Lostpenguins Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Um... mmo are about pve, its about the story, what hapens to your toon, what happens when you beat a dlc, what happens when you beat a raid boss. Not about beating anther player. They add that stuff in to give you something to do when you get bord with the pve. And some even let you pvp most if not all the way to the max level but you miss the story with is pve Doesn't matter if the game is heavily pve. There's a pvp element to the game. You cannot deny this. Now, take a look at the HK quest. What portion of it is pvp? Is it all pvp? Is it half pvp? Is it even 10% pvp? You can try and make mmo's whatever definition you want... you cannot ignore that there's a pvp element to this game. The put some into this quest. Deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skiibyrd Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 pvp are just a small part, what drive mmo are the pve. So why force people who dont want to pvp to pvp. And yes it is a rpg, its a mmorpg durr! Because its now apart of the game, and it mixes up the gameplay, and keeps things interesting... Opposed to what you may think, the majority of the players in this game arent babies, and like the exciting change in gameplay, and dont cry about every little thing that "WE" feel is that they should have done. I mean seriously, I'm so sick of people being babies about everything, its like people think they are monkeys pressing keys when they program this game... they obviously do what will please the vast majority of players, to keep thier business. I almost wish they would intentionally do something bad, that would make all the QQer's of this game leave, the whole community would be way better off. This game is the best PC game i've played in awhile (ive logged more hours into this than i did WoW, Diablo 3, Guild Wars 2, and Starcraft 2), and its one of the leading MMO's right now, its so annoying to see the forums being all about people griping, instead of a mostly positive, inviting, and inspiring enviorment for both players and the Devs... so either suck it up, and quit your constant complaining, or just quit the game if you really dont like it much, go play whatever MMO or game you think is better than this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urael Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 (edited) Um... mmo are about pve, its about the story, what hapens to your toon, what happens when you beat a dlc, what happens when you beat a raid boss. Not about beating anther player. They add that stuff in to give you something to do when you get bord with the pve. And some even let you pvp most if not all the way to the max level but you miss the story with is pve This is not true. The first MMORPGS (and MUDS for that matter) were ALL ABOUT PvP. Look at UO for instance. It wasn't until $oE and EQ that MMORPGS took the PvE tact. This was a response to griefing and ganking in UO. Many of the "asian" models still follow the original while western models have moved to the hybrid paragim. MMORPGS are NOT only about PvE. While it is true that in many MMORPGS today PvP is treated as a "mini-game" it is still in as much focus (from an end game perspective) as PvE. Before you argue about the "leveling experience" being PvE, I submit that that is a separate game. It is to train you for the end game (either PvP or PvE) at least in the "theme park" settings. Edited November 16, 2012 by Urael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 (edited) Nothing is FORCED in WoW. Those are still OPTIONAL. You don't HAVE to get the Achievements if you don't want to do what is required. The same goes for HK-51. It is OPTIONAL as it has been stated ad nauseum in this thread. OPTIONAL OPTIONAL OPTIONAL OPTIONAL Its a good point, but I would point out a few things along that line of logic. Using gear is optional. Using abilities is optional. One can just use the basic manual attack for the entire game. Using companions is optional. Using almost all of the travel options is optional (in a few spots where you cant walk it is mandatory naturally) For that matter, playing the game is optional. Almost everything done in the game can be characterized as optional. That does not mean it is INFERRED that it is mandatory to do certain things in the game if you want to achieve certain things. The point made is whether or not, in this case, expecting players to likely participate, or at least have a chance to be forced to participate in a part of the game they do not desire to be involved in in order to achieve something in the game is really fair based on what that achievement represents. We are not speaking of a PVP companion. You cant even use companions in PVP. We are not speaking of PVP rewards. We are not even speaking of PVP ranks...we are speaking of a purely PVE companion. I wonder how the PVP community would feel if a portion of vital PVP equipment was located in an Operation or Flashpoint instead of a Warzone or normal PVP play. In other words, would PVP players find placing a vital chestpiece as a boss drop from an Operation or Flashpoint a fair thing to do? This is the point being made. A PVE companion that has no benefit in PVP should not be involved in PVP in any way, including requirements to acquire it. Nor should ANY PVE content for that matter require PVP participation. They are different types of play and should remain so IMO. I don't think this is terribly intrusive, but I do think it was a bit silly to put the vendor