1.3 Juggernaut Changes

[Dracosz]

The Relic/Adrenal change is massive for Rage Juggernauts though. We're a controlled burst class, we know exactly when our damage is going to spike. Adrenals and Relics helped us push that burst even higher making us a serious threat. Rage Juggernauts have very little sustained damage, it's basically a guided missile spec..

 

This is why Rage needs fundamental talent restructuring and a focus (pun not intended) on other aspects of the class's strengths (mobility and protection). Rage efficiency is another thing that needs to get looked at, because as it stands, I don't see the tree getting a whole lot out of the changes (although 6% more damage on force attacks is a nice change over 6% singe-target damage).

[Traestus]

This is why Rage needs fundamental talent restructuring and a focus (pun not intended) on other aspects of the class's strengths (mobility and protection). Rage efficiency is another thing that needs to get looked at, because as it stands, I don't see the tree getting a whole lot out of the changes (although 6% more damage on force attacks is a nice change over 6% singe-target damage).

 

Yeah...but considering the pace BioWare works at we're not seeing a fundamental talent restructuring until at least 1.4 and god knows when that is.

 

Like the giant issue with the adrenal/relic change is it's hitting Concealment Ops/Rage Juggs and whatever their Repub mirrors are the hardest, and I don't think anyone considered them OP.

 

I mean 6% is nice, but there's NO way it's going to offset the loss in burst control. It's like BioWare went.

 

"Well we're going to lop off your arm, but here's a nice walking stick to help you get around." Yeah the walking stick is nice, but we're still missing an arm.

[Teioh_White]

While our single target dps is being lowered by a bit, at least one other tank, PT's, is as well. PT's are losing 18% damage on rocket punch, and not only is that their heaviest hitter, they fire it off almost as often as we do Sunders.

 

Depending on how well the Sonic Barrier scaling is, it could go from near worthless to actually something noticible. That's our only real change to defense, and I still wish they'd make barrier damage absorb use our armor rating, which that alone would double it's use.

 

Sweeping slash and smash changes are nice for running through flash points, but won't have much of any change on Ops. Losing higher damage on crushing blow is sadness, though I guess now we can charge, sunder, smash, crush a target to fire off an AoE version, then sweeping slash/sunder to keep it on us. Should make the weekly BT/LI/Kaon run I do with the guild a little easier.

 

Sin's don't seem to be having their damage nerfed any, unlike the other two tanks, but are taking a hit to mitigation. Still not sure it's enough of a hit to dethrone them from best defenses where they are now, which is saying something about the current state of tank balance.

[corakil]

Holy Damage Nerf Batman.

 

Immortal just got its dps nerfed into the ground.

[Khalhazar]

Immortal just got its dps nerfed into the ground.

All I'm seeing is the loss of +6% melee damage. Is 6% nerfed into the ground? I'm hoping not!

[Traestus]

All I'm seeing is the loss of +6% melee damage. Is 6% nerfed into the ground? I'm hoping not!

 

Well stack that on top of the Backhand Damage nerf and the Crushing Blow nerf which maths out too

 

 

This was taken from the PTR forums, from a Guardian so the abilities renamed for them

So, decided to compare my Guardian Slash damage on the PTS and Live. I'm in mostly Tionese with a few Columi pieces.

 

Live Damage: 1450 to 1672 if less than 5 stacks, 1814 to 2091 damage at 5 stacks. Average damage 1561/1952. 390/488 damage per focus.

PTS Damage: 1084 to 1253, no bonus damage, 1168 avg, 292 damage per focus.

 

Normal "learned at level 1" Slash: 1011 to 1164 damage. 1087 avg, 362 dmg per focus.

 

Guardian Slash now does 75% of its original starting damage, and 60% of its full stack damage. This is not a "slight" damage reduction. It's now better to spam Slash in a single target situation as GS only deals 7% more damage for 25% more focus.

 

The altered force sweep and cyclone slash talents were more than sufficient to fix AoE threat. There was no reason to ruin our main heavy hitter.

 

I'd say Immortal Damage is pretty nerfed.

[Aikagi]

Yeah, tank damage seems like it's been nerfed quite badly. Which is sad, because it couldn't really do that much damage to begin with. Even in PVP with full DPS gear, you weren't going to get near a skilled DPS class in terms of damage.

 

The adrenal/relic nerf is disappointing for Rage too. I presume they'll change the relics into a passive power increase proc or something, but that's absolutely useless for a burst class. In most cases it'll proc while our smash is on cooldown. The 6% force damage is a nice change, but who knows whether it'll make up for the relic/adrenal change. :/

[ArsenalJaycen]

I posted this in the PTS forums.

