouts, and you do need to remember them by heart with keybinding. While clicking provides visual clues.

 

I play six characters, most with dual specs (heals/dps or tank/dps), so this is too much to remember. I do bind common things, like interrupts and taunts.

 

I too bind my interrupts, taunts, useables, etc the same on almost every character where ever applicable.

 

I think of it like every class/role has ability priorities so if I bind the highest/higher priorities in common places it becomes easier for me to manage across multiple characters.

 

Also keybinding can provide visual clues too. I guess the difference is a binder could just glance and hit a key but a clicker needs to glance and click.

Edited January 25, 2013 by foxxecho

[Altheran]

This makes no sense. I don't look at my keyboard. Move along.

 

edit: Read this, you may understand lol......-

 

byteresistor wrote this:

 

You can't turn with the mouse to your preferred direction while you're moving the cursor between abilities. If you clicked an ability and your next desired ability to use is to the left of it you are also forced to turn left if you apply your tactic, you can't go right and at the same time move the cursor to the left, so your free movement is limited to strafing. Binding does not have such a limit however insignificant you may think this limit is. No limits is still better than almost no limits.

 

And I can use my mouse without looking at my quickbars or the cursor. So no, I won't "move along" as it perfectly made sense.

Just as you exactly know over which key your finger is, I know of how much my cursor has moved on the screen with my wrist impulse. Even if it were to not be accurate, the cursor is moving somewhere in my line of sight, not in center of it, but it's sufficient for the brain to use this as an information just like people are able to notice a wild animal crossing the road when driving. If my sight goes to the quick bar, it will be for the reason as you : reading a CD. And you know that when you do so, you're able to "keep an eye" on what's happening on the middle of the screen (I assume you can, because I can).

 

By the way, the paragraph you quoted, has nothing to do with the fact that you assumed that you couldn't fight without looking constantly at the quickbar. Yes, keybinds can have its advantages about moving, but if it requires much more effort because you're absolutly not the kind of player which has affinity with things which require fingers coordination like piano playing, not sure that you will earn something in the end. Not everybody is this kind of people. So even if it has virtually no limitation, if it implies greater limitation from your own, it's not worth.

[Lionflash]

Pro Tip: Hybridize the two systems. Cooldowns are long enough to easily reach the right side of your screen for the more uncommon abilities anyway. Those who only keybind limit themselves to maybe a third of all the abilities they have available, which isn't exactly useful for your performance either.

 

Wait what? I haven't read this whole thread, so I don't know if anyone has responded to this but...

 

I keybind and I use all of my abilities. Why would keybinding limit the amount of abilities I use?

 

This is exactly the point. You need two DIFFERENT layouts for your characters. Some abilities are similar ("an opener") but it's a stretch to say you don't need different layouts, as some people claimed here. You do need different layouts, and you do need to remember them by heart with keybinding. While clicking provides visual clues.

 

I play six characters, most with dual specs (heals/dps or tank/dps), so this is too much to remember. I do bind common things, like interrupts and taunts.

 

I play 8 characters of different roles (tank, healer, dps) and I save each of their layouts on my G13

 

Just because it's harder to keybind and that it requires more effort to get used to doesn't make it bad. In fact that's why it's more effiencient and makes you a faster player.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Lionflash

[asbalana]

This is exactly the point. You need two DIFFERENT layouts for your characters. Some abilities are similar ("an opener") but it's a stretch to say you don't need different layouts, as some people claimed here. You do need different layouts, and you do need to remember them by heart with keybinding. While clicking provides visual clues.

 

I play six characters, most with dual specs (heals/dps or tank/dps), so this is too much to remember. I do bind common things, like interrupts and taunts.

 

Sorry to post twice, but I have to disagree with this as well.

 

I also have six characters with dual specs. There definitely is a relearning curve, but it not that bad. If I have not played a characher for a while, it does take a little while to get back into it. For example, I have been playing a Sorc for the last month and when I took my trooper out it was at first unfamiliar. But I went to an easy area and killed things for an hour and everything came right back and the character played as if I had never sat him on fleet for a long time to craft. I also play a sniper regularly and have no trouble switching up with my Sorc. My Jugg is another example. A half hour of play and he is back in form. I have healing, tanking, and dps characters and have no trouble switching back and forth.

 

The keybinds for a character get pushed to the back of your mind if you have not used them for a while. But they are there and come back quickly.

[MariaD]

Sorry to post twice, but I have to disagree with this as well.

