KimbeFett Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 What you call grinding I call playing the game. They are random drops in the dungeons. Is it prohibitive to find all of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Briq Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 You can play DDO never give them a dime and if you spend enough time you can buy everything. I do not maintain a sub because I can earn the stuff without paying. In SWTOR I will maintain a sub because it works differently than DDO. In DDO I earn points everytime I do about anything just by playing the game. Same as LOTRO the other f2p game from turbine. In this game i cannot buy the content and retain access to it after I stop paying. DDO lets me do that. where did I mention DDO? I didn't.. I just simply stated that someone like yourself is more likely to sub that to choose f2p..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trenter Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 (edited) Is it prohibitive to find all of them? Can it be prohibitive to grind the RL cash required to purchase the item in the game store? Edited August 7, 2012 by Trenter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KimbeFett Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Can it be prohibitive to earn the RL cash required to purchase the item in the game store? That isn't exactly the point; the point is that if they make something prohibitive in game to achieve and offer you a 'cash' way out, its nearing P2W. The more prohibitive; the closer it is. I am not suggesting I would buy the tomes; actually this is the exact reason I steer clear of F2P games. I don't think grinding is fun and I refuse to pay real money for stuff. Make no mistake; they want your money, so they set up systems where you have to choose between doing something not fun and paying money; lazy people pay money, the grinders of the world grind and post about their grinding prowess and how much they enjoy doing the same thing 1000 times per week, and I sit back and wonder what happened to gaming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erudain Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 (edited) you mean like....why grind my WH set if I can pay $50 for it.....you people are like, so annoying...be rigth back gotta update my facebook /end sarcasm Edited August 7, 2012 by Erudain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trenter Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 That isn't exactly the point; the point is that if they make something prohibitive in game to achieve and offer you a 'cash' way out, its nearing P2W. The more prohibitive; the closer it is. I am not suggesting I would buy the tomes; actually this is the exact reason I steer clear of F2P games. I don't think grinding is fun and I refuse to pay real money for stuff. Make no mistake; they want your money, so they set up systems where you have to choose between doing something not fun and paying money; lazy people pay money, the grinders of the world grind and post about their grinding prowess and how much they enjoy doing the same thing 1000 times per week, and I sit back and wonder what happened to gaming. But how is it pay-to-win if the same item is obtainable inside the game, for a sub? How do you define "win", really? The people who buy it get it faster? Well, no... that's not it. They have an edge in PvP? No, not if I have the same item... No, sorry, you'll have to help me out. Even though I personally have no intention of paying for anything in the cash shop, using my rl cash, I really can't see the problem some of you seem to have with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KimbeFett Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 But how is it pay-to-win if the same item is obtainable inside the game, for a sub? How do you define "win", really? The people who buy it get it faster? Well, no... that's not it. They have an edge in PvP? No, not if I have the same item... No, sorry, you'll have to help me out. Even though I personally have no intention of paying for anything in the cash shop, using my rl cash, I really can't see the problem some of you seem to have with it. Take the example of the Adrenal. If they put those in the cash shop conceivably someone could spam use them every single CD for every single WZ they played. Normal players could not hope to ever have enough to do that; you don't make enough commendations per run. Now that player has an advantage only achievable by paying to win. Another example is those tomes; sure they can be found, but if it means hours upon hours of grinding, the average person won't. But you can pay to have a better toon than them. My point is that as the task of getting the advantage becomes less fun, or even impossible with normal/average lives, it starts to look more like P2W. I guess you could graph the "prohibitive'ness" vs the appearance of P2W. If its impossible; it is purely P2W, if its nearly impossible, you can make some argument saying, "Oh I could do it and if you were half the gamer I was you could too" But really your just splitting hairs because its practically P2W, and that is really just as bad. Because they will give the appearance of not being P2W but design systems that will try to force you to spend money. Subscription models should be about keeping us entertained and having fun; so we will pay our subscription. F2P is about designing systems that are not fun that can be circumvented around by using money. Another perfect example is the login Queue. They are making a system where the servers will be definitely full after the influx of F2P players; there will always be a Queue, and to the F2P'er you will say if ONLY I had a Subscription so that I didn't have to wait in the Queue (see the system that is designed, makes you want to pay, pay for what, cartel coins, subscription, it doesn't matter the system is there). But, this system is predicated on the fact that the servers are full, and despite the front of the line treatment the subscribers get, you will still get a queue every login. Their system wasn't designed for you to have fun, and I bet it will take away from your fun. There is the problem with F2P models and you can find it in both the Cartel Coins and the "Perks" of Subscription Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JefferyClark Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Yeah unforunately they know this and know P2W sells............ so they will sell P2W. P2W is the only way they can force people to buy cash shop items. STO tried keeping it to just cosmetics and vanity items... that lasted all of 6 months... they started having P2W items in the shop BEFORE they went F2P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rakashan Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 (edited) What you call grinding I call playing the game. They are random drops in the dungeons. So here's the issue you are missing with this. It's not to say that BEAware is going this route, just that it's happened in other games before... The fact that something drops during play does *not* mean that it is readily available. Say that a difficult world boss drops the item (e.g. the Nightmare Pilgrim). Now imagine that the Nightmare Pilgrim only spawns once per week (dunno of any examples in SWTOR, but I can think of some in other games). Then imagine that the drop rate is 1 in 10,000. Even if we ignore the difficulty of the boss and assume that he is killed within an hour every time he is up on every server that is populated you *still* don't expect more than one of the items to drop THIS YEAR (across all players on all servers). Now, let's take a more likely example... The item you want drops from Kephess in HM only. The drop rate on it is low (like Karagga's hat) so maybe 1 in 1000. But in this case, it's not cosmetic... Say it's a Campaign-level weapon. It's bind-on-pick-up so it can' t be bought from other players, but it can be purchased in the shop. Never mind other players, we're only gonna worry about how long it take you to get yours... By your logic you could still get the item in game so it's not that bad but if you just do the statistics you' could run HM EC every week with 5 different characters and you expect to see one (and only one) sometime by the end of 2013. And the reason people are naysayers about the cash shop is because although they keep saying that they won't do that kind of thing there is a history of broken promises (release dates, content, required server transfers, a whole gamut) *and* we've seen other companies and other games figure out that it's a *great* way for them to make money (see STO, who promised it would never happen and still had p2w before they actually went fully f2p). Again, I'm not saying that this is what will happen. I'm saying that I don't see it as a terrible stretch given history both with Bioware/EA and other games who have tried to make the same transition. Edited August 7, 2012 by Rakashan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monoth Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 (edited) No it will exist, thats what 'Cartel Coins' are for. However as to what is in the shop, they've only vaguely stated. Cosmetics and 'Helper' Buffs etc. Whats stupid about peoples notion is that they believe that there'll be some sort of 'pay to win' item on there. Imagine what would happen if you could use "Heroic Moment" abilities in pvp/ops. It'd create an imbalance. Pay to win weapons translate to the defintion of Imbalance, and i'd say it'd be steered clear from. The cosmetic side of things is a huge area to explore. Within months you could see guilds running around in storm trooper/clone trooper armor, species that weren't in the game before etc. Frankly I'm okay with all of these things. I guess people are always terrified of change. Here is a blog from one of the Dev's explaining free to play and what subscribers will get.... I quoted the passages I'm most concerend with.... Source: http://www.swtor.com/info/news/blog/20120731 With Cartel Coins you can purchase convenience items, boosts, visually unique gear, collectibles, and more Not sure what boosts entail but I would guess it's to your stats which by definition is pay to win.... you can continue as a subscriber, which gives you unlimited access to all game features and future Game Updates at no additional charge If this was true then why are subscribers being given cartel coins each month? Obviously the cash shop will have items you can't get in game, so much for the statement "Access to all game features" since the ones on the cash shop will have to be bought with cartel coins and unless they give us a ton of coins each month we will have to spend extra cash in order to get all the "Game Features".. Edited August 7, 2012 by Monoth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leggomy Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 where did I mention DDO? I didn't.. I just simply stated that someone like yourself is more likely to sub that to choose f2p..... If you had actually read it you would know I was saying why I would pay a sub here but I do not pay a sub in another f2p game. I guess you just saw DDO mentioned and stopped reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leggomy Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 So here's the issue you are missing with this. It's not to say that BEAware is going this route, just that it's happened in other games before... The fact that something drops during play does *not* mean that it is readily available. Say that a difficult world boss drops the item (e.g. the Nightmare Pilgrim). Now imagine that the Nightmare Pilgrim only spawns once per week (dunno of any examples in SWTOR, but I can think of some in other games). Then imagine that the drop rate is 1 in 10,000. In DDO they are not that rare. In LOTRO and DDO the hardest things to get are not sold in the store. The items you need to make 1st and 2nd age legendary items for example. Tomes you can buy for gold in the game or trade with your friends. Why would you want it handed to you anyways? The whole point of these games is to play the game. If you just buy everything then whats the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretty_Flacko Posted August 7, 2012 Share Posted August 7, 2012 Look! More hidden footpri....oops wrong game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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