Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

[Comfterbilly]

I'd also like to see the removal of double-queueing Ranked and Regs. Often times you'll get half (if not all) of the rated team as your opponents while they wait. Force them to make the choice. It would serve as a deterrent from what we are currently seeing. .

 

That's a really good idea. Actually your whole post was one of the best posts ever.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Comfterbilly

[Doomsdaycomes]

I spent the last 2 hours or so reading all the posts in this thread. I can comfortably say (and I've said it before) that most don't have an issue with the "casual" premade. The issue lies with the "competitive" premade. Unfortunately it's sometimes difficult to draw a distinction, and you get what we have here.

 

...

 

 

I'd like to see it sorted, because as-is there is definitely a very large issue.

 

Unfortunately, yes. Any kind of group-sized solution to weed out the "ranked 4-man" is going to effect groups in general. If you remove or let the "solo" player opt out of the chance to be pitted against groups, it's going to hurt Average Jo(e) and her/his 3 pals as much as the "Ranked" groups.

 

I also believe it's a multi-solution needed fix. Some of it is on bioware, and some of it is on the players. Bioware's part needs to be matchmaking, fixing bugs, etc... And players need to take it upon themselves to get better. This is to the PuG'er who can't be bothered to learn some basic coordination and tactics, and this is to the "Ranked" 4-man's that are content to sit idle in regs (though they are much fewer and far between then I think some here would have you believe).

 

All in all, we need an inclusive solution that targets the problem, but has some standards/level of minimum effort needed to play.

[TridusSWTOR]

Same example:

 

3 good premades and 4 pugs, split queue's.

 

Not enough Premades for a pop, no game.

 

Not enough PuGs for a Pop, no game.

 

Glad you support no one getting to play.

 

Tridus,

 

Defend why a solo-only option is the solution. Balls in your court, prove you're the "better" debater.

 

You didn't address my point, because you can't. Until you address, I'll address yours. Learn to debate, this is just basic's.

 

Keep up.

[Doomsdaycomes]

You didn't address my point, because you can't. Until you address, I'll address yours. Learn to debate, this is just basic's.

 

Keep up.

 

Tell me why solo-only option is the best solution. Show me your evidence, you made the first claim, not me.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Doomsdaycomes

[TridusSWTOR]

that is absolutely irrelevant to how a matchmaking algorithm would work.

 

if you have a poor PvP population now, what do you think splitting that population further with a solo only queue will do to queue times?

 

a proper matchmaking algorithm (which is nowhere near as complicated as most folks believe), would slowly expand the search criteria to speed up queue pops. ie, for the first 2 minutes youre in the queue it tries to find others with rating +/- 10% of your own for you to play with/against. after 2 minutes, it removes the criteria and groups you with the next available players in order to get you into a match quickly.

 

 

if you have poor queue times now, its because you dont have enough players on your server. and nothing short of cross server queues (which will NOT be happening in this game in the near or distant future) will improve your queue time. i suggest transfering to an actual PvP server if you want active WZ queues.

 

A.K.A. You will still get lopsided matches in a low pop server.

 

Hey though, their selling point is you still get a match. Kinda benefits one side on that one doesn't it? So much for pro-premades wanting balanced matches.

[TridusSWTOR]

Tell me why solo-only option is the best solution. Show me your evidence, you made the first claim, not me.

 

Still can't address my point.

 

If you can't, then I accept that you concede on this topic and have failed.

 

It wasn't really that hard but I guess I was hoping for too much from you.

 

You got one more post. Good luck.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Still can't address my point.

 

If you can't, then I accept that you concede on this topic and have failed.

 

It wasn't really that hard but I guess I was hoping for too much from you.

 

You got one more post. Good luck.

 

We're done.

 

If you really wanted a debate, you'd lay your evidence on the table.

 

Every time you post anything that contributes nothing, has a hint of an insult, or is baiting, you will be reported. Thanks for playing.

[Sziroten]

solo-only option is the best solution

 

those who say (not you in this case) let's queue solo... no issue getting into the same game as individual listings so the "issue" didn't get fixed at all.

[cashogy_reborn]

I spent the last 2 hours or so reading all the posts in this thread. I can comfortably say (and I've said it before) that most don't have an issue with the "casual" premade. The issue lies with the "competitive" premade. Unfortunately it's sometimes difficult to draw a distinction, and you get what we have here.

 

I do not believe that most premades are of the "competitive" type. In fact, I'd venture to say that there are maybe 6 or 7 groups that are "competitive" on Pot5 that queue regs, and mostly it seems they queue regs while they wait on a Ranked WZ to pop. Whatever the solution, it needs to be comprehensive. It can't be just matchmaking, and it can't be just a toggle. It needs to be smarter and more adaptable than that.