 

I also have six characters with dual specs. There definitely is a relearning curve, but it not that bad. If I have not played a characher for a while, it does take a little while to get back into it. For example, I have been playing a Sorc for the last month and when I took my trooper out it was at first unfamiliar. But I went to an easy area and killed things for an hour and everything came right back

 

With clicking, it only takes me five minutes or so to get back to a character. I am sure it would take an hour or more with keybinding, at least for me. It may depend on whether your visual or motor memory is better. I have never played musical instruments, etc., so my motor memory isn't well-developed. I could exercise it for/by gaming, but it is what it is now. I am just using it as an example of differences between people.

 

This is not the point, though. Several comments were claiming you don't need different key layouts for different characters, and I disagreed. Here is one quote, for example:

 

That's not a limit, that's an excuse. Here's an actual pro tip: bind similar abilities to the same button across all classes. If your juggernaut has interrupt bound to mouse wheel down then why would you bind it to something else on your sniper? This frustration is not the result of keybinds but your failure to organize them sensibly.

[byteresistor]

Very wrong assumption.

 

If a keybinder has the mental dispostions to use abilities without looking at anything else than the action just because he knows what he's doing with his fingers, so the clicker has it too because he has the ability to know what he's doing with his wrist.

 

If you assume that a clicker can't make use of the mouse without looking at the bottom of the screen, so you have to assume that a keybinder can't use the keyboard without looking at his keys and fingers which would be even worse because he won't ever have the action in the side of his vision. You're a keybinder, so you know that this last assumption is false and so yours was false too.

That comparision doesn't work at all. Finger and wrist muscle memory aren't the same thing. For one you have an actual physical feel of your keys as a binder and not just a mental one. With the wrist you have a more vague physical feel of what you're doing. This is why most clickers bind most of their abilitis in a way that requires the least amount of wrist movement.

This is not the point, though. Several comments were claiming you don't need different key layouts for different characters, and I disagreed. Here is one quote, for example:

I made no such claim.

Edited January 25, 2013 by byteresistor

[Marmerus]

This is not the point, though. Several comments were claiming you don't need different key layouts for different characters, and I disagreed. Here is one quote, for example:

You do need a different layout but the example you posted was giving you tips on how to keybind. Telling you to bind your keys in a similar way between the characters.

For an example on ALL my characters I break CC on Shift X. I don't have to move my mouse across the screen and look at a bar and click on it. I know what button it is on ALL my characters and can instantly the very moment break the CC. That is something a clicker can never do.

 

Another example is spell interrupts on SHIFT F. This means I can ALWAYS interrupt my enemy without moving my mouse cursor across the screen and click on a box. I just do it instantly when I want. This means I can wait for the cast bar to reach 1.8 seconds before I hit the button to maximize the passiveness of my enemy. This is vital and one of the reasons why there has NEVER been a clicker in any WoW arena tournament. Because you need the ability to act instantly and not spend time moving your mouse cursor across the screen.

AND I know it on all my characters.

 

So in the end if you use similar keybinds on all your characters the most vital abilities every single class has you have already learned. So you know half your class already without ever playing it.

[Altheran]

Well, even if I'm clicking and I always defended clicking in games with reasonable GCD (not inferior than 1s), I'll admit this game has done something wrong that can hinder clickers : GTAoE.

 

They have been badly implemented, and although it can hinder every kind of players, it hinders clickers more. Instead of checking CD and GCD when firing the ability (when targetting the ground), it's checked when selecting the ability (when you want to make the floatting "target ring" appear). And so people can't queue the ability (understandable considering that the state of the fight evolves) but can't fire it instantly when avaliable either, as they have to wait before having the right to target...

Most of the time it's not so much an issue as most of the GTAoE users are ranged and have the GCD resetting while casting and so can select the AoE and target the ground while casting, but in the case of Balance Shadow or Madness Assassin who use no casts, unless the GTAoE has been keybinded, it's really hard to make it fire smoothly, or you'll lose a good amount of time. Even with keybinding everyone is bound to loose some time but less than a clicker.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Altheran

[MariaD]

You do need a different layout but the example you posted was giving you tips on how to keybind. Telling you to bind your keys in a similar way between the characters.

 

So in the end if you use similar keybinds on all your characters the most vital abilities every single class has you have already learned. So you know half your class already without ever playing it.

 

It's a good tip for a hybrid play. I bind interrupts, taunts, "target next" and finisher abilities. This is not, by far, "half my class" - more like 1/20th or so :-) Everything else I click, because I like my visual confirmations. If you bind all your main abilities, though, you need to remember them by character.

