DarkHelsing Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 (edited) This is another rant. Patch 1.2 made me hate a game I loved so much during beta and after launch. I quit shortly after patch 1.3 came out, but returned just before patch 1.4 because leveling in this game is still amazing compared to other mmo’s out there. But my love and my passion is PvP. Pre-patch 1.2 had an amazing PvP system that merely needed some tweaks. BioWare gave us a Gem at launch, a gold mine. It was beautiful, it needed to be polished and cleaned up a little bit, but it was a Gem, a Gem of PvP goodness. Instead of polishing that Gem, or work on giving us more Gems in the form of more content; Patch 1.2 totally replaced that Gem with a Rock. Now BioWare is trying to polish the Rock while players beg for the Gem back. They presented us with a Gold Mine but desperately try to sell us dirt. During beta in-game surveys prompted players all the time, that information provided by the player base turned into a great launch, with PvP class balance that was raved about in reviews all over the web. Instead of tweaking talent point trees to provide love to the classes that still needed it; they changed the core mechanics in patch 1.2... the core mechanics. It hasn't been the same since, and it never will be because BioWare is continuing to try and polish a rock and then sell us said Rock, while those of us that got to be a part of the Gem wish for its return. Key points - SWTOR PvP was focused on the player behind the keyboard. Now it's focused on the class, build, and gear the player has. How many of us PvPers downright sigh in our chairs when we see our team is filled with players all under 15k health? A ton of players just outright leave the WZ and re-que when they see that. How many times have you clicked on an enemy and saw 15.7k HP and giggled because you knew your gear advantage was going to destroy that player? I hear it in vent and mumble all the time. Class balance. Minus some love needed to a few builds, like Op-healer and Trooper-tank for example, the classes were well balanced prior to patch 1.2, back when we had the Gem. Some things were OP, like Concealment dps builds; all tweaks that could have been made in the talent tree. So instead they change the core mechanic, and the person/people responsible for that need to be fired. Operatives and Scoundrels got the worst hit imo, for a game that's "trying" to balance classes, they nerfed the heck out of the only class that has no gap closer, and/or no knockback, and/or no sprint (ghost doesn't make you sprint, while in combat it makes you run as if you were not in combat)... basically a burst dps class with little utility compared to the other classes with tons of utility just had their burst dps removed. I know, a well played Scoundrel or Operative can still be lethal... but any class well played can be lethal... the problem is while a well played Operative needs to be run like Jimmy Hendrix ripping his guitar for the national anthem - other classes can be played by head-butting the keyboard and top dps charts. The reason PvPers are passionate is because our class isn't being compared to how well our tank and healer are doing while a stupid bot slams out the same attacks over and over... it's pretty easy to tell when that is broken, you either can't win the fight, or there's no reason to even have the fight because it's so easy. PvPers take pride in PvP because they are not defeating a scripted event, they are defeating another player’s skill. PvPers get caught up in a couple different mindsets... One is, when a class isn't properly balanced and licking the keyboard will faceroll anyone you come up against; when that finally gets addressed what happens is play-styles need to be changed for the class. This means if you loved the previous play-style and now that play-style is no longer valid, you just lost your beloved character that you invested your time in. The only real way to deal with this is, to not have Flavor of the Month classes to begin with, something patch 1.2 introduced. When that is done, thank you patch 1.2, you fix it by slowly trickling down incremental updates, allowing players to adjust one small issue at a time, while apologizing for the screw up. Two is, when gear isn’t properly balanced and mushroom stamping the keyboard tops the dps charts, the players that learn how to defeat you because they learn how to play their worse geared character like a symphony orchestra, when they finally get to the same gear level as you they destroy your face, and people cry OP. Easy to fix, there’s no reason to have a gear gap. PvP can reward gear just empty husks, different designs, legacy gear… or the gear gap can simply be next to nothing. There is literally no reason for a drastic gap in gear other than to punish players trying to close the gap. Three is, class balance isn’t about every class being able to kill every class if all things are equal. When Player A cannot kill Player B, they complain that Player B has an OP class. The number one key defusing argument to that is…. How many healers crank out the dps and kills? If every class is suppose to be able to kill every class, then Healers would reign supreme, in every way, every game, always. Class balance should be designed around certain classes for certain things. With that, some classes would be better suited at killing other classes, creating a circle of balance. Within that circle, different builds become viable to accommodate different play-styles; if you build a glass cannon, you can crank out the dps, but now you have to be within melee range where you can be targeted and destroyed quickly. You want