GRINnBARRETT Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 TBH I only read the title of this thread. But to the point: it won't matter b/c there is no LFG for hardmodes, only regular. source: http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/05/23/the-old-republics-daniel-erickson-talks-legacy-system-update-group-finder-and-adaptive-gear/ Which leaves leveling flashpoints as the only potential area of concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganrax Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Hold on. Isn't SWToR the easiest MMO on the market? Nothing to do at 50? Bored at 50. What do we need a gear gate for again? Those three questions have been floating around for quite some time, so what is it? Do we actually need a gear check? We don't NEED a gear gate, there ARE already gear gates on content so there needs to be a GEAR CHECK on the LFG Tool to account for that, otherwise you have uninformed people queuing for content that they are not geared enough for and causing problems. It should check the gear, bar people from queuing that don't meet the minimal requirements, and inform them what the minimum requirements are so that they can acquire that gear to queue for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallorik Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 (edited) Its called progression, you need this gear to do that content. Its the way this game and most mmos are set up. You can argue for or against that all you want, but argueing that a lfg tool should not have a gear check in a progression based mmo is just silly. Edited May 23, 2012 by Mallorik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganrax Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 (edited) I stopped reading on page 3 so it's possible that this has been brough up already but I'm interested in knowing how such a "gear check" would work. Hp check? Tier check? None of those are good. Hp check might be somewhat accurate for tanks but tier check is useless for all. Just to give you an example, a dps sorc can in 56 mods (columi/ champion) ding 20K HP in non-augmented gear. That sounds all fine and dandy until you look at his or her dps , all that HP simply means that the player isnt using the best mods for the task. To be able to hit 20K HP AND have good dps as a dps sorc you need a fully augmented outfit and 58 mods. So the point is that such a system would have to be really specific for it to be useful and I don't see that happening. I think the most effective way would be the way that Rift did it. They had different stat requirements depending on your class, the role you were queuing for, and the tier of the dungeon. It would look something like: You are a Warrior looking to queue for a Tier 1 Expert Dungeon as a DPS and the requirement would be 100 Strength, 80 Endurance, 50 Hit(this isn't accurate, just an example). If you met those requirements you could queue for that Dungeon, if you didn't you couldn't queue. That way you didn't run into the problem that WoW has where you see people just stacking gear that will increase their item level so they can queue instead of actually getting stats that are useful for the dungeon. That's my opinion of what would be the most effective way to gauge if someone is geared enough to run said flashpoint/operation. Edited May 24, 2012 by Ganrax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skidrowbro Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 We don't NEED a gear gate, there ARE already gear gates on content so there needs to be a GEAR CHECK on the LFG Tool to account for that, otherwise you have uninformed people queuing for content that they are not geared enough for and causing problems. It should check the gear, bar people from queuing that don't meet the minimal requirements, and inform them what the minimum requirements are so that they can acquire that gear to queue for it. That still doesn't answer my questions I posted. If this game is so easy as it's been stated all over these forums, is a gear check actually necessary? Common sense should tell players to not attempt to raid in greens but you know how it goes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganrax Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 That still doesn't answer my questions I posted. If this game is so easy as it's been stated all over these forums, is a gear check actually necessary? Common sense should tell players to not attempt to raid in greens but you know how it goes Just because it has gear requirements doesn't mean it is not easy. EV and KP are extremely easy in terms of mechanics but you still need gear to beat the enrage timers, survive the bosses, and keep the raid alive in Hard Mode/Nightmare Mode. If you have the gear and half a brain you can blow through the place, especially now because they fixed so many of the bugs which were the only real "difficult mechanic" with the operations. It's even easy to get the gear, you just have to follow the right path and not jump right into content you aren't geared for. Denova(aka Explosive Conflict) is a different story though. In terms of gear requirements Story Mode is not much different than Nightmare EV/KP but it's much more difficult in terms of mechanics. It is a step in the right direction and actually has more challenging mechanics which is why I really enjoy this operation. I would even go as far to say that EV and KP are bad for Denova because it is a night and day experience in terms of difficulty, the previous Tier of Operations does not prepare for you Denova at all like entry level raid content should. If this is a taste of things to come for their future operations in terms of difficulty I will be very happy with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganrax Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 TBH I only read the title of this thread. But to the point: it won't matter b/c there is no LFG for hardmodes, only regular. source: http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/05/23/the-old-republics-daniel-erickson-talks-legacy-system-update-group-finder-and-adaptive-gear/ Which leaves leveling flashpoints as the only potential area of concern. That question was only in regard to Operations which is understandable why they don't want people queuing for Hardmode Ops. I absolutely still see them having Hardmode