 

A mix of both, and maybe some form of stimulation for the Ranked tier could be the solution. If you give these "competitive" teams a place to be competitive, I assume it would alleviate a great deal of the frustrations that the solo-queuer experiences. I'd also like to see the removal of double-queueing Ranked and Regs. Often times you'll get half (if not all) of the rated team as your opponents while they wait. Force them to make the choice. It would serve as a deterrent from what we are currently seeing.

 

Understand that for any of this to work, all of it has to work. Removing double-queues won't work unless you stimulate Ranked, and stimulating Ranked won't work unless you give people a reason to do them. Matchmaking won't work by itself initially until everyone has an established range (hopefully it would be a dynamic rating), and you can't accurately assess a player's skill range unless you put them in a setting where all other things are equal, which is where the solo-only toggle comes in.

 

I'd like to see it sorted, because as-is there is definitely a very large issue.

 

this is a good post, and i agree with all of it.

 

A.K.A. You will still get lopsided matches in a low pop server.

 

Hey though, their selling point is you still get a match. Kinda benefits one side on that one doesn't it? So much for pro-premades wanting balanced matches.

 

yes, b/c it is a low-pop server. with a solo-toggle or a separate solo queue, on a low pop server you are going to seem extremely long queue times; that is not a reflection of the queuing/matchmaking mechanics but on the population. and sadly there is no way to increase the population, so the argument is moot. but why would we be using a low-pop server as the measuring stick with this? especially with transfers now available; if you dont like the server you are on you now have a viable option to move to another one.

 

if there is to be a solution to this issue that will benefit all parties involved, more civil discussion needs to take place. which means more ideas/suggestions, less name-calling and sarcastic remarks.

[maverickmatt]

I spent the last 2 hours or so reading all the posts in this thread. I can comfortably say (and I've said it before) that most don't have an issue with the "casual" premade. The issue lies with the "competitive" premade. Unfortunately it's sometimes difficult to draw a distinction, and you get what we have here.

 

I do not believe that most premades are of the "competitive" type. In fact, I'd venture to say that there are maybe 6 or 7 groups that are "competitive" on Pot5 that queue regs, and mostly it seems they queue regs while they wait on a Ranked WZ to pop. Whatever the solution, it needs to be comprehensive. It can't be just matchmaking, and it can't be just a toggle. It needs to be smarter and more adaptable than that.

 

A mix of both, and maybe some form of stimulation for the Ranked tier could be the solution. If you give these "competitive" teams a place to be competitive, I assume it would alleviate a great deal of the frustrations that the solo-queuer experiences. I'd also like to see the removal of double-queueing Ranked and Regs. Often times you'll get half (if not all) of the rated team as your opponents while they wait. Force them to make the choice. It would serve as a deterrent from what we are currently seeing.

 

Understand that for any of this to work, all of it has to work. Removing double-queues won't work unless you stimulate Ranked, and stimulating Ranked won't work unless you give people a reason to do them. Matchmaking won't work by itself initially until everyone has an established range (hopefully it would be a dynamic rating), and you can't accurately assess a player's skill range unless you put them in a setting where all other things are equal, which is where the solo-only toggle comes in.

 

I'd like to see it sorted, because as-is there is definitely a very large issue.

 

I'm quoting myself here to make an amendment that I thought of while trying to sleep (this is how involved in the solution I have let myself become).

 

I believe this was referenced before by a few other posters, so it's not an original idea but it doesn't really matter where it originated.

 

To be clear, Ranked Warzones need to be addressed first and foremost. If you kickstart that, you may very well have resolved a good portion of the issues with regs. Server transfers were the first step in the right direction, and now we need a Ranked ladder system and at least Season 1.

 

Secondly, the matchmaking system should not only take into account your personal rating, but your Ranked Warzone rating if applicable. This would be extremely handy if you make the system do what it needs to do, and that is match premade vs. premade and filling in with PuGs. It would help the casual groups tremendously, because it would be unlikely that they would face a "competitive" premade. It would also remove the need for a solo option, because teams would be more balanced and have a collective skill rating that is roughly equivalent.

 

Obviously this is not without it's faults (what happens if there is only one premade in the entire queue?). The matchmaker would also need to know when to default back to first available, but it would need to be more than 5 minutes.

 

If anything is going to work, the playerbase has to give it the chance to work. You will likely see increased queue times, just as you will likely still get facerolled until the system has enough data to begin operating as intended.

