Powertech Pyrotech deserve the HUGE nerf

[ShadowOfVey]

The real problem with DPS PTs is exactly how you go about nerfing them.

 

I think the damage being so high (mainly due to the fact that elemental damage and armor ignoring railshots are going around) is perhaps a bit much. However just the same, they don't have anything else going for them.

 

Lets say one day a patch came out and instead of those attacks doing elemental damage it was energy, and lets say railshot didn't ignore armor or ignored a lot less of it.

 

DPS powertechs would then shift spectrums far too much. Instead of being very dangerous, they'd immediately become GARBAGE. The attack values on their powerful attacks really aren't that high, it's just the elemental and/or armor ignore that makes it hurt. They'd just flat out due a fair bit less damage and in exchange would...well not do much really. The high damage is the only reason for the spec currently, they have very little in the way of utility elsewhere compared to other classes.

 

So it can't just be a flat out nerf. They would need to get one (probably several) things in return in order to be viable.

[anwg]

Only 1 AC has almost no chance beating a PT: merc/commando.

[Ewgal]

The nerf powertech needs:

1. railshot should not ignore armor, for instant cast skill 30 meters range completly ignore armor is too OP.

 

Agreed. Railshot should be toned down.

 

2. Something should be done with flame burst. It is way too much having 10 meter range instant cast ability with no CD which do high damage, place dot, slow target and ignore armore at the same time. It shoul be placed on 10 seconds CD or have 1.5 sec cast time and it should not ignore armor.

 

Agreed. I think a 10 second cool-down would make it more reasonable or make it channeled.

[Dencre]

They are fine. You are just clueless.

[Underpowered]

The proper way to nerf them is to reduce their effectiveness in situations where players most commonly claim they are overwhelmingly powerful, and provide a lesser buff to where players most commonly claim they are weakest to placate them. These two situations are at short range (4-10m) and at long range (15-30m+) respectively. Not that I think that they need a buff to long range capability since they have three excellent skills (Assault Plastique/Thermal Detonator, Incendiary Missile/Incendary Round, followed by Rail Shot/HIB on burning target) and their auto attack to use while they close in on their targets.

 

I propose the following:

 

• Ionized Ignition/Bursting Flame now increases the chance of Ion Pulse/Flame Burst to trigger Plasma Cell/Combustible Gas Cylinder by 15/30/45%, down from 33/66/100%.
  
• Superheated Plasma/Superheated Gas now increases the chance of Plasma Cell/Combustible Gas Cylinder to trigger by 5/10/15%. This effect now applies to Ion Pulse/Flame Burst in addition to Hammer Shot/Rapid Shots if it did not do so already. The damage bonus remains the same.
  
• Ion Pulse/Flame Burst is now a Physical effect.
  

 

Net effect of changes:

• The ability for Assault VGs/Pyro BHs to keep their targets infinitely snared within their effective kill radius (4-10m) is reduced versus all classes. The new chance of Ion Pulse/Flame Burst to trigger Plasma Cell/CGC is 45+15=60%, down from100%. If it doesn't apply the first time, do it again. The odds of this effect not triggering twice in a row is extremely low (16%).
  
• The long-range effectiveness of Assault VGs/Pyro BHs has been increased. Hammer Shot/Rapid Shot attacks now have a 25% chance to trigger PC/CGC, up from 16%. If VGs/BHs really want to continue to whine about their supposedly lack of long-rage effectivness, I would be willing to provide an additional 5% trigger chance for PC/CGC on Hammer Shot/Rail Shot.
  
• Healing Sages can now cleanse the PC/CGC dot so that they are no longer an inexplicable free kill.
  

 

Discuss.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Underpowered

[Rickwala]

Please remember that burst is the only thing the class has.

 

Btw, OP's suggestion wouldn't only kill this class in PvP, it would also destroy the totally unrelated PvE tanking AND DPS AS WELL as the tactics middle tree, which is not played much as it is.

 

Powertech / Vanguard is already a bare-bones class that has little else than burst (in PvP), you do not nerf abilities of a class like this without giving back significantly more other mechanics.

 

Tell that to arsenal mercs please.

[Ewgal]

The proper way to nerf them is to reduce their effectiveness in situations where players most commonly claim they are overwhelmingly powerful, and provide a lesser buff to where players most commonly claim they are weakest to placate them. These two situations are at short range (4-10m) and at long range (15-30m+) respectively. Not that I think that they need a buff to long range capability since they have three excellent skills (Assault Plastique/Thermal Detonator, Incendiary Missile/Incendary Round, followed by Rail Shot/HIB on burning target) and their auto attack to use while they close in on their targets.

 

I propose the following:

 

• Ionized Ignition/Bursting Flame now increases the chance of Ion Pulse/Flame Burst to trigger Plasma Cell/Combustible Gas Cylinder by 15/30/45%, down from 33/66/100%.
  