there. Edited November 16, 2012 by LordArtemis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostpenguins Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 This is not true. The first MMORPGS (and MUDS for that matter) were ALL ABOUT PvP. Look at UO for instance. It wasn't until $oE and EQ that MMORPGS took the PvE tact. This was a response to griefing and ganking in UO. Many of the "asian" models still follow the original while western models have moved to the hybrid paragim. MMORPGS are NOT only about PvE. While it is true that in many MMORPGS today PvP is treated as a "mini-game" it is still in as much focus (from an end game perspective) as PvE. Before you argue about the "leveling experience" being PvE, I submit that that is a separate game. It is to train you for the end game (either PvP or PvE) at least in the "theme park" settings. Also, the person who is complaining that this game's storyline has you pitted: Republic against Empire. It's in the very nature of this story to have the two sides warring. I could understand if one of the two factions wasn't playable... but obviously the two major factions in this game are playable... and they're at war. Congrats! PvP, right there, in the storyline! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crunchbarry Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 I say good riddens to you quiters over something so trivial. To typical players (ones who enjoy pve and pvp) this was a breath of life to the game. you guys are too carebear to quit anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xboblee Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Its a good point, but I would point out a few things along that line of logic. Using gear is optional. Using abilities is optional. One can just use the basic manual attack for the entire game. Using companions is optional. Using almost all of the travel options is optional (in a few spots where you cant walk it is mandatory naturally) For that matter, playing the game is optional. Almost everything done in the game can be characterized as optional. That does not mean it is INFERRED that it is mandatory to do certain things in the game if you want to achieve certain things. The point made is whether or not, in this case, expecting players to likely participate, or at least have a chance to be forced to participate in a part of the game they do not desire to be involved in in order to achieve something in the game is really fair based on what that achievement represents. We are not speaking of a PVP companion. You cant even use companions in PVP. We are not speaking of PVP rewards. We are not even speaking of PVP ranks...we are speaking of a purely PVE companion. I wonder how the PVP community would feel if a portion of vital PVP equipment was located in an Operation or Flashpoint instead of a Warzone or normal PVP play. In other words, would PVP players find placing a vital chestpiece as a boss drop from an Operation or Flashpoint a fair thing to do? This is the point being made. A PVE companion that has no benefit in PVP should not be involved in PVP in any way, including requirements to acquire it. Nor should ANY PVE content for that matter require PVP participation. They are different types of play and should remain so IMO. I don't think this is terribly intrusive, but I do think it was a bit silly to put the vendor there. Agree 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urael Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Its a good point, but I would point out a few things along that line of logic. Using gear is optional. Using abilities is optional. One can just use the basic manual attack for the entire game. Using companions is optional. Using almost all of the travel options is optional (in a few spots where you cant walk it is mandatory naturally) For that matter, playing the game is optional. Almost everything done in the game can be characterized as optional. That does not mean it is INFERRED that it is mandatory to do certain things in the game if you want to achieve certain things. The point made is whether or not, in this case, expecting players to likely participate, or at least have a chance to be forced to participate in a part of the game they do not desire to be involved in in order to achieve something in the game is really fair based on what that achievement represents. We are not speaking of a PVP companion. You cant even use companions in PVP. We are not speaking of PVP rewards. Were not even speaking of PVP ranks...we are speaking of a purely PVE companion. I wonder how the PVP community would feel if a portion of vital PVP equipment was located in an Operation or Flashpoint instead of a Warzone or normal PVP play. In other words, would PVP players find placing a vital chestpiece as a boss drop from an Operation or Flashpoint a fair thing to do? This is the point being made. A PVE companion that has no benefit in PVP should not be involved in PVP in any way, including requirements to acquire it. Nor should ANY PVE content for that matter require PVP participation. They are different types of play and should remain so IMO. I don't think this is terribly intrusive, but I do think it was a bit silly to put the vendor there. First you applied reductio ad absurdum wrongly. Second, HK-51 is just as much a PvP companion in fact at end game he is even more so if you think about it. In PvE most of your "end game" (dailies aside) is doing Operations and Flash Points which you don't get to take your companion into ( unless you are extreem soloing lower level ones that is). In PvP "end game" if you are trying to "generate" OWPvP you CAN use your companion. This arguement can go on and on and has in this thread. Nothing new is now being stated. YOU and your CAMP don't agree. I happen to side with the PvPers on this and I AM NOT A PVPER!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostpenguins Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 (edited) This is the point being made. A PVE companion that has no benefit in PVP should not be involved in PVP in any way, including requirements to acquire it. Nor should ANY PVE content for that matter require PVP participation. They are different types of play and should remain so IMO. I don't think this is terribly intrusive, but I do think it was a bit silly to put the vendor there. I doubt HK is really going to help you PvE any better than you currently can. His stats aren't better. He doesn't open up another slot to use for crew skills. So really, he doesn't benefit you in PvE other than having a toon with a different skin. And yes, he has benefit in PvP just as much as PvE. He's meant for solo-play. And you can certainly use him in Solo PvP. So if his combat abilities improve your PvE game (which would be solo PvE), then his combat abilities improve your PvP game (which would also be PvP). Edited November 16, 2012 by Lostpenguins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xboblee Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 I say good riddens to you quiters over something so trivial. To typical players (ones who enjoy pve and pvp) this was a breath of life to the game. you guys are too carebear to quit anyways. But the typical play dont do both, they ether focus on one or ther other. So why force it on both? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gruug Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 FORCED PVP? Really? This needs to change or I am done. I do not play MMO's for PvP. Remove the FORCED PVP or at least give an alternate method that is non-PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eillack Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Lethal Dose 50 was griefing for a crapton of time yesterday on Jedi Covenent...can't recall how long it took, but after no one came to be griefed they left and Republic and Imperial players peacefully went to the vendor. Tatooine was full of trolling by griefers too in chat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostpenguins Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 But the typical play dont do both, they ether focus on one or ther other. So why force it on both? Seriously... stop saying "force" as if you have no choice. This game isn't forcing you to PvP. Yes, you have to PvP to get HK-51... but stop saying your forced to PvP in this game. No, you're forced to experience possible PvP for some content in this game. Oh noes! /sarcasm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urael Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 FORCED PVP? Really? This needs to change or I am done. I do not play MMO's for PvP. Remove the FORCED PVP or at least give an alternate method that is non-PvP. Here is your alternative. Log in EARLY IN THE MORNING when noone is on ... scamper into the OLD buy the part and slink away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 First you applied reductio ad absurdum wrongly. Well, I would say that is arguable, but I wont press the issue Second, HK-51 is just as much a PvP companion in fact at end game he is even more so if you think about it. In PvE most of your "end game" (dailies aside) is doing Operations and Flash Points which you don't get to take your companion into ( unless you are extreem soloing lower level ones that is). In PvP "end game" if you are trying to "generate" OWPvP you CAN use your companion. This arguement can go on and on and has in this thread. Nothing new is now being stated. Well, if you can use your companion in PVP, even in a minute fashion than my argument would be mostly nullified in that respect. YOU and your CAMP don't agree. I happen to side with the PvPers on this and I AM NOT A PVPER!!!!!! I hope to god for their sake they are not my camp. That would not bode well for them lol. As many discussions as we have had Urael I think its pretty safe to say you know I am my own camp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FulkerS Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Its a good point, but I would point out a few things along that line of logic. We are not speaking of a PVP companion. You cant even use companions in PVP. We are not speaking of PVP rewards. We are not even speaking of PVP ranks...we are speaking of a purely PVE companion. I wonder how the PVP community would feel if a portion of vital PVP equipment was located in an Operation or Flashpoint instead of a Warzone or normal PVP play. In other words, would PVP players find placing a vital chestpiece as a boss drop from an Operation or Flashpoint a fair thing to do? 1. I would say that companions are neither pvp nor pve, they are just companions. 