Clickers.

[MariaD]

If you think clicking is proficient, then you are mistaken. Sorry.

If you think it's not, you are mistaken.

 

Statements are a bit empty without any arguments, eh?

[Lionflash]

Anyone one jedi covenant want to get together and have clicking vs keybinding fights and see how it goes down?

 

As soon as Character copies begin on the PTS we should set up 2 guilds...

 

 

'The Clickers' VS 'The Keybinders' !!!

 

 

...and then we can settle this like children! :D

[Aramyth]

As soon as Character copies begin on the PTS we should set up 2 guilds...

 

 

'The Clickers' VS 'The Keybinders' !!!

 

 

...and then we can settle this like children! :D

 

lol Don't make fun!

 

That would be funny as hell though.

[Alpine]

Yes, it does. If you're looking at your action bar instead of the circles under your feet you're doing it wrong.

 

 

oh crud! That's what I'm doing wrong!!

[Alpine]

Seen through my eyes, moving forward with the up arrow, backwards with the down arrow, strafe left with the left arrow and strafe right with the right arrow while turning with my mouse is the undisputed best way to move. Period. You may not agree, but then again you're probably not left handed, nor do you suffer from a debilitating health ailment that directly influences your ability to quickly push the top level number keys and F keys. Several of you saying that you need to work on "muscle memory," but what about people like me that suffer Parkinson's disease and have diminished fine motor skills and movement? Keybinding is a SEVERE hindrance not an advantage to me, and all the arguing in the world won't change that fact. (unfortunately) Sliding a mouse to click is easier, and thus better for me.

 

 

Wow! I 100% relate to this.

[Bethmora]

I been a clicker through all my MMOs, everyone has their own style of play. This is kinda like 'Religion' your coming to my door and pushing your faith over mine. You key-binb i do not, but I do agree with some of what you said;)

 

So I've been checking a few swtor streams out lately, I've just recently come back from a long long break, 7+ months. I've decided to just re-level a whole new class to fully get back into the game.

 

So yeah, I'm amazed on how many clicker there are in this game...99% of them clickers are complaining about something, mainly because they got outplayed, or were just too slow because of clicking spells instead of actually using keybinds.

 

(I never complain if im outplayed)

 

Just a helpful hint, aka PROTIP, for everyone who clicks spells you are limiting yourself on how well/fast you are it would be more beneficial to you if you practiced using ALL keybinds (Well not all, but you get the point.) Watch videos, re-level a new class just to practice how you like your keybinds.

 

(i agree with leveling a new toon just to work on key-binding)

 

I know someone is going to post "I click and I don't have any issues" "I click and I know it's faster than keybinds" Well, you're wrong. Once you practice keybinding you will realize what you're missing out on. Also, once you get the hang of it, you will see a dramatic increase in your performance.

 

(as a clicker, I dont think its faster then key-binding, i just play my way)

 

Also, while clicking you are spending time looking at your spells more than you are looking at whats going on around you. You lose some awareness while clicking.

 

(I have a good set up with my rotation and where my skills are, i can move my mouse without really looking away from the fight)

 

Moral of the story clickers, please practice keybinding. It will help you out tremendously.

 

(well for someone who has been gone so long why do clickers bother you? i been here since beta and have never left. Im clicking and killing fine in PvP)

 

Love,

Twitchypoo

 

 

EDIT: This is a great post from a someone who clicks, with many great points. Can't really argue with this.

 

Quote: Originally Posted by Ooloi

Keybinding is a consequence of using mouse movement. Mouse movement is more efficient and particularly for melee in pvp provides a serious advantage over keyboard turning.

 

If you are using mouse movement, then you can continuously move around people who are trying to keyboard turn and click while you are spamming some number of keybinds, getting behind them.

 

Some people don't realize that while in PvE if you run behind something and then click it will still allow you to attack the creature without turning to face them, but in PvP you must be facing them. Anyone who can move out of the angle of your range of attack and keep moving can hit you constantly while you're trying to adjust and even 1-3 global cooldowns can mean you're dead and they're not.