 

I have tested 3 different builds on the PTS. And found the following :

 

31 Immortal

 

PVE : Fantastic AOE aggro and nice passive defences can't tell in flashpoints if lowered DPS has any damaging effect.

 

PVP : Tank Geared : Fells stronger on the survivability but really lacks on the DPS side.

DPS Geared : A little more survivability than 1.2 but noticed the DPS loss quite a bit.

 

31 Vengeance

 

PVE : Was about the same as 1.2 but did notice lowered damage on force attacks due to Shien Form only getting 6% damage buff to the melee

 

PVP : DPS Geared : Noticed quite alot of force damage loss on some of the bug hitters like Force Scream. Also our buff in Shien form is "white damage" is easily blocked by shields so noticed a loss of damage there.

 

18/23 Hybrid

 

PVE : Was fine but noticed a DPS loss due to force attacks not being buffed

PVP : DPS Geared : Was quite bad due to damage loss and missing key abilities like a crit Force Scream and Viscous Throw. "White Damage" bonus from Shien was eaten up by shield wearing players.

 

Would like to add that I am in full Rakata and a few Black Hole bits for PVE and for PVP are in full Battle master plus two bits of War Hero. I also used the Biochem Might Stim for extra DPS and still thought there was huge gap in DPS.

 

Conclusion

 

I think the agro improvements are good but the loss of 6% DPS is huge and can be noticed right away. This is quite a concern especially for operations on hitting enrage timers. With the jugg having the worst DPS out of the all the tanks and then to have that nerfed will make some question the actual use of the jugg as the main tank.

 

I would go back to 1.2 and add the AOE agro and then I think juggs would be on the right track.

[Wrothag]

not really happy with the SSM changes. as a pvp veng jugg im in soresu most of the time, losing 6% dmg on my key abilities sounds bad...

[Dracosz]

not really happy with the SSM changes. as a pvp veng jugg im in soresu most of the time, losing 6% dmg on my key abilities sounds bad...

 

You should never be in soresu "most of the time" it's something you should swap to if you're being focused heavily or your team needs a guard out in a pinch. Otherwise, it's best to stay in shien for the extra damage.

[ArsenalJaycen]

You should never be in soresu "most of the time" it's something you should swap to if you're being focused heavily or your team needs a guard out in a pinch. Otherwise, it's best to stay in shien for the extra damage.

 

But even Shien has been nerfed

[Khalhazar]

Traestus: You're right; I was thinking in terms of my beloved 18/23 pvp build; I had forgotten about those nerfs as well. Kind of hard to understand what the goal is re: tank damage.

[Dracosz]

But even Shien has been nerfed

 

It's a 6% nerf to force attacks which hurts, but quite honestly that's about it. We still have the full gamut of our toolset to work with.

 

Maybe more people will finally start picking up accuracy in PvP (I'm at 99% atm) >_>

Edited June 7, 2012 by Dracosz

[Wrothag]

You should never be in soresu "most of the time" it's something you should swap to if you're being focused heavily or your team needs a guard out in a pinch. Otherwise, it's best to stay in shien for the extra damage.

 

no way? currently absolutely no point playing in shien, awful survivability, more than enough rage in soresu and only a minimal dmg increase. +50% dmg reduction from armor or +6% increased dmg, id say soresu any time. its also the key to beat multiple targets. sure i wont have problems switching between forms as i did pre-1.2 but i still not welcome this change...

[Dracosz]

no way? currently absolutely no point playing in shien, awful survivability, more than enough rage in soresu and only a minimal dmg increase. +50% dmg reduction from armor or +6% increased dmg, id say soresu any time. its also the key to beat multiple targets. sure i wont have problems switching between forms as i did pre-1.2 but i still not welcome this change...

 

Did you play in defensive stance all the time as a warrior in WoW because you took less damage? (If you didn't play WoW, well w/e then).

 

"Key to beat multiple targets"

 

What does that even MEAN? Are you suggesting that it enables us to 1v3 or 1v4? Because if you're attempting that, then you're not playing as a team player and are either stalling or wasting your team's time.

 

If you're playing in soresu all the time then you have garbage rage generation and horrible followthrough damage when going through a burst sequence. You're losing out on 6% overall damage which is REALLY bad. You can set up a burst, but it's simply not efficient.

 

Anyway, I take back what I said about the patch. There's been no change whatsoever for Shien that hurts us, we'll still have the 6% overall damage in shien on top of what we already have (Shien's gain from SSM is still the same as before). This change just makes it so that when we go into soresu (when playing defensively) less strong in that we won't be able to execute our full burst sequences as efficiently as we are able to now.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Dracosz

[Cthrax]

I find the changes to be satisfactory. We clear HM EC weekly (8 or 16m depending on who logs), and I for one am very excited to see the new AOE machanics work out when this goes live. As for the DPS nerf, well to be honest if your dps loss with the nerf to Crushing Blow and SSM and Backhand will prevent you from downing a boss because of the enrage, then really your DPS just needs to work a little (Lot?) harder. The tank shouldn't really be focused on dealing a ton of damage (I only average around 350-400, sometimes 500 dps on bosses). If these DPS "nerfs" drop those numbers to only 200-300 dps, it still wouldn't really matter when you look at the overall picture when you factor in keeping threat, and knowing the fights inside and out, and assuming your DPSers are all doing there jobs well. Ultimately by improving our threat generation, AOE especially, and overall mitigation (scream being buffed and a passive +3 defense rating, which is actually a pretty nice buff as well), it will allow your healers less time to focus on healing themselves and other DPS because the mobs will be focused on you, and will allow your DPS to focus more on standing there and maximizing there rotations for optimal DPS instead of worrying about defensive abilities. I've seen some people say retaliation being nerfed is bad, but you gotta figure, that other 3% is PASSIVE, and is pretty nice considering some people don't sport 25+ base defense rating and rely on retal to maximize there defense rating. They even buffed it to 12 seconds, giving you even MORE time to get a proc and keep it up. Overall very good changes IMO. A 50 percent boost to threat..might have been a bit excessive, but I'm not gonna complain.

[Wrothag]

Did you play in defensive stance all the time as a warrior in WoW because you took less damage? (If you didn't play WoW, well w/e then).

 

"Key to beat multiple targets"

 

What does that even MEAN? Are you suggesting that it enables us to 1v3 or 1v4? Because if you're attempting that, then you're not playing as a team player and are either stalling or wasting your team's time.

 

If you're playing in soresu all the time then you have garbage rage generation and horrible followthrough damage when going through a burst sequence. You're losing out on 6% overall damage which is REALLY bad. You can set up a burst, but it's simply not efficient.

 

Anyway, I take back what I said about the patch. There's been no change whatsoever for Shien that hurts us, we'll still have the 6% overall damage in shien on top of what we already have (Shien's gain from SSM is still the same as before). This change just makes it so that when we go into soresu (when playing defensively) less strong in that we won't be able to execute our full burst sequences as efficiently as we are able to now.

 

wow's warrior stances was a whole different story. yes, i played one, over 250k honorkills, vanilla rank14, high ranked in arena and later hero of the horde (even tho stance-dancing was gone by that time).

 

about the multiple targets, sure we cant win 1v3s or 1v4s (1v2 usually not a problem, im in full augmented wh gear with over 1300 exp), but with smart use of our defensive cds i can survive long enough till help arrives. when i can keep 2-4 of the enemy team busy all on my own, i think the rest of my team is happy that im not a glasscannon .

 

as i mentioned rage generation isnt a problem, my build is 4/35/2 with a lot of extra rage skills, free smash, force scream etc.

not saying we dont have burst dmg cuz we really do but i leave that role to the rage guys. when i really need insane burst i pop relic+adrenal (well, till 1.3 i guess ) otherwise i just keep doing my high sustained dps. my motto is "a dead warrior does 0 dmg" so i rather be an unkillable beast with slightly lower offensive power than a guy maxing out dmg but being too dependant on heals (i feel way too squishy in shien..)

 

guess it will change a lot in 1.3 with the loss of on use relics, adrenal dmg boosts and the change to ssm increasing the gap between shien and soresu. anyway i still think its more a nerf than a quality of life change.

[Theninjafuzz]

Well it's nice to see that most of the Juggernauts are happy with their changes. See as how Assassin's got absolutely demolished with the nerf bat. Then the hammer. Then with the bat again for good measure. (One for Dark charge healing, one for dark charge armor, and one for lightning healing. Go BioWare!)

[beliglath]

Well it's nice to see that most of the Juggernauts are happy with their changes. See as how Assassin's got absolutely demolished with the nerf bat. Then the hammer. Then with the bat again for good measure. (One for Dark charge healing, one for dark charge armor, and one for lightning healing. Go BioWare!)

 

you read the same forums as i do? not a single tank is happy with the underserved damage nerf

[Nemmar]

I just saw the changes and i dont see the point of changing single saber mastery.

 

none of the specs is OP, so stop messing around with it. Its working and its fine. Stop trying to break it Bioware.

 

And honestly, if nerfs both vengence and rage spec dps. I am not gonna tolerate nerfs to juggernaut when you do nothing to marauders.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Nemmar

[Dracosz]

I just saw the changes and i dont see the point of changing single saber mastery.

 

none of the specs is OP, so stop messing around with it. Its working and its fine. Stop trying to break it Bioware.

 

And honestly, if nerfs both vengence and rage spec dps. I am not gonna tolerate nerfs to juggernaut when you do nothing to marauders.

 

It's a buff to rage and no change at all for vengeance. The adrenal/relic changes, however, kill rage.

[Nemmar]

It's a buff to rage and no change at all for vengeance. The adrenal/relic changes, however, kill rage.

 

You're not reading it right.

 

Read the change to single saber mastery. Its getting changed from 6% more damage across the board to 6% damage ONLY on melee/physical damage (shien form) or ONLY on force damage (shi-cho form). That means 6% lesss force damage on shien and 6% less physical damage on schi-cho, that IS A NERF.

 

Seriously, im struggling to keep up with marauders as it is. If you see dps ranking its marauders all on top. I dont understand why juggernauts need an underhanded nerf like this to their DPS when we're performing as we should (aka behind the pure DPS classes)... and when everyone knows marauders are the ones that are OP.

 

Revert it, seriously.

 

EDIt: Nevermind i just noticed it says melee damage on live servers aswell. Well, if its the same for vengence then im ok with it, but i still dont understand why nerf Rage spec. Its already pretty bad as it is, why make it worse?

Edited June 7, 2012 by Nemmar

[froops]

I personally do not really like the changes at all.

 

The increase in threat generation was not necessary and the reduction in damage in Soresu form definitely wasn't necessary. Actually all of the changes weren't really necessary.

 

Even as a 4/33/4 Vengeance spec Jugg I have tanked most HM FPs and I don't really have a huge issue with threat generation or damage mitigation. I do admit that when the DPS is good I do lose aggro but that's all part of the challenge. You need to be on the ball to make sure you throw that taunt at the right time in order to grab aggro back.

 

In regards to AoE threat generation, whilst I guess it would help with that, again I didn't see a huge issue. If I got in there first, pulled them together, smashed and then spammed sweeping slash I didn't have any issues with threat. If they lost aggro, aoe taunt and by the time that wears off everything is dead. If I lost a target off to the side I'd throw off a normal taunt and bring him back in.

 

In the packs with multiple elites or ranged mobs where you can't aoe burn them down like that, if you use a proper kill order (i.e. target, then fire, then shield etc) I never had an issue with holding aggro on the additional mobs as well as long as the DPS weren't attacking the wrong target. Even if they were, I still had my taunts at my disposal. If my taunts are both on CD, then I have intercede, force charge, force choke, intimidating roar, chilling scream etc. All abilities that you can do to manage damage being dealt to other party members until your taunts are back up.

 

 

Overall, what these changes, what they've done is make what was already possible and fun, when applying skill in playing the class, easy and boring whilst at the same time nerfing damage further whilst in Soresu.

 

Even if they are hell bent on increasing threat generation, fine, but leave everything else as it is. There's no need to further nerf the damage in SSM, backhand and crushing blow. I tank in a full DPS spec and have had healers tell me I wasn't too bad to heal as well as DPS tell me that my threat was fine. What is the point of spec'ing Immortal if all it does is increase threat I don't need and reduce DPS that I do need? And yes I do realise that it improves damage mitigation and rage generation, however the changes to SSM mean that the gap in mitigation between going immortal, immortal/vengeance hybrid and being straight out vengeance has narrowed.

 

I feel for the juggs who wish to stay in Immortal and I for one will never respec back to Immortal in it's current or proposed 1.3 state.

[BanetheDarkLord]

So it seems that with the changes we see as of now, the Juggs that plan on tanking may as well go back into Immortal (I never left anyway) because the lack luster DPS you would be trying to attain through hybrids wouldn't be worth it. Just sticking with the extra survivability might be the way to go.

 

Although 1v1 we might have lost some DPS, I see some major ways to still affect the battlefield in the heaviest fights in PvP. With the new Crushing Fist replacing Unleashed, which causes Smash to apply 2 stacks of armor reduction per point to all affected targets, and with Crushing Blow's tweak it can do even to more armor reduction stacking within a large group of enemies. We may have lost DPS, but we have gained some added AOE armor debuffs and with the higher survivability, we can do so for longer.

Edited June 8, 2012 by BanetheDarkLord

[Fallerup]

Nemmar... Don't bother... Bioware is not gonna hear you if you say "nerf Marauder/sentinel"... they totally ignore people that say such a thing, because those 2 AC's are their bread and butter/their babies. Everyone and their mothers play one. If they nerf it, then all those FOTM players will rage quit and BW loses a ton of subs.

 

that's the reality of the situation here.

 

I wish that the relic thing would be changed to: "when enrage is popped you gain XXX power" ... then we could pop enrage, charge, smash. But... meh...