 

Between this amendment and my original post, I think it's a comprehensive solution that could work and would pacify at least the majority. Please, feel free to adjust, amend, or rip apart these ideas. They are by no means perfect.

[cashogy_reborn]

I*snip*.

 

thats basically what ive been advocating.

 

RWZ needs to be more attractive/accessible. that will get a lot of the top groups out of regs. then you throw in a good matchmaking system, and you will see the quality of matches improve over time (no good fix is gonna be an overnight thing).

 

i think that a solo-only toggle for regs would complement the matchmaking system well. i do think that restricting rewards slightly for solo-only matches would be necessary tho; players need a reason to want to queue in the regular bracket.

[Comfterbilly]

i think that a solo-only toggle for regs would complement the matchmaking system well. i do think that restricting rewards slightly for solo-only matches would be necessary tho; players need a reason to want to queue in the regular bracket..

 

This is what I don't get. I would have just as much fun playing if everyone had buckets on their heads, so the whole idea of having gear to hold over solos head seems just spiteful. What I love is the thrill of combat, if I win because of petty gear advantages over the other player, that's almost an insult to the winner. No?

 

If the motivation is supposed to be "I get more comms than you so I have more gear than you so my hits do more DPS to you and your hits do less DPS to me", I mean that's a kind of player who is only going to be motivated by being allowed to have a position where he can beat up weaker people.

 

Don't get me wrong, with the solo-only toggle I could literally care less, but that ^ is what the bonus comms idea reads as, to me. Make it a comms bonus of no more than 8% and I could pretend it wasn't even there and nevermind about the rest.

[akabane_k]

thats basically what ive been advocating.

 

RWZ needs to be more attractive/accessible. that will get a lot of the top groups out of regs. then you throw in a good matchmaking system, and you will see the quality of matches improve over time (no good fix is gonna be an overnight thing).

 

i think that a solo-only toggle for regs would complement the matchmaking system well. i do think that restricting rewards slightly for solo-only matches would be necessary tho; players need a reason to want to queue in the regular bracket.

 

easiest way to improve rwz participation would be ingame voice-chat and queuing with 4 people. Eventually cross-server, but that doesn't seem to be coming anytime soon. They could also take out the conversion between normal and ranked comms, but that would do more harm than good in the long run.

[maverickmatt]

easiest way to improve rwz participation would be ingame voice-chat and queuing with 4 people. Eventually cross-server, but that doesn't seem to be coming anytime soon. They could also take out the conversion between normal and ranked comms, but that would do more harm than good in the long run.

 

4 man queues would be good, but I think class balance would need to be looked at to ensure that it was accessible to all no matter the class or spec.

 

As far as in-game voice server goes, I think that would be neglected by some and abused by others. With the right implementation and restrictions I think it could work.

Edited June 26, 2013 by maverickmatt

[Sharee]

4 man queues would be good, but I think class balance would need to be looked at to ensure that it was accessible to all no matter the class or spec.

 

Well, they are adding arenas, so they'll have to address this particular issue sooner or later anyway.

[maverickmatt]

I'm going to vent, because it pertains to everything we are discussing in this thread and it just happened.

 

It's Pot5....It's Novare... I see when the gate drops there are only 6 of us. When we get to mid, I cycle through targets to find healers and mark them. That's when I notice that it's a double premade of known ranked groups. I thought, "no biggie. We'll get backfilled and maybe have a shot, because at least 4 of the 6 in this group I've run with before and they're good players." ..... sigh.

 

Unfortunately it never backfilled (probably because of low population at the time) and we got rolled. It wasn't enough that we lost badly. At the end of the match they had to /say and insult us. Nevermind that we only had 6 the whole match, and nevermind that they are "competitive" groups, they had to take it further because we were not on their level.

Objectively I can say that it's a game and it happens, and we need to work together to get this resolved. However, at the time they were /say, I wished that a gas truck would come rumbling through their neighborhood and run them over. I can say that these guys definitely were not legends, and that there are far better SW characters than Revan and his legacy.

 

 

I tell you that story to say that this is how I imagine many players feel when it happens to them.

Edited June 26, 2013 by maverickmatt

[Sziroten]

I'm going to vent, because it pertains to everything we are discussing in this thread and it just happened.

 

It's Pot5....It's Novare... I see when the gate drops there are only 6 of us. When we get to mid, I cycle through targets to find healers and mark them. That's when I notice that it's a double premade of known ranked groups. I thought, "no biggie. We'll get backfilled and maybe have a shot, because at least 4 of the 6 in this group I've run with before and they're good players." ..... sigh.