 

Step one is to stop using left and right turns and only use left and right strafe. Step two is to not use the back-up key for movement in pvp. Step 3 is to starting using the mouse to move forward (you can click both right and left buttons simultaneously to move foward. Step 4 is to keybind some essential melee skills to keys that you can easily hit while you are moving around them.

 

The idea of starting a new character and learning to run around someone in a tight circle while hitting even a few basic keybound keys is a good one. How much you keybind after that is up to an individual's skill and reflexes.

 

I click, mostly, always have. In PvE it doesn't really matter in this game. In PvP, if you are melee it becomes essential when you are playing against so many people who do use mouse movement and keybinding, unless you just like to lose. I myself have a new character where I'm learning all this. My ranged characters in PvP have allowed me to be accepted amongst those of my peers who are better than I, but my melee post 50pvp toon is pretty awful and it impacts my dps and my ability to support my team.

 

Being open to new concepts and improvements in your play is a good thing. Sure, it's "just" a game, but it's fun to be competent, and allows most people to have a better time while they play.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Bethmora

[tman_ac]

I am a guy who is using a mix, meaning keybindings and clicking. My most important spells like interrupts and main damage abilities are on keybind, while I click the rest. Or better said skills with high cooldowns I do click. Sometimes it happens I only click cause it feels more relaxing from time to time.

 

What I personally don't like is that keybinders treat clickers like a worse class of players. I mean, you say we won't be competitive and blabla, so why do you even have to argue about it? If it's not your playing style and you think you are way better because you are using keybindings then just keep quite and enjoy being so much better.

 

Funny that this topic came up today when someone posted on my EC NiM Stormcaller&Firebrand Youtube vid:

 

 

It was our first kill and if you actually did not kill it before you know that you have to be really aware and don't do any mistake. So yeh, I did no mistake no matter I clicked.

 

Personally I think if clicking wasn't meant to be used it would not have made it into the game.

[byteresistor]

I have an Infiltration Shadow, but still I don't picture it since it's pretty easy to find the back of an opponent without even using the tools given in odrer to do it. I can't imagine an ever easier way.

In other words you have never tried keybinding to any great degree if you can't even picture the snenario. I'm sorry to say but you cannot compaire two things if you have only ever tried only one of them. And no, don't even dare to turn this argument back against keybinders because most (if not all) of them have been a clicker at one point so they have experience from both sides to make a valid comparision.

 

This goes for many clickers to be perfectly blunt, they're talking about something they don't have a clue about. I was there once myself, I made the same arguments even though I was in no position to judge something I was inexrerienced with.

 

Personally I think if clicking wasn't meant to be used it would not have made it into the game.

It's a tradition coming from older RPG's to please oldschool RP people. Some modern MMO's still have click to move but that doesn't mean it's on par with keybinding, or keyboard turning even.

Edited January 25, 2013 by byteresistor

[Xenith]

So I've been checking a few swtor streams out lately, I've just recently come back from a long long break, 7+ months. I've decided to just re-level a whole new class to fully get back into the game.

 

So yeah, I'm amazed on how many clicker there are in this game...99% of them clickers are complaining about something, mainly because they got outplayed, or were just too slow because of clicking spells instead of actually using keybinds.

 

Just a helpful hint, aka PROTIP, for everyone who clicks spells you are limiting yourself on how well/fast you are it would be more beneficial to you if you practiced using ALL keybinds (Well not all, but you get the point.) Watch videos, re-level a new class just to practice how you like your keybinds.

 

I know someone is going to post "I click and I don't have any issues" "I click and I know it's faster than keybinds" Well, you're wrong. Once you practice keybinding you will realize what you're missing out on. Also, once you get the hang of it, you will see a dramatic increase in your performance.

 

Also, while clicking you are spending time looking at your spells more than you are looking at whats going on around you. You lose some awareness while clicking.

 

Moral of the story clickers, please practice keybinding. It will help you out tremendously.

 

Love,

Twitchypoo

 

 

EDIT: This is a great post from a someone who clicks, with many great points. Can't really argue with this.

 

Quote: Originally Posted by Ooloi

Keybinding is a consequence of using mouse movement. Mouse movement is more efficient and particularly for melee in pvp provides a serious advantage over keyboard turning.