Edited January 25, 2013 by MariaD

[TwitchingFiber]

It's a good tip for a hybrid play. I bind interrupts, taunts, "target next" and finisher abilities. This is not, by far, "half my class" - more like 1/20th or so :-) Everything else I click, because I like my visual confirmations. If you bind all your main abilities, though, you need to remember them by character.

 

Remembering them by character is really not that hard...I just came back from swtor after being gone for 8 months. Played about 5 mins on ever character and knew where everything was again.

[Socialist]

Reason why I don't PvP.

 

It feels like a silly circus with the melees exectuing the 'Melee Dance' around each other. And when people aren't dancing, they are stunned.

 

This is PvP, dance, stun, dance, stun ad infinitum.

 

 

 

Still, clicking is a waste of seconds, even in PvE. But it is still a game, and if you don't care about losing a bit of DPS os missing a heal, more power to you.

[TwitchingFiber]

Reason why I don't PvP.

It feels like a silly circus with the melees exectuing the 'Melee Dance' around each other. And when people aren't dancing, they are stunned.

 

This is PvP, dance, stun, dance, stun ad infinitum.

.

 

Would you rather have an epic stand off Civil War style?

[Domatron]

My take is the major problem with clicking abilities is you can not effectively circle strafe. If you are playing any melee class in pvp this a huge disadvantage. Laying AOE abilities is also much quicker because you don't have to click the spell and then place your mouse. For things like throwing the huttball the 0.5 sec difference in getting off a throw can mean not getting it off at all.

[Altheran]

As well as I agree about the GTAoE part, while it wouldn't be a problem if BW had them implemented properly, there is this part :

My take is the major problem with clicking abilities is you can not effectively circle strafe.

 

Why ?

[Socialist]

Would you rather have an epic stand off Civil War style?

 

A Warzone with only Snipers would be the ideal place for me

 

As HK-47 said: Love is making a shot to the knees of a target 12 kilometers away using an aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope.

[Domatron]

As well as I agree about the GTAoE part, while it wouldn't be a problem if BW had them implemented properly, there is this part :

 

 

Why ?

 

You need to use your mouse to turn, especially if the target is not stationary, which is not possible if you are using it to click abilities.

[iamthehoyden]

Just a helpful hint, aka PROTIP, for everyone who clicks spells you are limiting yourself on how well/fast you are it would be more beneficial to you if you practiced using ALL keybinds (Well not all, but you get the point.)

I'm always curious in these conversations if anyone uses their keyboard for just about everything, like I do. That's movement plus pretty much every ability keybound (with usually a few extra slots for random stuff). (I can type really REALLY fast ). I play on a laptop cause sitting on the couch with the dog is comfy, and, of course, the mouse pad sucks royally for anything speed related so I've cobbled together this system.

 

I don't aspire to the tippy top of competitive gaming, and I know my set up isn't ideal, but it's surprisingly effective for pve. Pvp takes a bit more concentration, but it can certainly be done fairly well. The sheer number of keybinds available to you when using two hands on the keyboard is kinda crazy. Anyway, I was just curious.

[Altheran]

You need to use your mouse to turn, especially if the target is not stationary, which is not possible if you are using it to click abilities.

 

I know people don't like key turning, but straf + revert turn (left straf + right turn or right starf + left turn) does the same trick.

[Jeweledleah]

I'm sure its been mentioned already, but.

 

1.5 second global cooldown. no matter how fast you are at moving your fingers over various keys, you cannot out-type the global cooldown.

mouse turning makes the most difference, but its perfectly possibly to mouse turn when it matters and be a clicker.

 

key-binding is only more efficient if you are capable of typing without having to look at your keyboard.

 

there's no such thing as "always" when it comes to individual humans. for different people, different things work best. the same class can be a beast in hands of one person, and suck in hands of the other - not because they are awful players overall, but because playstyle of a particular class doesn't work with their personality/attitude.

 

the key is to find what works best for you.

[Domatron]

I know people don't like key turning, but straf + revert turn (left straf + right turn or right starf + left turn) does the same trick.

 

If you use a class that has to get behind people like a sin/shadow or an op/scoundrel the mouse turn will get you there faster with more control of direction. I'm not saying it's not doable with key turning but using the mouse is much more efficient especially if the target is moving.

[MariaD]

Remembering them by character is really not that hard...I just came back from swtor after being gone for 8 months. Played about 5 mins on ever character and knew where everything was again.

Your memory is much better than mine, then. I suspect it is different from person to person.