to have all ranged, then you get single target CC’s all over the place, but dps is lower to accommodate your safety from afar. You want to be a dps tank, that should mean the more people you have beating on you, the more powerful you become till death, but one on one would by your Achilles. (those are all just off my head examples to paint a bigger picture is all) Class balance is whatever build you choose, it is viable and playable to your style, and there is another build out there better suited to handle you, and a build out there that you are really suited to handle better. Four is, addressing the players. Players need to be addressed in these issues, there needs to be info on the main swtor site, videos, posts, whatever, explaining that they’ve heard certain outcries, and these are swtor’s findings. BioWare will never win with this one, but addressing the player base directly allows players to know that they are being heard… and that goes a really long way. Simply stating “we listen to our players” then rambling off that the next patch will be amazing; that don’t cut it. One issue – One video addressing it. PvP and Sorcs/Sages – Video discussion. PvP and Assassins/Shadows – Video discussion. Etc. You want to make a change… like adding “Ghost” to operatives… put it up on your main site, Poll – talent tree change to Operatives, ideas are “Ghost – Explanation” “Blah – Explanation” “Blah3 – Explanation” etc, what do our concealment operatives think? If you do or do not listen to your players, not addressing them on a constant and consistent basis on very specific and detailed issues – your players will grow to hate you and that in turn leads to them hating the game. Before patch 1.2, patches that came out used to detail and explain “why” whatever was being addressed was being addressed… that stopped too, all more creating a disconnect between players and the game. BioWare, I’m not sure if you realize how many players wish they could be flies on a wall during certain meetings where you folks discuss the game changes. Let them! Share the meetings, share the discussions, post videos, let the players see and hear what is being discussed and why. A simple change that may upset thousands of players may be easily defused if the process in choosing said change was thrown up on video for players to see how the change came to light and why. I have bought one month of play time, it ran out last night, I bought another month today… my point is I’m paying month to month because I’m not sure about this game anymore. When it came out, after playing beta, I paid for 6 months and bought the collector’s edition. The choices made to PvP since Patch 1.2 have been so drastically horrible, with zero response as to how or why the choices were even made to begin with, it’s sickening. An amazing game, with amazing potential, now I'm a player with crushed hopes that is weary to even pay for another month just in hopes to see what once was at launch. EDIT: I forgot to add something... Random WZs are fine for being required to complete a daily, but for the love of all that is holy, allow your players the ability to choose the WZs they actually like... what a concept... Edited October 12, 2012 by DarkHelsing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaoskyx Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 (edited) Hear, hear! (Well, I wasn't around for pre-1.2, so I can't comment on that, but I agree with the rest. Ideally, though, I'd like every class to be capable of successfully dueling others. (Minus healer matchups, which should be stalemates.) Edited October 11, 2012 by Chaoskyx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groncho Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Hear, hear! (Well, I wasn't around for pre-1.2, so I can't comment on that, but I agree with the rest. Ideally, though, I'd like every class to be capable of successfully dueling others. (Minus healer matchups, which should be stalemates.) dueling is all what pvp is about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkHelsing Posted October 11, 2012 Author Share Posted October 11, 2012 Hear, hear! (Well, I wasn't around for pre-1.2, so I can't comment on that, but I agree with the rest. Ideally, though, I'd like every class to be capable of successfully dueling others. (Minus healer matchups, which should be stalemates.) Thank you. I would like to ask if you could clarify your last statement there. Do you mean sorc vs sorc, jug vs jug, op vs op? Because if you mean Jug vs Op... that's where the problem is. If a class is a Tank with tons of HP, and tons of Armor, but can ALSO kill a class that is just straight DPS without the armor and hp... that's an issue. That would render the DPS class worthless. That's what Patch 1.2 did, it created that issue. If you meant like Sorc vs Sorc, then yes, that would be about as equal as equal could be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monterone Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Agree with pretty much everything. I loved this game in beta and launch as well and started hating it at 1.2. I quit before 1.3 came out. I re-subbed in 1.4 but that is ONLY to play deception assassin -- I hate pretty much everything else about 1.4. Your ideas are among many that should be taken seriously by BW. Unless they all wish to look for new jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Awesome post. Excellent points and I love the title!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PakaOno Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Agree 100% with everything said! To bad this, like many other great posts will fall upon deaf ears... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mancer Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Good post, I have been here since early access. Who knows where this all will go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kcol Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Excellent post. Agreed with all points. Be sure to vote on this post before leaving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ardim Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 (edited) Great post, OP , especially on point 3. Edited October 11, 2012 by Ardim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baalzamon Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Agree with TS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunn Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 You have to understand a bit of the underpinnings of the company. PVP in this game really isn't run by Bioware per se, it's run by a group of people from Mythic. Mythic got EVERYTHING right about PvP way back when in DAOC, but really hasn't been able to replicate it since. One of their big strategies was the revolving door FOTM class. By always having one, and continually changing it, they forced players to constantly invest more time into leveling/gearing new FOTM characters, just in order to be competitive. That strategy was embraced whole-heartedly from 1.2 forward. I don't think it's going to change. It's in their DNA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praiden Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 i fully agree with your arguement. yes some hybird builds need a nerf (Ironfist to be specific) and small nerf to healers but other then that it was pretty solid in balance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missandei Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) Post is really great. But it is all fruitless.. Nothing will be changed. The Devs made so many mistakes that it is time to put swotr aside and wait at least a half a year. If after half a year swtor still lives.. maybe i will resub. My current sub is ending in couple of weeks and i see no reason to prolong it. Edited October 12, 2012 by Missandei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missandei Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 i fully agree with your arguement. yes some hybird builds need a nerf (Ironfist to be specific) and small nerf to healers but other then that it was pretty solid in balance Solid in balance but not in gear. I remember how i gear my first 50 to BM in pre 1.2. I was able to rely on my skill then. Now, gearing my fresh 50 from Recruit to BM is just boring. I enter WZ knowing that ANY WH opponent just laugh at my efforts. The gear GAP is so huge that many Recruit geared people even dont try to go for objectives in WZ. Just a fresh example - Alderaan with 4 Recruits and 4 BM against 5 WH +3 BM. We can`t do literally NOTHING. At one time 4 of our team went to defend West. 2 enemies come and easily destroyed all our effort to hold the turret. We lost something like 560-0. And this is the problem. If your team have more than 1 recruit you are in danger. 3 Recruits means you lose the WZ whatever you will do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassuro Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) I've been playing since early access, and this was perhaps the best post I've ever read on this forum. Well done DarkHelsing, well done. Edited October 12, 2012 by Rassuro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkHelsing Posted October 12, 2012 Author Share Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) Solid in balance but not in gear. I remember how i gear my first 50 to BM in pre 1.2. I was able to rely on my skill then. Now, gearing my fresh 50 from Recruit to BM is just boring. I enter WZ knowing that ANY WH opponent just laugh at my efforts. The gear GAP is so huge that many Recruit geared people even dont try to go for objectives in WZ. Just a fresh example - Alderaan with 4 Recruits and 4 BM against 5 WH +3 BM. We can`t do literally NOTHING. At one time 4 of our team went to defend West. 2 enemies come and easily destroyed all our effort to hold the turret. We lost something like 560-0. And this is the problem. If your team have more than 1 recruit you are in danger. 3 Recruits means you lose the WZ whatever you will do. The statement you quoted in this response, I'm pretty certain he was saying the same thing, meaning pre-patch 1.2 not now. I took it as he was saying that pre-patch 1.2 things were great and only a few things needed tweaking, and now the whole system is just really out of whack. I could be wrong, but I think that's what he meant. And thanks everyone, I appreciate the compliments. Edited October 12, 2012 by DarkHelsing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hexdoll Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Great post .....before 1.2, I was eager to play all WZ games, now depending on the classes that show up for the pug dictates on if I stay.....before snipers/slingers could add something in huttball other than ranged stun and a root/snare that works occasionally...next time you play a 50 look a the board and see if a op/smug class is even in the dps hell i am lucky to get 8 badges and I am geared decently...not QQ over the spec but QQing over the ridiculous amount of damage output to mitigation that is what has been broke and just gets worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strelsky Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) Well, players will always complain even though things aren't half as bad as in other games I won't name right now... But I do