 

If you are using mouse movement, then you can continuously move around people who are trying to keyboard turn and click while you are spamming some number of keybinds, getting behind them.

 

Some people don't realize that while in PvE if you run behind something and then click it will still allow you to attack the creature without turning to face them, but in PvP you must be facing them. Anyone who can move out of the angle of your range of attack and keep moving can hit you constantly while you're trying to adjust and even 1-3 global cooldowns can mean you're dead and they're not.

 

Step one is to stop using left and right turns and only use left and right strafe. Step two is to not use the back-up key for movement in pvp. Step 3 is to starting using the mouse to move forward (you can click both right and left buttons simultaneously to move foward. Step 4 is to keybind some essential melee skills to keys that you can easily hit while you are moving around them.

 

The idea of starting a new character and learning to run around someone in a tight circle while hitting even a few basic keybound keys is a good one. How much you keybind after that is up to an individual's skill and reflexes.

 

I click, mostly, always have. In PvE it doesn't really matter in this game. In PvP, if you are melee it becomes essential when you are playing against so many people who do use mouse movement and keybinding, unless you just like to lose. I myself have a new character where I'm learning all this. My ranged characters in PvP have allowed me to be accepted amongst those of my peers who are better than I, but my melee post 50pvp toon is pretty awful and it impacts my dps and my ability to support my team.

 

Being open to new concepts and improvements in your play is a good thing. Sure, it's "just" a game, but it's fun to be competent, and allows most people to have a better time while they play.

 

If you're fast enough you can click through your rotation as fast as a key binder simply because there's a refresh window after you use almost every ability.

[byteresistor]

If you're fast enough you can click through your rotation as fast as a key binder simply because there's a refresh window after you use almost every ability.

Actually you can't. Some specs have abilities that are off the global cooldown. GL trying to click on two abilities at once. But nontheless while this may not be a huge issue in PvE, PvP is a different matter altogether, play a melee and the problem is twofold.

[theUndead]

I only mention it because I want to see more people succeed. And just fully clicking on all spells ( I didn't even mention key turning) limits someones playing ability.

 

I'm sorry but I disagree with you. I am a clicker mainly because I play on a laptop but the truth of the matter is I know very well that I can perhaps squeeze a little more dps if i used keybinds or that little bit extra threat or even a bit more heals but to say that keybinds alone will limit playing ability is simply wrong in my opinion. I click because it is the way I play and to me it works so I will not change what isn't broken.

[Altheran]

In other words you have never tried keybinding to any great degree if you can't even picture it. I'm sorry to say but you cannot compaire two things if you have only ever tried only one of them. And no, don't even dare to turn this argument back against keybinders because most (if not all) of them have been a keybinder at one point so they have experience from both sides to make a valid comparision.

 

This goes for many clickers to be perfectly blunt, they're talking about something they don't have a clue about. I was there once myself, I made the same arguments even though I was in no position to judge something I was inexrerienced with.

Look my posts. In none of them I said anything saying keybinding being bad or worse than clicking. In didn't claim anything about keybinding. Why ? Because I'm not a keybinder. I do not talk about something "I don't have a clue".

 

All my posts are about claims stating a clicker is always looking at the quickbar or some other assumptions like that. These assumptions are false. Here I talk of "something I know about".

 

And you know what ? When I'm bored in PvE and I have to travel distances, I move with the mouse, just like you, keybinders. And I don't feel any big differences. I said "I can't picture it" because after having tested this kind of movements I didn't felt it could bring me any kind of advantage, and as I find the said move already freaking easy for me it was just inimaginable that it could be even easier.

 

In my prevoious MMO tried keybinding, and disliked it.

On the same note, have you ever experienced a "ghost mouse" ? You know when it disappear and when you try to click somewhere by mentally visualizing where the cursor should be, but nothing occurs... Do you think I'll stay idle, waiting to die ? No, I'll use 1-12 and pester about quickbar #2 not having default binds.

And all the time, I use the keys 1-3 in addition of clicking. It's sufficient to keep short the area of use of my mouse and not lose time on travelling time.

