proved another time your retardness. just because im currently not in a ranked team doesnt mean im not experienced with it. just because you play ranked wz (as lolrage) doesnt mean you are at an above average level. you just wrote all you need is the right spec and you can be terribad like me ) glad i wont ever achieve such things like one of the hundreds of ragenoobs wanking at their ratings. then your kind runs away when spotting a terrible vengeance player ) off to work now, dont bother to reply, sick of your cluelessness, guess you know what that means ..

yet you still had it talented? i know its a filler and to stop caps. there are rare situations where it can be useful tho due to being aoe and free

do not make up facts. who said im on a rated team? yes i have played about 120 rwzs, guildruns, noob geared pugs, pug with high rated guys etc. i just dont care about being highrated. even got invited to a 2.4k+ guild but refused to join as they wanted a tank (if someone builds reputation as veng, why noobs want him as rage or tank? ). dots and crit: reading others posts seems like im not the one losing these arguments. will continue posting as long as you continue spreading false information about specs you arent even experienced with. ps.: you still havent proven anything about your pvp uberness. wheres the proper tank and vengeance pvp gearing template? do your homework, kid

with inquisitor buff and dmg stim (those are missing from my ss) my melee dmg is 912-1074. pvp dmg multiplier is 24.48%. unbelievable 56dmg difference, i think your pvp dmg multiplier is lower? you cant compare rage and vengeance dmg skills that way. here is a bit more fair comparsion: -force scream: ours 9sec cd, yours 12sec? ok you have dark resonance, so the 33% longer cd and the +30%dmg (only on crits) makes it about even. (counting in the +15% dot dmg makes vengeance the winner, even with the +6% force dmg with ssm) -armor penetration: our targets have 4-20% armor penetration as sundering is in our basic rotation. and i think you (as rage guys) dont use sunder at all. shi-choos 20% makes it about equal, rage wins tho due to its perma and granted. -obliterate vs impale: 15sec cd vs 9sec. 1902-2113 weapon dmg vs 2616-2906 weapon dmg (+626 dmg as dot). if you see the numbers, do some maths, vengeance is the winner by miles. counting in cooldowns too, impale is about 2.5 timesbetter than obliterate. -crush vs shatter: 5*528dmg + 1403dmg, make it 4k total, 18sec cd. shatter 1478-1559dmg + 4*479dmg for a total of 3.5k, 9sec cd. counting in cooldowns, even if we lose the last tick (refreshing shatter on cd) its about 1.5 times better than crush. -smash: main attack for rage, hits for tons, bla bla we all know it. hits like toothpicks for vengeance, but free so a good filler for us. 6 times better as rage. -ravage: 3sec channeling, not 4.5. used while the (talented) chargeroot lasts, vs casting enemies, melee guys etc. youll get all 3 hits in 90% of the time. cooldown unknown for veng. the comparsion is mostly dmg wise, obli is a gap closer too, and crush has a nice snare. if you play vengeance pvp, you must have all the dots (maybe this is the part you failed playing veng?). one by one they are almost laughable, but they are increasing your impale and fs dmg by 15-20%. when your dots are on the target it takes dmg when you got cced. all 3 dots rolling + ravage is bursty. sure healers can cleanse the dots. like you can get knocked back any time. take it as they arent healing while cleansing. those dots will get reapplied anyway in the next couple of seconds. -pooled hatred: the skill for mass pvp. no cd. team vs team situation. you get focused and spamhealed. you get the stacks in no time, you profit. repeat. you think its overrated, im not sure .

it doesnt matter, really. i had champion gear, full bm, and full wh now. there were times i had 30% crit but it wasnt as viable as with high pwr. even with 30% critrate you can get unlucky and not critting in a whole fight. your dmg really sucks in that case. sure you can crit 3-4 times in a row but those numbers arent that impressive. lowering your crit to gain more base dmg means you reducing an rng. its the same im happy about the new pvp relics: sure i could crit over 8k as veng in soresu with the on use versions, but on cooldown you had nothing. dmg stats on the new ones also reducing the chance to be a cooldown-hero (like marauders )

