Bioware, Class balance and Powertechs

[TheGreatFrosty]

In the past Bioware have commented on Sentinels and their position within the game, even at one point saying that their damage output was equal to that of a DPS guardian (at least by their metrics).

 

I would love to hear what they have to say about Powertechs.

 

 

Powertechs are currently a huge issue in SWTOR PVP class balance. Everyday more and more people roll the class, it requires 0 skill and is capable of doing incredibly high damage. It has very respectable defences, with heavy armour and the ability to reduce the cooldown of their shield. They aren't 'melee', as some would claim, as moves such as railshot can be used at 30m.

 

My server now sees premades with at least two powertechs regularly. I know this is only one example, and I can't exactly apply it to confirm that it's a gamewide problem, but there is certainly some correlation between the realisation of a certain overpowered spec (with certain itemization) and the rapid growth in the class' numbers (all of which appear to use said spec).

 

Perhaps fighting groups of them elevates the issue, but I know for a fact that most of these powertechs are individually poor players. They've had previous alts in the past, performed terribly, then rolled a powertech and suddenly, as if by some mystical force, started to top the DPS charts.

 

I go by the philosophy that there isn't a "good" or a "bad" powertech. There is just a powertech. With 0 skill curve, each and every powertech is an issue which raises serious questions about class balance.

 

I know I am not alone with these feelings, and for those who honestly believe that the class isn't in some way disproportionate to other DPSers, I can only say that you must be playing a different game. Gunslingers are the only class who can match their burst (at least post 1.3), but Gunslingers can be countered happily through some simple LOSing. Powertechs have a gap closer, a slow that is attached to their frequently used move, the capability of performing well at ranged as well as melee and above all else, 100% mobility.

 

Bottom line : I am honestly concerned that Bioware will make the same mistake with powertechs as they did with Shadow tanks. When 1.2 first hit I was one of the first people to raise concerns that there were no shadow tank nerfs, to which many shadow/assassins dismissed my claims as an "l2p" issue. Let this not be the last bastion that each OP spec supporter falls behind, these classes need to be dealt with sooner rather than later.

 

Will it take till 1.4 to deal with powertechs? What are Bioware's thoughts concerning the class? Are they performing to their supposed "targets", or over performing? Or is it, as I suspect, an issue that stems from their inability to balance PVE and PVP.

 

 

A few quick counter thoughts to those who would defend the class :

 

- Saying "Just put your entire team on them and then they die, GG all done", isn't evidence of class balance. It is the opposite of that.

 

-"They go down easily, just target them" All DPSers go down easily if t hey are targeted... it's meant to be that way. The difference is in that if you get two people to target a powertech, he has respectable mitigations with heavy armour and a -25% reduction shield. Now get two people to target a sage, see the difference in TTK. Simply put, they don't go down easily enough, if this is meant to somehow be the class' compromise for their over the top DPS.

 

-"You can't nerf PVP without destroying PVE". If this is true, it is simply not my problem but Bioware's. Their job is to settle the balance within this game and not have issues with PVE affect PVP in such a drastic way. Bioware would have to find some way to deal with the class' burst, whilst aiding their sustained damage in PVE.

 

EDIT : Apparently another clarification is needed: The adrenal nerf affects EVERYONE. DPS, heal and tanks. It certainly cannot be counted as a "nerf" to PTs only.

Edited June 20, 2012 by TheGreatFrosty

[Aliababw]

Sorry dude, I just don't have the energy or will to post on another Nerf Pyrotech's thread; every single one of them just goes around in circles with the same arguments flying back and forth and the devs haven't even given us a hint that they have read a single one of them and are planning on doing something about it. Edited June 20, 2012 by Aliababw

[newwb]

railshot

[UGLYMRJ]

Sorry dude, I just don't have the energy or will to post on another Nerf Pyrotech's thread; every single one of them just goes around in circles with the same arguments flying back and forth and the devs haven't even given us a hint that they have read a single one of them and are planning on doing something about it.

 

THIS!!! The horse is dead... stop kicking it.

 

No amount of forum "discussion" will change the class, the decision is up to BW and the numbers they record and review.

 

Proof: The thousands of marauder threads and guess what... they actually buffed the carnage marauders in 1.3

 

L2P

Edited June 20, 2012 by UGLYMRJ

[Superawesomerman]

Rail shot to 10 meters.

[TheGreatFrosty]

THIS!!! The horse is dead... stop kicking it.

 

No amount of forum "discussion" will change the class, the decision is up to BW and the numbers they record and review.

 

Proof: The thousands of marauder threads and guess what... they actually buffed the carnage marauders in 1.3

 

L2P

 

My point was that they once commented on sentinel / marauder, clearly they thought the class was in a balanced position. My curiosity is to their thoughts on Powertech.

 

Just because an issue has been exercised numerous times, does not make it less prevalent.

Edited June 20, 2012 by TheGreatFrosty

[Briggs_Knightly]

Everyone (except some silly PTs) knows that PTs need damage reduction.

AND... This HAS to happen BEFORE ranked WZs start live.

 

The concern is that Bioware seems incapable of reacting on this.

 

Don't worry about the PT trolls who will try and blast this thread into oblivion.

They are just trying to keep their place at the top of the pile as long as possible (regardless of sensibilities).

[Briggs_Knightly]

railshot

 

Can't reduce Rail Shot. It will kill Mercs. Mercs are already weak enough.

Maybe eliminate RS from PTs and give them Power Shot with some Flame Burst modifications.

[UGLYMRJ]

My point was that they once commented on sentinel / marauder, clearly they thought the class was in a balanced position. My curiosity is to their thoughts on Powertech.

 

Just because an issue has been exercised numerous times, does not make it less prevalent.

 

I get it... but the result will be the same. By the next page of this thread half of the people will be defending and the other half will be screaming for nerfs.

 

So again... I completely understand what you are trying to say but the thread still remains pointless and is just another cookie cutter nerf thread in the eyes of most on these forums. It is near impossible to have a constructive discussion regarding PT's and Marauders.

 

Don't feed the beast!!!

[UGLYMRJ]

Everyone (except some silly PTs) knows that PTs need damage reduction.

AND... This HAS to happen BEFORE ranked WZs start live.

 

The concern is that Bioware seems incapable of reacting on this.

 

Don't worry about the PT trolls who will try and blast this thread into oblivion.

They are just trying to keep their place at the top of the pile as long as possible (regardless of sensibilities).

 

I'm curious... have you played a PT and another class to 50?

[Frunzenshnapp]

To be honest, BW, acknowledging the problem, would've been partly a solution. People would've at least stopped rolling more PT's.

[Theology]

You kids QQ'ing do realize that 1.3 is going to murder Powertech burst, and that healers will be 100% unkillable, right?

[mangarrage]

while the premise Pyrotech do way too much damage is certainly correct. The reality of the class itself is that it requires alot more abilities or dare I say skill, then a sorc/sage, merc/comm, op/scon, and most certainly more then sent/maurader

 

Everyone thinks railshot railshot railshot which is just silly tbh but you need to set up railshot, a knowledgable player gets alot more railshots then others. Sure any idiot can be a high damage PT, but it requires a little more then a faceroll keyboard or 3 button wonders that other classes are

[lordkhouri]

while the premise Pyrotech do way too much damage is certainly correct. The reality of the class itself is that it requires alot more abilities or dare I say skill, then a sorc/sage, merc/comm, op/scon, and most certainly more then sent/maurader

 

Everyone thinks railshot railshot railshot which is just silly tbh but you need to set up railshot, a knowledgable player gets alot more railshots then others. Sure any idiot can be a high damage PT, but it requires a little more then a faceroll keyboard or 3 button wonders that other classes are

 

flame burst> flame burst >flame burst> flame burst > railshot .... phew that was hard

[oldshatterhand]

Problem is PT use the same tree as us mercs. If they would nerf it, we would be destroyed since we are already the weakest DPS class and pyro is our only option for PvP.

 

Imo the problem with PT could be solved easily without touching the mercs: just lower their chance to trigger CGC (which is now 100%, compared to 16% that mercs have) and reduce Puncture (currently giving them 60% RS armor penetration + 30% from pyro tree = 90% to 15% per talent point, so they can have max 45% + 30% = 75% penetration).

Edited June 20, 2012 by oldshatterhand

[Superawesomerman]

while the premise Pyrotech do way too much damage is certainly correct. The reality of the class itself is that it requires alot more abilities or dare I say skill, then a sorc/sage, merc/comm, op/scon, and most certainly more then sent/maurader

 

Everyone thinks railshot railshot railshot which is just silly tbh but you need to set up railshot, a knowledgable player gets alot more railshots then others. Sure any idiot can be a high damage PT, but it requires a little more then a faceroll keyboard or 3 button wonders that other classes are

 

Er, it's pretty universally noted that Pts have an exceptionally easy rotation.

[TheGreatFrosty]

You kids QQ'ing do realize that 1.3 is going to murder Powertech burst, and that healers will be 100% unkillable, right?

 

Edited the original post for you.

[AppleRedX]

TheGreatFrosty, missing player skill and mimimi ...

[Uchoo]

Problem is PT use the same tree as us mercs. If they would nerf it, we would be destroyed since we are already the weakest DPS class and pyro is our only option for PvP.

 

Imo the problem with PT could be solved easily without touching the mercs: just lower their chance to trigger CGC (which is now 100%, compared to 16% that mercs have) and reduce Puncture (currently giving them 60% RS armor penetration + 30% from pyro tree = 90% to 15% per talent point, so they can have max 45% + 30% = 75% penetration).

 

Pretty much. The problem isn't the PT tree. It's the extra rail shot damage and 60% armor pen for a total of like 5 points in the first tier of other trees. Mercs are going to have 60% Rail Shot next patch (justifiable because of 35% AP on HVC) but they can't use HVC and CGC at the same time, which kind of ruins any hopes of PT working properly.

 

I mean Marauders have Annihilate, but it takes almost half of the resource bar to use... Marauders can't do that kind of damage, and they're stuck at a 4m range.

 

PT's aren't grossly overpowered, but they're still up there.

[gofortheko]

I dont know what to do, if you take away VG/PT burst, they will be free kills, but I dont see how its an issue. Most good maras still beat my PT (I run in plasma almost all the time) if they remember to snare me, if not I will kite them. Also putting HIB on 10m wont really change my dps much at all since I always close to to damage anyway, since my nastiest ability is Ion Pulse which is 10m.

 

If you take away their burst, give them more defensive cooldowns, and I am tired of the "heavy armor" nonsense, as heavy armor is not as effective at all in pvp as it is in pve. I run around 30% damage reduction in Plasma cell and my Sentinel runs at 25% percent in inferior armor (VG has 4 pieces of WH, Sent is in all BM). That means when my sent is hit with 100 damage, he will reduce it to "only" 75 damage, while my VG will take 5 damage less at 70. 5 points of damage is NOT a significant reason to base class balance around.

 

If my VG had the MULTITUDE of defensive cooldowns a sent has maybe, but we get 1 long timer defensive cooldown that can be reduced by talents (though anyone who knows the VG/PT offensive tree wont take those talents because the best dps spec is VERY tight) somewhat but not enough to have it up every fight.

 

Also dont give me the stun arguments as anything significant, because a vast majority of the time when I need to use them my target is already full resolve and resistant to them cause newbs wanna blow their stuns in the first seconds of the fight.

[TheGreatFrosty]

I dont know what to do, if you take away VG/PT burst, they will be free kills, but I dont see how its an issue. Most good maras still beat my PT (I run in plasma almost all the time) if they remember to snare me, if not I will kite them. Also putting HIB on 10m wont really change my dps much at all since I always close to to damage anyway, since my nastiest ability is Ion Pulse which is 10m.

 

If you take away their burst, give them more defensive cooldowns, and I am tired of the "heavy armor" nonsense, as heavy armor is not as effective at all in pvp as it is in pve. I run around 30% damage reduction in Plasma cell and my Sentinel runs at 25% percent in inferior armor (VG has 4 pieces of WH, Sent is in all BM). That means when my sent is hit with 100 damage, he will reduce it to "only" 75 damage, while my VG will take 5 damage less at 70. 5 points of damage is NOT a significant reason to base class balance around.

 

If my VG had the MULTITUDE of defensive cooldowns a sent has maybe, but we get 1 long timer defensive cooldown that can be reduced by talents (though anyone who knows the VG/PT offensive tree wont take those talents because the best dps spec is VERY tight) somewhat but not enough to have it up every fight.

 

Also dont give me the stun arguments as anything significant, because a vast majority of the time when I need to use them my target is already full resolve and resistant to them cause newbs wanna blow their stuns in the first seconds of the fight.

 

I'm not saying anything about taking away the burst, but simply softening its power to bring it on level with A ) other DPS classes and B ) the skill necessary to deliver it consistently.

 

For me, this would involve lowering the amount of armour penetration. It would not destroy the burst at all but simply lower it to an acceptable level.

[MrHotter]

Railshot changed to 10M and then have mercs/commandos get a 30M range at 10. It's similar to the way some skills work for consular/inquisitors and smuggler/IA.

 

The Pyrotech is still most effective at close range. Rocket Punch is needed in the rotation to do the most damage.

[TheGreatFrosty]

Railshot changed to 10M and then have mercs/commandos get a 30M range at 10. It's similar to the way some skills work for consular/inquisitors and smuggler/IA.

 

The Pyrotech is still most effective at close range. Rocket Punch is needed in the rotation to do the most damage.

 

At least this would supply a way to counter the class, in a similar way that a range can counter a sentinel.

[Hethroin]

Pyrotech PTs deal burst damage by dumping their resources with DPS cooldowns (relic, adrenals, and explosive fuel) active. The adrenal nerf will have a larger effect on this burst damage then on tanks, healers, and sustained DPSers (like annihilation marauders)

 

1.2 had a nerf to the pyro tree. Specifically the rail shot reset was given an internal cooldown so as to have it occur no more than once every 6 seconds. In 1.1 it was possible to have rail shot be over 30% of all your damage attacks, this is much lower now, and heat management for the pyro took a substantial hit.

 

The pyro is a glass cannon class with no escape mechanic. If it dealt less damage there would be no reason to bring it over a marauder that needs to be killed 3 times before it dies or a sniper that can achieve the same damage numbers from 35m away.

 

I'm getting a strange sense of Deja Vu with these threads that want to focus on the first 15 seconds out of every 3 minutes.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Hethroin

[PakaOno]

flame burst> flame burst >flame burst> flame burst > railshot .... phew that was hard

 

4 FB/IPs in a row? Talk about crippling yourself heat/ammo wise right out of the gate...