 

Unfortunately it never backfilled (probably because of low population at the time) and we got rolled. It wasn't enough that we lost badly. At the end of the match they had to /say and insult us. Nevermind that we only had 6 the whole match, and nevermind that they are "competitive" groups, they had to take it further because we were not on their level.

Objectively I can say that it's a game and it happens, and we need to work together to get this resolved. However, at the time they were /say, I wished that a gas truck would come rumbling through their neighborhood and run them over. I can say that these guys definitely were not legends, and that there are far better SW characters than Revan and his legacy.

 

 

I tell you that story to say that this is how I imagine many players feel when it happens to them.

 

Yet the refill is to blame, not facing a premade as insults are thrown not only by them. If it makes them feel better it makes them look stupid in the same way.

[maverickmatt]

Yet the refill is to blame, not facing a premade as insults are thrown not only by them. If it makes them feel better it makes them look stupid in the same way.

 

Oh I agree completely. I just wanted to give an example to sort of justify the bad taste that premades have left in the mouths of Puggers, not to recant on my previous posts of solutions. I know they are not the only ones.

[akabane_k]

Oh I agree completely. I just wanted to give an example to sort of justify the bad taste that premades have left in the mouths of Puggers, not to recant on my previous posts of solutions. I know they are not the only ones.

 

And then there are the pugs who spend all game whining in gen chat about how horrible their team is, when they are the ones not doing anything. Neither side has a monopoly on idiots.

[Catharian]

I support a solo que option/toggle. The reason is simple. Fairness.

You want to group up? cool.

You want to solo que? cool too.

Splitting the ques makes it so you play against like-minded people who want to do the same thing you do.

 

I've been playing since launch. I used to be in a fairly decent guild on a pre-merge server. We ran ranked. We won some; we lost some. I ran in 4 man teams for months. I almost only solo que now. I know how to play. I'm not a "baddie". I'm not the best player in the world either, but I'd like to think I can hold my own on any of my toons. I miss the early days when good games happened alot more than they seem to do now. You know the memorable games you talked about in guildchat or in general? Now it seems to just be stomp or be stomped, and I'm saddened by the change.

[HuaRya]

One of the most painful rewards of accumulating valor over 90 is that the matching system seems to almost always match your solo pug team against a premade. If it's a random coincidence then it happens at least 50% of the time. You inspect the people on your team and they are wearing green gear (chest, legs, implants) and arkanian relics ( yes we know they don't proc in pvp).

 

It's at these moments of realization that the veteran pugger loses interest in the game.

[MotorCityMan]

i think that a solo-only toggle for regs would complement the matchmaking system well. i do think that restricting rewards slightly for solo-only matches would be necessary tho; players need a reason to want to queue in the regular bracket.

 

Except this makes the value judgment that premades are a higher priority than solo. You could just as well offer players more rewards to choose the solo option so that their regular warzones get filled. 7 solos need an 8th just as badly as a team of 4 + 3 premades do.

 

Premades already have a queue where they can earn more comms. Ranked.

 

Shift the responsibility for making an even numbered team where it should be, with the premades. Because some jokers decide to form a 3 man team the entire solo queuing population of SWTOR has to get less comms to make up for them not bothering to get a 4th? or have a person sit out so they are a 2? Seriously? Wouldn't it be fairer and simpler just to have the queue not accept a 3 ?

 

I would rather just eliminate the choice. Install Blizzard's system of matching group vs group, solos with solos, and filling in group with solos if need be. Yes on occasion a person that preferred solo play would play in the group warzone, but I think that if the net result was more group on group and solo on solo play, people wouldn't complain too much. Not as much as they might getting jipped some comms.

Edited June 26, 2013 by MotorCityMan

[paowee]

as a solo q'r i feel your pain!

[AlrikFassbauer]

Well said.

 

Case in point. On my server guild ranked is dead. Because with gear and communication being equal skill differences lead to predictable outcome, making guild with less good players have no chance vs better guilds so they don't even try anymore.

 

This sounds logical to me.

 

It's not about classes any more, it's quite balanced rock-paper-scizzors-lizzard-spock

 

I like that !

[MidichIorian]

Like I've said before, the problem is skill and premades are only making it worse.

 

Well, transfers increased the problem since most PvP teams transfered to specific servers. That means more premades in rotation and even if both sides have one they're rarely equally good. So the outcome of games are even moreso determined before the game has actually started. It doesnt help that basically every pub game on tofn now is a same faction game and you're able to see who you're up against. Discouraging is what it is and boring. You play two games just to go "screw this".

 

So either seperate groups from solo players or add skill ratings.

Edited June 26, 2013 by MidichIorian