2. Your argument is a straw man. HK is not a vital piece of pve gear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xboblee Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Seriously... stop saying "force" as if you have no choice. This game isn't forcing you to PvP. Yes, you have to PvP to get HK-51... but stop saying your forced to PvP in this game. No, you're forced to experience possible PvP for some content in this game. Oh noes! /sarcasm Um..if your flag gose on when you are getting new conent that is force. Its not giveing you a choise of any other way of getting it. So if I am not mistake when you dont have a chose in something that is force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xboblee Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Here is your alternative. Log in EARLY IN THE MORNING when noone is on ... scamper into the OLD buy the part and slink away. Lol when I deside to do it that is my time to do it lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SumZed Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 First you applied reductio ad absurdum wrongly. Second, HK-51 is just as much a PvP companion in fact at end game he is even more so if you think about it. In PvE most of your "end game" (dailies aside) is doing Operations and Flash Points which you don't get to take your companion into ( unless you are extreem soloing lower level ones that is). In PvP "end game" if you are trying to "generate" OWPvP you CAN use your companion. This arguement can go on and on and has in this thread. Nothing new is now being stated. YOU and your CAMP don't agree. I happen to side with the PvPers on this and I AM NOT A PVPER!!!!!! ACTUALLY thinking you CAN, I tried to bring my Doc into the area... and it said "Companions are disabled"... no can do! you can't use companion even in OPEN WORLD PvP... so your point is moot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xboblee Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 ACTUALLY thinking you CAN, I tried to bring my Doc into the area... and it said "Companions are disabled"... no can do! you can't use companion even in OPEN WORLD PvP... so your point is moot WOOT So he is only pve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostpenguins Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Um..if your flag gose on when you are getting new conent that is force. Its not giveing you a choise of any other way of getting it. So if I am not mistake when you dont have a chose in something that is force Um... guess what. There's new PvP items in this game too. That's content. Your forced to PvP to get those as well. Why aren't you complaining about that? Oh right, because you don't care to get those things. Hence, you're only complaining because something you want requires you to do things you don't want to do. However, no where in this game are you forced to get HK-51. He's an optional companion. It's your choice to actively acquire him. You choose to. Hence, you choose to complete the quest. Hence you choose to move into the PvP area. Congrats. You chose to. You weren't forced to. You chose to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xboblee Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 Um... guess what. There's new PvP items in this game too. That's content. Your forced to PvP to get those as well. Why aren't you complaining about that? Oh right, because you don't care to get those things. Hence, you're only complaining because something you want requires you to do things you don't want to do. However, no where in this game are you forced to get HK-51. He's an optional companion. It's your choice to actively acquire him. You choose to. Hence, you choose to complete the quest. Hence you choose to move into the PvP area. Congrats. You chose to. You weren't forced to. You chose to. To get him I am force to do pvp durr. Not my choice. And pvp content os for pvp and not pve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostpenguins Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 ACTUALLY thinking you CAN, I tried to bring my Doc into the area... and it said "Companions are disabled"... no can do! you can't use companion even in OPEN WORLD PvP... so your point is moot Are you sure about that? Cuz I've definitely killed plenty of Pubs on my guy while questing in Ilum. So yes, you can use companions for PvP. You just can't in Outlaws Den because it's considered an outside warzone. So... his point still stands and you're wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordArtemis Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 1. I would say that companions are neither pvp nor pve, they are just companions. It was pointed out to me that you can use companions in certain types of PVP. So I stand corrected on that point. 2. Your argument is a straw man. HK is not a vital piece of pve gear HK is just as vital as any other companion. It is an argumentative point, as vital as any piece of PVP gear could be perceived to be, which is also naturally argumentative. Since the stated premise does support the proposed conclusion in that respect, I contend that you may need to touch up on how exactly a strawman argument would be defined. At the very least it would be best to understand the argument instead of judging it a failure based on a lack of intuition for it's intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urael Posted November 16, 2012 Share Posted November 16, 2012 (edited) Are you sure about that? Cuz I've definitely killed plenty of Pubs on my guy while questing in Ilum. So yes, you can use companions for PvP. You just can't in Outlaws Den because it's considered an outside warzone. So... his point still stands and you're wrong. ^This. Not to mention all the OWPvP on Tatooine (not in OLD) and Hoth (at least on Shadowlands)! Edited November 16, 2012 by Urael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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