• Superheated Plasma/Superheated Gas now increases the chance of Plasma Cell/Combustible Gas Cylinder to trigger by 5/10/15%. This effect now applies to Ion Pulse/Flame Burst in addition to Hammer Shot/Rapid Shots if it did not do so already. The damage bonus remains the same.
  
• Ion Pulse/Flame Burst is now a Physical effect.
  

 

Net effect of changes:

• The ability for Assault VGs/Pyro BHs to keep their targets infinitely snared within their effective kill radius (4-10m) is reduced versus all classes. The new chance of Ion Pulse/Flame Burst to trigger Plasma Cell/CGC is 45+15=60%, down from100%. If it doesn't apply the first time, do it again. The odds of this effect not triggering twice in a row is extremely low (16%).
  
• The long-range effectiveness of Assault VGs/Pyro BHs has been increased. Hammer Shot/Rapid Shot attacks now have a 25% chance to trigger PC/CGC, up from 16%. If VGs/BHs really want to continue to whine about their supposedly lack of long-rage effectivness, I would be willing to provide an additional 5% trigger chance for PC/CGC on Hammer Shot/Rail Shot.
  
• Healing Sages can now cleanse the PC/CGC dot so that they are no longer an inexplicable free kill.
  

 

Discuss.

 

I think can simply make Powertech less overpowered by making some of the abilities channeled or with a cast time rather than instant. That won't hurt them in PvE, but would make them easier to counter in PvP.

[Underpowered]

I think can simply make Powertech less overpowered by making some of the abilities channeled or with a cast time rather than instant. That won't hurt them in PvE, but would make them easier to counter in PvP.

 

I also agree in an ideal world that this is an excellent approach - the simple fact is Pyros have no interrupt counter in their rotation. However this would require a significant reworking to at least one of Flame Burst, Thermal Detonator, Incendiary Missile or Rail Shot, none of which stand out as obvious easy choices (maybe Rail Shot). It's not going to happen - Bioware would rather nerf by numbers than by reworking.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Underpowered

[ComeAndSee]

Walked up to a fire 14k HP recruit gear Pyro Pyrotech yesterday on my 22k WH geared Shield Vanguard.

 

The dude did 25% of my HP in the opening 2 seconds of the fight and got me down to 20% hp before I killed him. *** is with that?

Edited May 28, 2012 by ComeAndSee

[SinnedQWERTY]

I won't comment on balance issues itself because I feel as though I am no longer in a position to, but I would like to ask a question.

 

Aren't powertechs really easy for team to burst down in a wz?

 

Indeed unlike mar/sents PT's don't really have a lot of options once they get focused or an escape for that matter.

[Ewgal]

I also agree in an ideal world that this is an excellent approach - the simple fact is Pyros have no interrupt counter in their rotation. However this would require a significant reworking to at least one of Flame Burst, Thermal Detonator, Incendiary Missile or Rail Shot, none of which stand out as obvious easy choices (maybe Rail Shot). It's not going to happen - Bioware would rather nerf by numbers than by reworking.

 

At the moment your only option against a Pyro is to try to cc, and in PvP if resolve is up then out of luck or if your cooldowns on cc aren't available out of luck again. Certainly flame burst could be made to be channeled or on a cast time, that would make them less op in PvP quite easily.

[LiveandDieinLA]

There is always going to be a class that has the highest potential damage output.

 

I think its a good thing that it is PY/Van atm, since they have no stealth, no gap closer (in the spec in question), no pushback, and mediocre defense.

[laiboch]

Ehhh Never really thought that a heavy armor class should do the same damage as a Medium or light armor class. But that's just an opinion.

 

Heavy armor should have higher survivability, but do less net damage. The problem with Power Tech and Merc is their lack of defensive abilities. So lowering their damage with out giving them some better defensive abilities is a mistake as has been seen in the case of the Merc. In the case of the Power Tech they should lower their damage, but give them better defensive cool downs to compensate. Give their bubble a better cool down and have it obsorb more damage.. Perhaps make their small self HOT have a longer duration and heal for more.

 

What I really dislike is people calling for a nerf on damage, but then not suggesting things that can be given to a class to compensate for that lost damage. In any class you have to look at changes as quid pro quo if you take something away something must be given back or "This for That"

 

I think Power Tech's should be hard to kill. They should have really solid Defensive cool downs and be able to put out reasonable damage. Just like any other tank class.

 

Light armor classes should always be the top damage dealers, but be squishy.

Medium should always be second in damage with a bit higher survivability than light

Heavy should always be last in damage, but have the highest survivability.

 

By balancing damage in % decreases from group to group and increasing survivability by % you create balance and with that you create rolls and better flow to group mechanics.

[Fdzzaigl]

Walked up to a fire 14k HP recruit gear Pyro Pyrotech yesterday on my 22k WH geared Shield Vanguard.

 

The dude did 25% of my HP in the opening 2 seconds of the fight and got me down to 20% hp before I killed him. *** is with that?

 

Shield Vanguard is pointless mate, I played one for ages before patch and had a go for it after patch as well when my team-mates asked for it, or when I was unwilling to respec from PvE tank.

And it simply sucks, it sucked back then and it sucks even harder now.

 

I'm not saying shield lacks usefulness for your team, but it sucks on a personal level.

 

All your defences, except for your cooldowns, are pointless against all the attacks, except for HiB, an assault puts out, (and not only an assault, also many other classes), that health won't save you either, it never does with the current burst.

 

It's killing before you are killed that will save you.

 

Tell that to arsenal mercs please.

 

Topic ain't about arsenal mercs, they aren't in a good position, I agree.

And their spec is still as boring as ever from the looks of it.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Fdzzaigl

[mamosh]

The nerf powertech needs:

1. railshot should not ignore armor, for instant cast skill 30 meters range completly ignore armor is too OP.

 

Agreed. Railshot should be toned down.

 

2. Something should be done with flame burst. It is way too much having 10 meter range instant cast ability with no CD which do high damage, place dot, slow target and ignore armore at the same time. It shoul be placed on 10 seconds CD or have 1.5 sec cast time and it should not ignore armor.

 

Agreed. I think a 10 second cool-down would make it more reasonable or make it channeled.

 

so you pretty much asking for them to sit there for 10 secs (time it takes to kill a pt) so you can beat on them freely? how about using your cds? almost all cds reduce/absorb rail dmg since its weapon dmg, all time mara respond cleanse our dot we will overheat

 

the ideas here with a casting/channeling melee class is just a joke rofl you guys even been in melee range and try to cast something

Edited May 28, 2012 by mamosh

[Sporticus]

They are fine. You are just clueless.

 

This.

[NoTomorrow]

No pyrotech nerf is warranted as long as

1. We have ridiculously op tank asassins in dps gear.

2. Hybrid sage healers like these exist http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#600RRrRMdMzZforMbMr.1

 

Oh, and railshot is a RANGED ATTACK, it is subject to ACCURACY vs. DEFENSE rolls.

One simple defense relic, or any other ranged deflection ability can mske railshot miss.

Edited May 28, 2012 by NoTomorrow

[SinnedQWERTY]

The real problem with DPS PTs is exactly how you go about nerfing them.

 

I think the damage being so high (mainly due to the fact that elemental damage and armor ignoring railshots are going around) is perhaps a bit much. However just the same, they don't have anything else going for them.

 

Lets say one day a patch came out and instead of those attacks doing elemental damage it was energy, and lets say railshot didn't ignore armor or ignored a lot less of it.

 

DPS powertechs would then shift spectrums far too much. Instead of being very dangerous, they'd immediately become GARBAGE. The attack values on their powerful attacks really aren't that high, it's just the elemental and/or armor ignore that makes it hurt. They'd just flat out due a fair bit less damage and in exchange would...well not do much really. The high damage is the only reason for the spec currently, they have very little in the way of utility elsewhere compared to other classes.

 

So it can't just be a flat out nerf. They would need to get one (probably several) things in return in order to be viable.

 

Good points, it's also not like they jump in from afar, they can grapple someone every 45secs, but often this is being saved for healers/cappers. That means this person is in a world of pain but that is it. For the rest they come running in and... thats when they should be getting focused. The latter isn't happening.

 

Note: pt is is just one of my many alts, I don't see the trouble myself. Pyro's are really squishy guys...

[DarthLightSide]

Not sure why people say PT's are squishy....they wear Heavy Armor and I have seen group of 4 people all BM or higher bash on 1 and he will still usually kill 2 or 3 before he goes down.

 

There's a PT on my server who can like 2 or 3 shot me and I have 1300+ expertise...he does this consistently.

 

I only wish I had half the damage, utility, mobility of a PT (I play a Gunslinger)

 

Maybe they don't need a nerf....but in that case, Gunslinger/Sniper need an insane buff to balance them out.

[Twor]

Not sure why people say PT's are squishy....they wear Heavy Armor and I have seen group of 4 people all BM or higher bash on 1 and he will still usually kill 2 or 3 before he goes down.

 

There's a PT on my server who can like 2 or 3 shot me and I have 1300+ expertise...he does this consistently.

 

I only wish I had half the damage, utility, mobility of a PT (I play a Gunslinger)

 

Maybe they don't need a nerf....but in that case, Gunslinger/Sniper need an insane buff to balance them out.

 

Those 4 people should stop using autoattacks only.

And Pyros can 3 shot every 2-3 minutes with critcd/adrenal and relic. The same as you can when you pop them all.

[mamosh]

Not sure why people say PT's are squishy....they wear Heavy Armor and I have seen group of 4 people all BM or higher bash on 1 and he will still usually kill 2 or 3 before he goes down.

 

There's a PT on my server who can like 2 or 3 shot me and I have 1300+ expertise...he does this consistently.

 

I only wish I had half the damage, utility, mobility of a PT (I play a Gunslinger)

 

Maybe they don't need a nerf....but in that case, Gunslinger/Sniper need an insane buff to balance them out.

 

what utility exactly you talking about? i melt pyros constantly on my slinger i call bad slinger

[lpsmash]

There are a few problems with powertechs that makes them very hard to counter.

 

1. Everything they do is instant cast (except for Unload/DFA).

 

2. They have two stuns. One of them is even an AOE.

 

3. They can be ranged against melee and effectively kite and they can be melee against ranged and can't be kited because they have a lot of 30m abilities. So, range is never really an issue with them. If they really need you in melee, they can grapple you (unless you're in cover).

 

4. Most of their attacks ignore armor, whether it's elemental damage or plain ignore armor on rail shot.

 

5. You can't defend against tech attacks. Normal dodge, deflect, cover don't work. There is only one class who can resist tech (shadow/sin). That, I think, is something that needs to be looked at. While we're (excluding operatives) dealing with dodge/parry/cover/deflect, they don't have to. This also makes defensive cooldowns much more irrelevent, except when you get healed (which doesn't always happen) - you may take 25% less damage with saber ward, but you still can't avoid most of their damage. P.S. It is legitimate to save one of your stun for railshot. If it kills your opponent, it is legitimate.

 

Arguably, there are a few things to counter them, but I question myself as to how effective those methods are.

 

1. "Ganking up on them" K, how is it any different than any other class? Gank up on a sorcerer, he dies too. I don't know how anyone can think it's reasonable that a class is not that good because you can 3v1 them.

 

2. "Cleanse their DoTs" Yeah, it looks effective enough, but only in the long run (aka you are being healed), because the heat will be too damn high. They can take you down in a matter of seconds, and with two stuns. While you're busy cleansing yourself, they still do damage. Contrary to their beliefs, not 90% of their damage comes from DoTs.

Edited May 28, 2012 by lpsmash

[Bbizzle]

Light armor classes should always be the top damage dealers, but be squishy.

Medium should always be second in damage with a bit higher survivability than light

Heavy should always be last in damage, but have the highest survivability.

 

But the issue is, most medium armor classes are surviving better than anyone in the game right now. And hell even sorcs in light armor have more escape tools, on a powertech or vanguard if you are in trouble you basically have to get healed or sit there and take it in the face.

 

Another thing to consider is that heavy armor doesnt = tank. Heavy armor in DPS ammo type nets me roughly 6% damage reduction more than medium armor wearer, except I dont get an asborb shield like snipers, or a parry all skill, or a knock back, or a root, or a sprint, or CC immunity, or saber ward, or combat cloak, or cloak of pain. The list can go on. We get our base class bubble -25% incomming damage for 12 seconds on a 2 minute cooldown and a tiny hot thats on a 3 minute CD. Thats it.

 

If people think were running around tanking people in this spec you've clearly not played a multitude of classes into high level.

 

The only time we'd have a noticable armor increase is in the defense ammo cell, but if we run that, there is no plasma cell dot. So our damage does fall off considerably. And no snare off the dot. And no high impact bolt/railshot reset proccing.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Bbizzle

[Gidoru]

troll post. Rail shot ignores 60 % armor if speced.

 

your suggestions made me laugh though thx.

 

Troll post, 60% from one talent, 30% from another. Funny how you dont even know your own class.

 

Powertech damage is broken. I know you want to think you're just the greatest player in the world but you arent, your class does stupid amounts of damage period.

 

As for the class being squishy, thats laughably inaccurate. Powertechs have the most HP of any non tank class and have heavy armor. Not to mention that energy shield easily lasts the duration of a fight because any non brain dead powertech can drop someone in 10 seconds.

 

I guess your class is "squishy" because you cant tank 3+ players like you seem to think you should.

Edited May 28, 2012 by Gidoru

[Siphorus]

As for the class being squishy, thats laughably inaccurate. Powertechs have the most HP of any non tank class and have heavy armor. Not to mention that energy shield easily lasts the duration of a fight because any non brain dead powertech can drop someone in 10 seconds.

Heavy armor is just for show in this game. Pyro's are squishy but also cannot be if cd's are up. Its that one fight every 3mins that people are complaining about when every cd is up.