see your point. The whole problem is that in order to keep the common player interested, he needs to see some kind of progression in his gear and that basically means he is going to be better geared sooner or later. And thus destroy anyone with lesser gear. The only possible solution coming to my mind right now would be to take the total gear quality average of everyone in the current WZ. And those under the average would get bolstered up to the average level. That would effectively still give the WHs some of their gear advantage and make recruits a worthy teammate as well as opponent. (the numbers might need to be tweaked, but I suppose you get the general idea) Edited October 12, 2012 by Strelsky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaoskyx Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 I would like to ask if you could clarify your last statement there. Do you mean sorc vs sorc, jug vs jug, op vs op? Because if you mean Jug vs Op... that's where the problem is. If a class is a Tank with tons of HP, and tons of Armor, but can ALSO kill a class that is just straight DPS without the armor and hp... that's an issue. That would render the DPS class worthless. That's what Patch 1.2 did, it created that issue. If you meant like Sorc vs Sorc, then yes, that would be about as equal as equal could be. Sorry about that, my post was pretty confusing; I actually disagree with point #3. Not wholly - I did say healer matchups should be stalemates - but mostly. Tank jugg vs DPS op? I'd imagine the ideal situation to be one in which the tank would directly trade damage for increased survivability, meaning that the DPS would take about the same damage they dealt to the tank. In other words, a 1v1 with a tank would last a long time, but neither combatant would be at a disadvantage. Of course, perfect balance like that is nearly impossible to achieve, but as I said, it's my ideal situation That said, I'm certainly not against classes having advantages in certain situations; I'm against class counters. I just wouldn't want class counters in a game in which you cannot readily switch classes. Anyway, great post, I just don't agree with all of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrsMolle Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Despite the broken Resolve, I actually ENJOYED PVP the first week of 1.4, now that some new tweak to Resolve has happened, and more warzones are not filling up, THIS week has been disappointing so far. Is it so hard to do a 20% increase in cooldowns for stun/mez type CCs and delete Resolve code? The gear gap will never be filled without upsetting the larger player base; 1.2 rolled that ball down the cliff unfortunately. I don't think there can be anything but a better tweaking and separation of ranked type warzones and cross server pvp that could help at this point. Ninja team buffs to produce closer games or give a gear deficit team a chance of winning on cunning/ability can work, but good luck keeping that under wraps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rassuro Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Tank jugg vs DPS op? I'd imagine the ideal situation to be one in which the tank would directly trade damage for increased survivability, meaning that the DPS would take about the same damage they dealt to the tank. In other words, a 1v1 with a tank would last a long time, but neither combatant would be at a disadvantage. Of course, perfect balance like that is nearly impossible to achieve, but as I said, it's my ideal situation In a game which is focused on solo play, of course this is the ideal situation. However the reason why I believe that this wouldn't work in SWTOR at the moment, is because SWTOR is focused on team play, and some classes have more ways in which they can contribute in a team setting than others. For example, tanks have taunts and guard, two types of abilities which serve no purpose in a 1v1 but will help a lot in a team setting. On the other hand most DPS have no team-only abilities at all. If we balance a team game around solo play, the problem then comes when you move the fight to a team setting. If a DPS has a stalemate vs a healer, and another DPS goes even vs a tank, then when you put those two together, what happens is that the DPS team will essentially double their DPS , however the tank and healer will more than double their survivability because the two will play off each other in a way which the DPS team cannot. You can then make the argument that the problem is that DPS should also have abilities which are focused only on helping the team, and I'm not saying that I think a game which choses to balance their roles in this way is doing it wrong, but this is not the way which roles are currently designed to work in SWTOR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draekos Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) Way too much complaining around here, jump in or run home. Edited October 12, 2012 by Draekos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommanderKeeva Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 I love this post but I somehow doubt that they will even care to read it, much less do anything about these issues. Is it so hard to listen to player feedback once in a while? Or rather is it so hard to listen to player feedback once? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheronFett Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Way too much complaining around here, jump in or run home. Can I borrow your rose colored glasses so that I can re-read this thread through the eyes of a fanboi? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts