Yeah, this game sure is losing people...

[SirRobin]

Yeah, this game sure is losing people...

I think it would be more accurate to say that this game has already lost people. Even just at its current rate of decline it will be a failure in EA's own words before its even a year old. The game is good but just not good enough, to keep enough, wanting to play. For EA's tastes at least.

 

I started up another MMORPG Friday and the differences between these two games are staggering. Different strokes for different folks and all that but, wow. TOR ended up being another example that how much time you take, people you hire, or money you spend, just doesn't matter in the end. The game, so to speak, is the thing.

 

If your design isn't good enough then the rest doesn't matter.

Edited August 27, 2012 by SirRobin

[heechJunzi]

I think it would be more accurate to say that this game has already lost people. Even just at its current rate of decline it will be a failure in EA's own words before its even a year old. The game is good but just not good enough, to keep enough, wanting to play. For EA's tastes at least.

What's amazing to me, is the number of people who seem to care whether the game is "a failure" from EA's point of view. Are you a big investor in EA stock, or something?

 

I could care less if EA blew $250 million on a product that's actually only worth $50 million, or $10 million. EA investors and analysts will punish management over it, that's their thing. I just care whether I enjoy the game. And I absolutely do.

 

And if you found a game you enjoy, great. There are still hundreds of thousands who enjoy this game. Yes, I realize that's a million less than bought the game a year ago... but who cares? Doesn't affect me. I'll just repeat for emphasis: there are still hundreds of thousands who enjoy SWTOR. Including me.

[BobaFaceroll]

When Canderous Ordo isn't going thru stability issues we normally have 100+ on both fleets all the time, Coruscant is at least 90+ and I really can't say for sure what the other worlds are.

 

+1 in living server.

 

As someone that plays on CO I'd disagree. For the first couple weeks after the mergers there were always 2 full instances on Fleet, usually with a third during peak hours. Warzones popped instantly across most of the day, with multiple warzones running at once. Now you've usually got 1 instance on Fleet, very occasionally a second, and warzones don't pop instantly. It's not a long wait, but it's still a wait compared to a month ago. There's fewer people on leveling planets as well.

 

It seems to have stabilized, but it's definitely not as active as it was after the mergers. People have left...they just left before last weekend. The server is still alive, but it's not as busy as it was not even a few weeks ago.

[Invictos]

I think it would be more accurate to say that this game has already lost people. Even just at its current rate of decline it will be a failure in EA's own words before its even a year old. The game is good but just not good enough, to keep enough, wanting to play. For EA's tastes at least.

 

It's hard to say exactly what EA would view as a failure. You can make a decent argument that the WoW-like style of SWTOR, combined with its huge budget, suggests that EA would be dissatisfied with anything less than a world-record market share. Personally, I think EA did interfere too much in the design of the game; I think they were trying too hard to replicate WoW's success, and so they pressured Bioware to design the game conservatively. The whole thing smacks suspiciously of a board-room-derived game-design strategy.

 

So yeah, it's probably fair to say that the game predictably failed to achieve whatever the goal was at the outset. SWTOR certainly hasn't lived up to the hype, either with respect to its long-term popularity or frankly with respect to its gameplay experience. I'm prone to defend Bioware and its product, but FWIW I have no illusions that this is a great or even necessarily a good MMO. SWTOR is a solid offering with elements that I enjoy (the setting, the storyline).

 

But based on the numbers I've heard all along, the game is not a disaster, business-wise. There is virtually no chance that SWTOR will be a net loss on EA's ledger. The transition to a free-to-play business model may be regarded by long-time MMO players as a signal of doom, but it really isn't; we forget how young the MMO industry is, and how volatile are the conditions that allowed for its birth. WoW, for example, took the MMO into the mainstream, but could an identical product have done the same thing in 1999, when EQ first launched? I'm pretty sure the answer is a resounding NO.

 

Our culture wasn't ready for a mainstream MMO at that time, and our culture now may very well be -- with social media and smart phones delivering people's online-community fix, and iPads and free-to-play Apps all over the place -- at a point at which the subscription MMO just doesn't fit anymore.

 

We shouldn't be surprised to see huge shifts in the industry, is all I'm saying, and the F2P movement appears to be one of them. The only thing that surprises me is that EA/Bioware seemed to believe that recreating WoW 7 years after the fact was a fool-proof plan. Now they're changing the plan, and that's a good thing for all concerned.

[pocketthesaurus]

The Shadowlands, fleet at least; From what i see there are times when its lower (50ish) but that's usually when i log in at work. Prime time on most nights i see 200+ people, and often a second phase of it (phase the right word?) meaning one filled and the other often has another 50-150 people.

Yeah, I see around 60 around 9AM ET. At night, it's always 150-250 at least. On the weekend it's a steady 200-300 on fleet during anything after noon ET.

Edited August 27, 2012 by pocketthesaurus

[Lium]

There are 5 servers with those kind of numbers. 5. There used to be 50.

 

This is the reason why I don't like the fact that they don't show join-dates on the forums anymore. If you joined three weeks ago, yes, then you can pretend that this game isn't loosing people. If you joined 8 months ago, you know it's not true. But because Bioware doesn't want us to know when people joined, we don't know.

 

So, just out of curiosity, why does it matter if there are five servers with those kinds of numbers or 50? Even if there was only two servers with those kinds of numbers, would it make a difference as long as you were on one of those servers and you had people to play with?

 

For example, I casually play DCUO as well. They only have like two giant servers - one for PvE and one for PvP, I believe. All of the zones are crowded with people and I don't think they have as many people playing that game as SWTOR, though it should be mentioned that DCUO is F2P.

 

But that's the point. As long as there's people on to do stuff with, what does it matter how many servers there are? In WoW, with 9 million people subbed, I spend up to 45 minutes in LFG as DPS, and that's with cross server LFG. BG queues vary from battlegroup to battlegroup and faction to faction. But WZs here pop more frequently in the under 50 bracket.

 

It's all relative.

[SikrouDeco]

So, last night on the Republic fleet there were 217 people on and well over 100 on Coruscant. While questing on Taris there was close to 50. Yes, boring Taris. Fifty peeps.

 

Warzones were instant pops. No exaggerating. I'd click the little icon on my minimap, choose queue solo, and the WZ would pop the second I clicked the solo button. This is on Prophecy of the Five. And because a lot of you will say pics or didn't happen, I linked a screenshot to it. Check the number in the top left hand corner. It may not look that crowded but it was. It reminded me a lot of the old Ironforge days in classic WoW. (As a tragic consequence to my gawking, Kira and I were ran over by a speeder just as I was taking the pic.)

 

Haters will always hate, but I think the reports of SWTOR's demise were greatly exaggerated.

 

From launch, to now, they have lost over 1 million players. They initially sold 2 million units, and 1.7 sub'd and stayed. So there is a loss of 300k. Then the next release of sub numbers showed another drop of 300k to 1.4 million. Recent comments by BW said they have dipped below 1 million players. They will not commit to exact numbers but they have said more than 500k (their self procclaimed magic number to stay profitable) and less than 1 million. If I had to guess, I'd say somewhere around 700k world wide would be a safe number.

 

No need to exaggerate, the numbers are there in black and white. As for full fleet numbers, you can play to 20 for free. You only need to be level 10 or so to reach fleet. If they did not have the FTP to 20, you would see a lot less people on fleet. Many have played and levelled to fleet to hang out with friends.

Edited August 27, 2012 by SikrouDeco

[JediElf]

Does anyone play MMOs for enjoyment anymore? Does anyone play them to have fun?

 

I feel like it's now all about server populations, units sold versus population, numbers, budgets, the stock market and statistics.

 

Whatever happened to logging in, and playing the game. I bought TOR because I wanted to play it, not invest in Wall Street.

 

I can't be the only one. Can I?

Edited August 27, 2012 by JediElf

[Reble-Dog-Squad]

Does anyone play MMOs for enjoyment anymore? Does anyone play them to have fun?

 

I feel like it's now all about server populations, units sold versus population, numbers, budgets, the stock market and statistics.

 

Whatever happened to logging in, and playing the game. I bought TOR because I wanted to play it, not invest in Wall Street.

 

I can't be the only one. Can I?

 

Your not alone.

[Urael]

Does anyone play MMOs for enjoyment anymore? Does anyone play them to have fun?

 

I feel like it's now all about server populations, units sold versus population, numbers, budgets, the stock market and statistics.

 

Whatever happened to logging in, and playing the game. I bought TOR because I wanted to play it, not invest in Wall Street.

 

I can't be the only one. Can I?

 

I play for fun or I wouldn't play.

 

I enjoy a good debate on the forums though.

[DarthOvertone]

I'd rather play with a smaller number of loyal players, than fair-weather ill-tempered people who were 'waiting on that other game' and using this one to fill the time.

 

Agreed. Since the server transfers, the community is getting better. Why? Because the only people left are peeps that like the game. It's nice to know you are joining a guild and building relationships with players that plan on sticking with the game for the most part. Communities, not so much the gameplay of games themselves, are what make MMOs flourish.

 

 

regardless of how many subs SWTOR has. I am a bit shocked that GW2 didnt do a much more noticeable dent in server loads...

 

Like you, I was expecting a bigger drop in the PvP Server populations this weekend. Barely noticed a difference on The Bastion. We still had 200-300 peeps on Pub fleet, two instances, and queues were popping like wildfire. Granted, the server didn't hit Very Heavy status like it would normally, but it did hit Heavy.

 

On Jung Ma, there was a difference. Imp Fleet pop was down a bit, maybe a 1/4 of what it normally runs. Queues were a bit slower, but they were still popping with regularity.

 

What I found interesting was that peeps in Guild were coming back to PvP from GW2. They stated they enjoyed GW2, but for some reason, they still had an urge to play SWTOR. Thought that was interesting.

 

If the GW2 player base consists of a lot of SWTOR peeps, it's makeup seems to consist of those that already left the game.

 

As a side note, there seems to be a WZ queuing bug going around that you can fix by relogging. Noticed this all weekend long. Not sure why the bug occurs, but it seems to have something to do with group changes while queued up. Got stuck in a long queue a couple times, relogged, and got insta-pops upon requeuing.

 

 

And yes, people can like both FPS and RPGs, crazy right? In fact I don't know anyone that only likes a single genre.

 

I still have to mix in heavy doses of Battlefield 3. Was playing the game before SWTOR, and will keep playing it. Love the Battlefield series, and aside from the occasional hacks, that game is awesome.

[Shadezilla]

Does anyone play MMOs for enjoyment anymore? Does anyone play them to have fun?

 

I feel like it's now all about server populations, units sold versus population, numbers, budgets, the stock market and statistics.

 

Whatever happened to logging in, and playing the game. I bought TOR because I wanted to play it, not invest in Wall Street.

 

I can't be the only one. Can I?

 

This x10000

 

People spend to much time trying to validate why they do or do not want to play the game. There is nothing wrong with playing the game simply because they want too and not because it is the most, least or somewhere in the middle of the pack of successful MMO's.

[TUXs]

Does anyone play MMOs for enjoyment anymore? Does anyone play them to have fun?

 

I feel like it's now all about server populations, units sold versus population, numbers, budgets, the stock market and statistics.

 

Whatever happened to logging in, and playing the game. I bought TOR because I wanted to play it, not invest in Wall Street.

 

I can't be the only one. Can I?

 

I do as well I enjoy debate on the forums about the future of this game, that doesn't mean I don't enjoy what we have. Having been here since beta and having a healthy guild from day 1, I'm also aware of WHY people have left...and I'd like them back tbh.

[Urael]

...and I'd like them back tbh.

 

My guild from Shadow Councel in WoW went to Lord Adraas. They left before server transfers and I haven't seen any return. Most seem to be waiting. Not sure for what. Some still bounce in on WoW some play EvE but, I haven't seen any of them on Ebon Hawk. So, I have an idea where you are coming from here.

[Invictos]

Well obviously the part of the game that had the most accessibility at launch was just the sideshow, and the part of the game with the least accessibility was the main attraction.

 

Wiseassery aside the target for this game was everyone. Anyone who says otherwise is applying a liberal coat of their own bias.

 

The problem is that generally speaking, you can't satisfy everyone. WoW is an exception; it succeeded beyond anyone's wildest dreams for reasons that Blizzard probably couldn't even describe to you. EA, I believe, tried too hard to make SWTOR the McDonalds' of MMOs -- tried to out-do WoW at being WoW. The problem? They tried to do it in 2012 (or in the waning days of 2011 for all the pedants out there) instead of 2005. The entire culture, with respect to how it views tech of all stripes, but perhaps especialy gaming, has changed. There's no reason to believe that anyone, no matter how great their product, could repeat WoW's success with a subscription model in 2012.

 

SWTOR will live on. It's a decent game. I will continue to play it. All of those disclaimers out of the way, though, SWTOR could have been so much better. You can sell a lot of boxes with a strong IP and a list of focus-group-derived features, but you can't make a memorable product by letting a marketing department design your game.

[BlueCorsair]

Saying that no game could match/beat WoW just because:

 

A: It's 2012

 

and

 

B: Because it's a subscription model

 

Is a bit myopic. Where's the proof? Yes, other games have failed. Did they fail because they were subscription based? Did they fail because it's 2012? Maybe these were contributing factors, but perhaps the real truth (the one many seem to prefer to ignore) is the fact that many of the games that have failed to succeed are just bad games! ToR's story? Great. Its PvP/PvE/RP stuff? Horrible, which is why people have left. The same can be said of other recent MMO's.

 

Warcraft, hate it or love it, got it all right. Lots of content, varying levels of challenge, lots to do at end-game, fun-oriented questing, plenty of PvP, and lots of RP support. All of these things existed at its launch, or shortly thereafter. Other games have released too early, going live when they really had very little right (or sanity) to do so. SW: ToR is no different in this matter.

[putridpete]

New subscriber here.

 

I read so much negative things in the forums, yet see people playing just fine and enjoying it once in-game. I hope I can enjoy SWTOR even more than as I have so far. I'm sure the cards will be dealt at end-game, so I hope I'm not dissapointed. Either way, I'm open to re-roll.

Edited August 27, 2012 by putridpete

[Maltuvion]

So, last night on the Republic fleet there were 217 people on and well over 100 on Coruscant. While questing on Taris there was close to 50. Yes, boring Taris. Fifty peeps.

 

Warzones were instant pops. No exaggerating. I'd click the little icon on my minimap, choose queue solo, and the WZ would pop the second I clicked the solo button. This is on Prophecy of the Five. And because a lot of you will say pics or didn't happen, I linked a screenshot to it. Check the number in the top left hand corner. It may not look that crowded but it was. It reminded me a lot of the old Ironforge days in classic WoW. (As a tragic consequence to my gawking, Kira and I were ran over by a speeder just as I was taking the pic.)

 

Haters will always hate, but I think the reports of SWTOR's demise were greatly exaggerated.

 

4 Servers above Light status in the entire EU during peak - keep dreaming, darling

[SilentKitty]

New subscriber here.

 

I read so much negative things in the forums, yet see people playing just fine and enjoying it once in-game. I hope I can enjoy SWTOR even more than as I have so far. I'm sure the cards will be dealt at end-game, so I hope I'm not dissapointed. Either way, I'm open to re-roll.

 

Welcome to SWTOR, and to the forum as well. It can get a bit snippy in the forum sometimes, but don't let it get to you. Simply play the game and let your own enjoyment be the important thing. Cheers

Edited August 27, 2012 by SilentKitty

[Rafael_Peres]

So, last night on the Republic fleet there were 217 people on and well over 100 on Coruscant. While questing on Taris there was close to 50. Yes, boring Taris. Fifty peeps.

 

Warzones were instant pops. No exaggerating. I'd click the little icon on my minimap, choose queue solo, and the WZ would pop the second I clicked the solo button. This is on Prophecy of the Five. And because a lot of you will say pics or didn't happen, I linked a screenshot to it. Check the number in the top left hand corner. It may not look that crowded but it was. It reminded me a lot of the old Ironforge days in classic WoW. (As a tragic consequence to my gawking, Kira and I were ran over by a speeder just as I was taking the pic.)

 

Haters will always hate, but I think the reports of SWTOR's demise were greatly exaggerated.

Imperial Side was with 249 players on the fleet about the same time. (I play on same server than you)

Edited August 27, 2012 by Rafael_Peres

[kirorx]

New subscriber here.

 

I read so much negative things in the forums, yet see people playing just fine and enjoying it once in-game. I hope I can enjoy SWTOR even more than as I have so far. I'm sure the cards will be dealt at end-game, so I hope I'm not dissapointed. Either way, I'm open to re-roll.

 

I am glad you are enjoying SWTOR, the game is ultimatly fun.

 

Most of the hate is generated toward a few missing things or what not that could make this game incredible. Well, that a lack of solid information pertaining to things like server transfers.

 

SWTOR is weird because it is right near the edge of awesome but just dropped the ball on some important features, like dressing in your best suit but forgetting to wear shoes. If SWTOR was a mediocre game then the complaints would be less, but most people see what this game could have been and still could be but feel that their voices are not being heard.

 

SWTOR is still a fun game, but the potential for so much more is staring them in the face and yet most suggestions over the past 9 months have gone unanswered or the all too common "coming soon". Even the hate posts sometimes touch on legit things or even offer good advice, some times the worst critics can be the most inspirational .

Edited August 28, 2012 by kirorx

[Cubed_Art]

Saying that no game could match/beat WoW just because:

 

A: It's 2012

 

and

 

B: Because it's a subscription model

 

Is a bit myopic. Where's the proof? Yes, other games have failed. Did they fail because they were subscription based? Did they fail because it's 2012? Maybe these were contributing factors, but perhaps the real truth (the one many seem to prefer to ignore) is the fact that many of the games that have failed to succeed are just bad games! ToR's story? Great. Its PvP/PvE/RP stuff? Horrible, which is why people have left. The same can be said of other recent MMO's.

 

Warcraft, hate it or love it, got it all right. Lots of content, varying levels of challenge, lots to do at end-game, fun-oriented questing, plenty of PvP, and lots of RP support. All of these things existed at its launch, or shortly thereafter. Other games have released too early, going live when they really had very little right (or sanity) to do so. SW: ToR is no different in this matter.

 

WoW was a decent addition to the MMO market at the time. I did not have a flawless launch, and it didn't have any more end game than SWTOR had. It had a shorter leveling system than almost any game of its time, though it is days of game time longer than TOR. Even Blizzard didn't and still doesn't really understand what happened. They made a game to compete in 300K sub club.

 

I believe the internet, even though it was largely available since about 1996, was really coming into its own and it was no longer a subset of the population that was using it. It became mainstream, and thus, WoW, being the mainstream game of its time, inherited a whole new demographic of players. They were overwhelmed, they've admitted this, by the influx. By the end of year one they had a million sub; by the end of year two, over two million. This was unheard of.

 

Today there is a plethora of MMO choices dividing the player base, which is not going to go through a new renaissance of players, at least not in North America. Then, games, trying to copy the WoW model are also failing, because they copy the WoW model. People are just plain bored with it.

[Invictos]

WoW was a decent addition to the MMO market at the time. I did not have a flawless launch, and it didn't have any more end game than SWTOR had. It had a shorter leveling system than almost any game of its time, though it is days of game time longer than TOR. Even Blizzard didn't and still doesn't really understand what happened. They made a game to compete in 300K sub club.

 

I believe the internet, even though it was largely available since about 1996, was really coming into its own and it was no longer a subset of the population that was using it. It became mainstream, and thus, WoW, being the mainstream game of its time, inherited a whole new demographic of players. They were overwhelmed, they've admitted this, by the influx. By the end of year one they had a million sub; by the end of year two, over two million. This was unheard of.

 

Today there is a plethora of MMO choices dividing the player base, which is not going to go through a new renaissance of players, at least not in North America. Then, games, trying to copy the WoW model are also failing, because they copy the WoW model. People are just plain bored with it.

 

Well said. I don't have a problem with touting WoW as the gold standard of MMOs, but to say that WoW earned all of those subscriptions on merit alone -- and that, by extension, their success is not only repeatable but repeatable with a similar gameplay/business model -- seems crazy to me.

 

People who talk about trends (or as one poster put it, "history") in the MMO industry are missing the forest for the trees, IMO. For all intents and purposes, the industry didn't even exist 15 years ago, and it has survived through an absolutely staggering amount of social changes. What's surprising isn't that MMO gameplay and business models should shift over even relatively small periods of time (like the last seven years); what's surprising is the idea that they shouldn't.

[Vandicus]

Well said. I don't have a problem with touting WoW as the gold standard of MMOs, but to say that WoW earned all of those subscriptions on merit alone -- and that, by extension, their success is not only repeatable but repeatable with a similar gameplay/business model -- seems crazy to me.

 

 

Even Blizzard doesn't view their success as repeatable. Their Titan Project is said to be targeted at the facebook generation of gamers. Once something becomes a product standard it gains and retains a lot more customers than it would based on its own merits. WoW can't be easily killed by a new competitor in the field, although it might be losing subs to each new competitor(death by a thousand cuts as it were). What will most likely kill WoW is their writing staff(if they can even be called that) combined with mismanagement by Blizzard. There was no reason for WoW to butcher the fairly well written story and setting of Warcraft, yet they did. This has led them to their current corner where they've run out of major characters to kill and are now moving on to minor ones. If their writing staff had been competent this would never have been a problem. The blizzard management team is clearly doing something wrong because Blizzard's yearly revenue has been 3-5 times that of SWTOR's development budget(depending on which estimate one uses) for a few years now, and yet WoW has not been pioneering much in the MMO market.

 

Blizzard was once a good company that innovated and made great games. Now they're doing stuff like Diablo 3 cash AH and going for 9+ months without major patches on their (former) flagship MMO. The revenue is there, so I can only blame the people managing the company.

[Knockerz]

Even Blizzard doesn't view their success as repeatable. Their Titan Project is said to be targeted at the facebook generation of gamers. Once something becomes a product standard it gains and retains a lot more customers than it would based on its own merits. WoW can't be easily killed by a new competitor in the field, although it might be losing subs to each new competitor(death by a thousand cuts as it were). What will most likely kill WoW is their writing staff(if they can even be called that) combined with mismanagement by Blizzard. There was no reason for WoW to butcher the fairly well written story and setting of Warcraft, yet they did. This has led them to their current corner where they've run out of major characters to kill and are now moving on to minor ones. If their writing staff had been competent this would never have been a problem. The blizzard management team is clearly doing something wrong because Blizzard's yearly revenue has been 3-5 times that of SWTOR's development budget(depending on which estimate one uses) for a few years now, and yet WoW has not been pioneering much in the MMO market.

 

Blizzard was once a good company that innovated and made great games. Now they're doing stuff like Diablo 3 cash AH and going for 9+ months without major patches on their (former) flagship MMO. The revenue is there, so I can only blame the people managing the company.

 

Their revenue is going down. That's why the stock of Activison Blizzard has sunk like EA. In fact, most of Activison Blizzard revenue rest mostly on COD and wow. However, wow has lost a lot of money compared to how much money wow was making last year for the same quarter that was just reported. I doubt it people will continue to buy Blizzard's product given cataclysm and botch Diablo 3. I certainly won't be buying a newly released or pre-order any game from Blizzard until it's been proven that the game is good. The old Blizzard is gone and what we have now is the Activision version of Blizzard. it's a real shame just like BW has or will become an extension of EA.

 

That's why I don't plan on buying any games this year except maybe Rome Total War 2, but the rest are over hype and never up to standards of computing power of modern and latest computer hardware. I was so disappointed in the graphics and game play of crysis 2 that I refuse to buy any game that isn't exclusively made for pc only. Any other games are just ports from console systems.

Edited August 28, 2012 by Knockerz