But still I do not criticize keybinding, because I do not consider my-self as keybinder, or rather I know I'm not a keybinder, but still it's not like I do not know what it means and I respect the fact that some people can like it and be better at it. (If these kind of people wouldn't exist, there wouldn't be any pianists or organists)

What I find sad is people who say they have tested both, succed better at one, and then claim this one is better like an absolute truth. They don't ever consider that maybe they fit one more than another. Who is really able to judge that one setting is universally better for human beings ?

 

Even if I haven't tried to go full-keybinding yet on SWTOR, I know what it could bring me if I'd do. It's not rocket science that 10 fingers can press keys faster than a hand commanding a mouse. I'll never try to beat a typing person in a speed contest with a mouse and visual keyboard. But still, I won't try keybinding at the moment, and not because I'm opposed to it, but because here it doesn't matter because of GCD.

As long as I can click and have the red text "Can't be used at the moment", I know that a keybinder cannot be faster.

Oh yes, I know... "keybind is better because of movements"... You know what ? I said it earlier, i don't feel any improvements by moving with mouse (apart from turning without moving... but who is stupid enough to do it ?)

What I know is that I should do some insane efforts on my own because I'm the type of person who don't look at screen when typing right know and using only 1 or 2 finger per hand (+ left thumb sometimes for the space bar), and as a result, I'd have something really similar. No thanks.

 

You see, only now I made an assumption of something I haven't properly tested. Now and only now, you can blame me. I do not do these kind of assumptions just because I felt like it... I know my gaming style isn't perfect, but still it allows me to exploit the maximum that the game allows me to do. So, all the potentially better gaming style can't effectively perform better because of the game limitations. It's basic logic. And so saying it will increase performances, is not an absolute truth. It would be true for a game where there is no GCD or a so short GCD that it would need insane speed to keep in performance for a clicker. But that's not SWTOR's case.

 

 

Here another kind of response I usally do :

 

Actually you can't. Some specs have abilities that are off the global cooldown. GL trying to click on two abilities at once. But nontheless while this may not be a huge issue in PvE, PvP is a different matter altogether, play a melee and the problem is twofold.

 

Using 2 ability simultaneously won't get you very much further than with a 0.2s delay as the GCD for other abilities will remain unchanged.

(See, I didn't say it's useless, but that's better "marginally")

Edited January 25, 2013 by Altheran

[Darth-Rammstein]

I have a feeling that clickers are the reason pugs are so terrible in wzs. Edited January 25, 2013 by Darth-Rammstein

[Jetronin]

Meh.

 

As to clicking can never be as good.

 

I had a shammie in my guild in wow, she did the top Raid dps in the world according to WoL on most fights.

 

Guess what, she clicked.

 

Everyone works there own way. I have tried both. They are both valid.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Jetronin

[drfirewater]

seriously ... this is still on the first page of topics?

 

There isnt anything better to talk about then the age old agrument clicking vs binding?

 

I said it before i will say it again ... the second a game has GLOBAL COOLDOWNS and a 1 SECOND POWER QUEUE it makes this argument pointless.

 

Clicking is just as fast as keybinds in SWTOR ... get over it.

 

you can be just as aware as a clicker as you can a binder .... you can be just as fast... you can beat all the PVE content and be competitve in PVP....and further more ... and i cant stress this enough ... if you are using a more then 6 button rotation your doing it wrong ANYWAY.

 

keys 1-6 should be interupt and base rotation ... if you need more bindings then that your doing it wrong.

 

if you are not GOOD ENOUGH to click and walk at the same time then your right YOU should keybind. But the rest of us have no problem completing HM TFB and ranked/unranked PVP matches while using BOTH number binds and clicky together.

 

please kill this thread its so pointless.

[drfirewater]

I have a feeling that clickers are the reason pugs are so terrible in wzs.

 

no the reason pugs are so horrible in wzs is because there are people doing 8 man groupings in full warhero elite gear while pugs are going in solo queue to get there war hero gear while wearing PVE gear because the recruit pack isnt worth losing 350k for.

 

what they need to do is gear lock PVP so that you cant use war hero elite gear in unranked remove the ability to form groups of more then 4 for unranked and then allow people to solo queue for ranked. That will make the high geared epeeners go to ranked instead of 8 man group forming to gank in unranked.