another joke? full augmented wh gear modded for high str/pwr is bad, right. when you aim for 35% unbuffed crit just to get 5/5 vici throw/fs crits instead 4/5, you are gimping your damage output as you lose too much power. now im gonna pull numbers out of my *** just to show an example even you can understand (still have doubts tho): high crit low dmg random attack 1000dmg noncrit, 1750dmg crit high dmg low crit random attack 1500dmg noncrit , 2625dmg crit see the difference? my tanking set is perfect thanks. sure i need some more rwz comms to finish it, the only difference to your tankgod ladispute will be the lack of pve armorings in belt/bracers, guess its the end of the world. to your buddie posting above: replace tank enhancements with what? dps enhancements with even lower endurance? the only thing i can do is to get rid of some tankstats to gain more endurance, thats already planned, explained and documented few posts above. vengeance is still a viable spec in the hands of a good player. quote some of my untrue lies, id like to see them. also post some screenies to prove vengeance is bad, having no survivability, or being a low dmg spec which is useless to kill anyone. i play this spec from mid december, pvpd to rank97 with it and clearly mastered it. just because you fail with it, doesnt mean everyone does. just because few hundred years ago the clueless crowd thought the earth is flat, doesnt mean they were right. you clearly dont have enough experience with vengeance spec, stop spreading false informations about it. also im trying to fell to your level, so pretty please post screenshots of your brutally awesome ragesmasher juggers and their impossible to get pvp achievements (sure it wont mean ****, i know how it goes, any random noob can get spot with the preferred spec even into the highest rated teams). post links about the perfect pvp tankgear and pvp vengeance optimized gear from askmrrobot (id like to see those numbers ) so at least you can try giving constructive criticism instead this "**** im a ragenoob im best in pvp vengeance need crit, your gear is terrible, you cant even kill npcs at dromund kaas" bs.

dont ever post about vengeance juggers please. we have autocrit talents too. getting 30% crit means our noncrit dmg hits like wet noodle, thats not good. stacking pwr/str means even not critting our dmg is high, with crits its insane. if i want burst, i go for rage. if i want constant high dmg, i stick with the low-crit vengeance. defensive stats. you bloody fkin idiot, they are on the gear already, you cant get them disappear just cuz you dont like them. if you want expertise gear with high endurance, youll have tank stats. go get some experience, then try to convience a veteran

you really failed to not sound like an ******e. so whats a special accomplishment for you, if 2.5k in wow isnt? few posts above aj's 2k was the law.... moddable belt and bracers? i dont pve to get high-end mods and also prefer highest possible expertise. tank stats on tankgear? omg i should better write to bioware that i need endurance on pvp tankgear instead the def-shield-absorb bs. believe it or not, war leader gear is full with tanking stats. crit for vengeance? maybe for pve, dont know, i only pvp. you lose to much dmg if you go crit, we dont need it. also i dont think i have to prove anyithing to player like you. as i said you are experienced, top player, unbeatable in the whole sw universe, go figure it out how viable vengeance is. ofc if you just a random medicore player with below average skills but above average ego, youll find it crap. a cup of l2p would help in that case ) edit: ladispute has even worse defensive stats. why the 40% shield chance when his shield only absorbs 27%? my stats are with vengeance spec, no bonus def from immortal tree. after finishing the optimisation (as i mentioned need a few more pieces) my endurance will go up and will lose tank stats. keeping the highest possible expertise not only a minimal upgrade to my survivability, but also helps dpsing in my tankgear if needed. you not only sound like an ******e, but being clueless, arrogant and probably under the age to be able to see the whole picture. i talk from experience, you seem like talk from experiences of forum heros. at least you are one funny little kid

note the hotbar, have shatter - full veng tank set http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/2854/screenshot2012082119392.jpg vindicator set http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/2739/screenshot2012082119402.jpg switching between the 2 sets takes less than 10sec ooc or just do it while takin the speeder/running back after a death. 2in1 warrior ftw search my name on battle.net, youll find some of my wow achies there (wrothag - bloodscalp eu, comeback 2nd warrior). so whos talking bs? you have uber gear and insane skills. go give that vengeance a go. if you fail hard with it, maybe its not the specs fault...

i only have 4 points in immortal, hybrids dont have the +15% from enraged def. nor the +4% from the same talent (full immortals -not the hybrids- has a +4% for elemental/internal tho) another proof of your cluelessness, my gear is full augmented + optimized wh vindicator and a set of full augmented (need 3 more enhancement for full optimisation) wh war leader combined with a few high-endurance bm pieces. (oh and first time i got to the worth-nothing 2k was in S1.... go look up my hero title too if you really want proof of my experience in ranked games) you RAGE too much, chill a bit sure i only have a bit less than 120 ranked games played due to the facts a)my gear is full, b)ratings are for the kids, c)i wont roll rage/hybrids just because some clueless guys says so d)i dont even have time to play at the evenings/nights. these games also include matches with 2k+ players or even against 2k+ teams. bit off topic, but getting vanilla rank14, winning arena tournaments in classic, getting 2.2k+ in the first two seasons without even caring, playing warzones and sieges in AoC as a member of the server's best pvp guild, then 2.5k in wow rbg also backs up my knowledge to be able to decide what is good for a ranked/rated team and whats not. have a good day

you clearly have no clue 2 - is more durable than almost anything else. (just a few bonus compared to rage: basic +4% dmg reduction. +20% with unstoppable. +15% with enraged defense for 10sec every 45sec). also dont forget, when need the tankyness, a smart venge guy is in def gear. 24k+ health with 1250exp war leader gear combined with the bonuses mentioned above... yes its more durable than a sorc, thats right ) 3 - thats simple not true. they cant kite with unstoppable up, and we have slows and ccs. they are one of the most squishy heavy armored guys, playing smart the pyro cant win (ofc you dont have to be smart, just use your spells). 4 - huttball. a tank geared vengeance juggernaut is more then enough to fill the role as a ballhandler. when the other team has the ball, as vengeance you are less useless than a hybrid as you have noticable dmg output 5 - cant kill target? sure we can. some of them even easier for us than for rage. killing healers isnt for us, thats all. (annoying them, keeping them busy, forcing them to selfheal only etc is ok tho) 6 - as i said, you have absolutely no clue about us

facts: vengeance is viable for rateds its one of the most unkillable specs in the game 1v1 only marauders and hybrid sins considered as a threat (yes, pyropts fear us) sure we cant burst down healers fast enough, there are other scenarios where we shine ragenoobs will never outdps us singletarget we have enough rage even in soresu while rage guys spam forums how awesome they are, we are laughing over their dead bodies ingame the funfactor of playing a vengeance jugg is insane edit: forgot one important thing. to get the most out of the spec, you need 2 sets of gear, both vindicator and war leader

vengeance beast reporting in, stick with it, its the manly spec for us, immortal is for girls and rage is for the kiddies

ravage: yes you need to time it. after charge with stagger, or when your enemy casting, or you fight a melee. youll get all 3 hits in if used well shatter: need sunder stacks to use it. we have a ranged sunder (sundering throw) and spamming sundering assult for the maximal dmg output (it also makes soresu 100% usable) gearing for vengeance: yes you need more accuracy (+3% in vengeance tree already) but needing crit for a pvp veng jugg is wrong. stacking str/power is the best way for vengeance juggernauts too. vengeance and huttball: im usually in tankgear when playing huttball, 24k+ health along with 1248exp. thanks to unstoppables dmg reduction, the 45sec enraged defense buffed with additional 15% dmg reduction while active, also the +4% perma dmg reduction makes us a real tank. with higher dmg output than immortals. when the enemy has the ball i dont even have to put on my vindicator gear, just switch to shien, maybe pop dps stim instead the fortitude one then im rdy to nuke their ballhandler. you can argue about how awesome rage juggs are, vengeance still has its place in pvp, be it rated or normal. ps.: i eat ragers for breakfast )

rage: + burst, 2*charges, good snare, high aoe dmg (more dmg done on scoreboard lol) vengeance: + sustained dmg, more survivability than rage, more singletarget dmg, UNSTOPPABLE edit: also dont listen to the ragenoobs above, interrupting your ravage? ccing you (with unstoppable)? i know im bad as rage, but can do same amount of singletarget dmg as veng as i do as rage with the 6.5k aoe smashes.... choose what fits your playstyle, both specs has up- and downsides