 

Clicking has nothing to do with it ... on my sniper in half warhero gear i nearly always have top dps and good objective scores.

Edited January 25, 2013 by drfirewater

[Holinyx]

my best ability has a cast time of 1.5 seconds, giving me more than enough time to have the next ability going by clicking. your thread is invalid.

[Estriga]

You underestimate how many people aren't comfortable with pounding away on half the keyboard without looking. More so people like me in their 30's or older and didn't grow up with a keyboard and lived their youth before the tech boom. You could train yourself sure but it would take months before you really felt comfortable with it.

I can attest to this. I still have to look at the keyboard to do anything, but have managed to learn to play 50/50 (half binds, half clicks) thanks to my time spent raiding in WoW.

 

Remove backpedal totally. You shouldn't find yourself walking backwards. Use that key for something important since you're used to hitting it.

I disagree here. Sure, lolPvE and whatnot, but on the BH I'm currently leveling I usually snare melee enemies and walk backwards while shooting missiles and other stuff at them. I'm sure it'd be trickier when applied in PvP, but doesn't warrant removing that entirely. Well, unless strafing is better, even if it does rely on more open space.

[Kourage]

I clicked on the link to this thread. I am now a clicker.

[Aluc]

Maybe clickers could get away with PvE as far as leveling, but as far as operations go it can get pretty difficult since awareness will obviously not be on par with someone who has their spells bound to keys. And you really can't argue that because the player with keybinds will always have his/her eyes on what's going on around him/her. That's not to say you couldn't raid and be a clicker, but players that want to improve will inevitably realize that after you get used to where your keybinds are life becomes so much easier.

 

We don't even need to get into PvP.

Edited January 26, 2013 by Aluc

[MariaD]

Maybe clickers could get away with PvE as far as leveling, but as far as operations go it can get pretty difficult since awareness will obviously not be on par with someone who has their spells bound to keys. And you really can't argue that because the player with keybinds will always have his/her eyes on what's going on around him/her. That's not to say you couldn't raid and be a clicker, but players that want to improve will inevitably realize that after you get used to where your keybinds are life becomes so much easier.

 

We don't even need to get into PvP.

 

None of what you said is obvious or of the "can't argue" kind. Have you missed many people finding the opposite things true, in this very thread? It takes about .1-.2 seconds to glance at the bars, with the screen still quite there in your peripheral vision. It does not limit awareness.

[Beslley]

So I've been checking a few swtor streams out lately, I've just recently come back from a long long break, 7+ months. I've decided to just re-level a whole new class to fully get back into the game.

 

So yeah, I'm amazed on how many clicker there are in this game...99% of them clickers are complaining about something, mainly because they got outplayed, or were just too slow because of clicking spells instead of actually using keybinds.

 

Just a helpful hint, aka PROTIP, for everyone who clicks spells you are limiting yourself on how well/fast you are it would be more beneficial to you if you practiced using ALL keybinds (Well not all, but you get the point.) Watch videos, re-level a new class just to practice how you like your keybinds.

 

I know someone is going to post "I click and I don't have any issues" "I click and I know it's faster than keybinds" Well, you're wrong. Once you practice keybinding you will realize what you're missing out on. Also, once you get the hang of it, you will see a dramatic increase in your performance.

 

Also, while clicking you are spending time looking at your spells more than you are looking at whats going on around you. You lose some awareness while clicking.

 

Moral of the story clickers, please practice keybinding. It will help you out tremendously.

 

Love,

Twitchypoo

 

Excellent points.

I'd also like to add that even in PvE, if you keybind most, if not all, of your abilities, you will get much more from your character.

 

In PvP, clicking isn't even an option.

 

I currently play with a razer naga and I literally have EVERYTHING keybound to my mouse; I find this easier for me since I like to strafe with the keyboard while using the mouse to move.

 

This is an old youtube video, but still worth a look because maximising DPS is pretty much the same in any WoW-style MMO (which SWTOR solidly falls into).

Kripparrian knows what he's doing.

 

TL;DR Look, clickers. You are gimping yourself by clicking, full stop.

If you are arguing that clicking is as good as keybinding, then YOU ARE WRONG.

WRONG and you should stop calling yourself a good player because you are not one.

 

EDIT:

Okay clickers, how many of you PvE heroes have downed timed NiM Kephess? Please, enlighten me. If you're such hot s***, then have you cleared all current content?

 

SECOND EDIT: cut down on what I had quoted for easier reading.

Edited January 26, 2013 by Beslley

[byteresistor]

no the reason pugs are so horrible in wzs is because there are people doing 8 man groupings in full warhero elite gear while pugs are going in solo queue to get there war hero gear while wearing PVE gear because the recruit pack isnt worth losing 350k for.

I've seen plenty of bads in pure pug vs. pug. And this myth of people wearing PvE gear isn't as big of an issue as some make it out to be. You see maybe 1 person doing it every once in a while, it's not like they've infected every single WZ en masse.

 

if you are using a more then 6 button rotation your doing it wrong ANYWAY.

 

keys 1-6 should be interupt and base rotation ... if you need more bindings then that your doing it wrong.

The arguments for clicking just keep getting worse and worse.

Edited January 26, 2013 by byteresistor

[Beslley]

Rofl, some classes clearly have more than a 6-button rotation, not including cooldowns.

 

On my lightning sorc, the class with the LEAST amount of damage abilities that I play, I have 6 main dps abilities, 1 aoe spam, 4 dps cooldowns (relic, adrenal, recklessness, polarity shift), along with utility abilities that I also have keybound (aggro drop, unnatural preservation, heals, medpack, bubble, battle rez, cleanse, force speed).

 

I have even MORE dps abilites, cooldowns, and utility spells on my lethality operative and gunslinger. I have probably 15 keybinds at the least on the dps jugg that I'm leveling (currently level 29, lolsmash spec).

 

Sure, I could click all those abilities, but I'd gimp the hell out of myself if I did.

 

Again, this is why I absolutely love my razer naga. I like being able to pretty much hit all my keybinds with my thumb while using shift and ctrl modifiers for utility spells, along with some things keybound to my keyboard also (my aggro drop is F, R is force speed). That being said, keybinding is TOTALLLY doable without a fancy mouse. I had my one naga break a month ago and I spent two weeks playing with keyboard keybinds only while I ordered a new one. It was pretty rough the first day or so, but I adapted pretty quickly afterwards.

Edited January 26, 2013 by Beslley

[Jeweledleah]

I haven't been doing hard mode operations in SWTOR. its not because I'm incapable. its because I burned out on hardcore raiding before SWTOR was even released. I used to raid in WoW. I managed to get into couple of very good guilds, based on my performance in a pug, so I avoided the whole "show us screenshot of your UI" deal. at one point I raided on 2-3 characters per week (big mistake and the source of a burnout). they had no idea that I was a clicker. I was the hunter who could be relied on to trap stuff and keep it trapped (and that was before the trap launcher). I was the healer who was on a dispel duties, because I paid attention.

 

if I really REALLY wanted to, I could raid hardmodes in SWTOR well enough. I just no longer feel the motivation. to quote a certain fictional police detective: "I'm too old for this ****"

 

now. I don't pvp. that's not because I'm a clicker. its because I don't have an aggressive enough personality. I dislike confrontations. I dislike the tone of pvp. and my significant other, who is the only person I would brave pvp with, doesn't play SWTOR. but when world events were going on and I got flagged doing dailies, because I forgot to turn off one AoE ability on my companion (stopped using my own, because I KNOW how people can be with trying to trick you, I learned that back in WoW). I held my own against someone who was several levels higher then me. because the way I chose to utilize my UI and my peripherals doesn't affect my brain functions.

 

good player is not someone who plays one specific way and ONLY that specific way. that is a very narrow view to hold. good player is someone who understands their strength and weaknesses, who works with their limitations to maximize THEIR personal potential rather then trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, because someone told them they should. good player is someone who understands teamwork. most of us are not great players. and its absolutely fine. fixating on a single aspect of our playstyle? claiming that THIS is what it takes to be great?

 

lol