Flashpoints in the tool though, otherwise the entire tool is a waste. Even without them though there are still gear requirements for Story mode Operations. Story Mode Denova is a Tier above Story Mode Eternity Vault and Story Mode Karraga's Palace so it requires more gear to complete it(and rewards better gear because of this). Because of this there still needs to be a gear check in place on the tool if anything to not confuse new players that may think just because it is Story Mode that it is still an entry level operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZudetGambeous Posted May 24, 2012 Author Share Posted May 24, 2012 That still doesn't answer my questions I posted. If this game is so easy as it's been stated all over these forums, is a gear check actually necessary? Common sense should tell players to not attempt to raid in greens but you know how it goes People think the game is easy because for the most part people who are complaining already have the best gear. But yes a gear check is absolutely nessesary. I don't have exact numbers on hand, but the standard enrage timer for 8-man ops bosses is 5 minutes. In Tier 1 ops (EV/KP) the bosses start at about 800k HP, this means that on average the 4 dps and 2 tanks need to output 500 dps. This is possible to do even with level 50 green gear if you are skilled. If all 10 of your fingers are broken and you are using your face to dps, you can still hit 500 dps if you have a fully modded orange set with daily mods. So for this situation the minimum requirement would be level 50 greens since a skilled group could theoretically clear the content with that gear and only that gear. Fast forward to Tier 2 ops. EC bosses have the same 5 minute enrage timer but now have about 2 million HP. In order to kill a Tier 2 boss then DPS + Tanks must output an average of about 1100 dps. Even if your entire team was controlled by perfectly synched computers who never missed a button, and used the perfect rotations, in green lvl 50 gear you would never even come close to 1100 dps. It's not theoretically possible. Therefore people in that gear should not be allowed to queue for EC. There is a player on my server who has decided that he doesn't need a head slot item. He does "just fine" without it he says. He will not equip one and will not listen to any amount of reason. He frequently forms ops groups only to wipe over and over and over. I don't want to group with someone who doesn't posses the gear necessary to complete the challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clintcasey Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 The standard aren't arbitrary and they are set by the developers. I really have no idea what you are talking about. Devona is physically impossible to clear if your tank is in Tionese gear. It doesn't matter how good of a player you are, you don't have enough health to survive, end of story, no discussion. Therefore if you are in Tionese gear you should not be allowed to queue for Devona. I'm not trying to exclude anyone that isn't already excluded. Certain gear is required to clear certain content, its not a mystery or some conspiracy elitist theory, its just how the game is designed. This is a gear based game, so not very surprisingly the content is gear gated. I cleared Hard Mode Denova with a pugged tank in War Hero gear... It was challenging though, the biggest issue was threat generation on the part of the pugged tank. I've got a couple of Lethality Snipers who put up big DPS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mokkh Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Instead of gear check being necessary, why not a completion check? (used to be called keying in EQ) i.e. if you completed the previous content of the raid progression line you should be on par to do the next step no matter what you are wearing. Prevents ops jumping and doesn't stoop to the condescension of a "gear check". (we don't want you we just want your gear...) Also, while gear helps out for ability to get "absolute minimum" performance it does not equal it. The player who is controlling the toon "wearing" the gear has to do that. In the end it's going to be unquantifiable for those players who may be in the nexus between what is considered the "absolute minimum" gearwise vs what they can actually do performance wise. I remember how gearscore (yes I know you're not talking about incorporating gearscore from the ridiculous color and font size in your OP) and the like inflated items from PvP that were horrid for use in PvE yet people would pass the so called "gear check" and flail when it counted. Players will always end up frustrated for a myriad of trivial (and sometimes substantial) reasons. If you have a lack of patience then do yourself a favor and just don't bother raiding or you'll end up like that onyxia guy. And I, for one, will laugh at you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siegedeluxe Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 (edited) This post http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=463667 is my response to this thread. Peace out! Edited May 24, 2012 by siegedeluxe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganrax Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 This post http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=463667 is my response to this thread. Peace out! That doesn't say anything about Hardmode Flashpoints and Denova is a Tier 2 Operation while Eternity Vault and Karraga's Palace are Tier 1 so it requires more gear than EV and KP do even on Story Mode. I get why they aren't having Hardmode Operations but not having Hardmode Flashpoints on the list will make the tool pretty much worthless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishdrunk Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 GOOD! I was clearing hard modes in quest gear a a week after early access....now all I see is spam about "Full Rakata Tank ONLY for HM BT" All you WoWKids started it, its hilariously pathetic. l2play Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkerMatter Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 (edited) A gear check is a stupid idea, Skill outweighs gear all day long. So if they put in gear check they need to put in a skill check, which they can't do so no to any type of gear check. Don't like that? Fine make some friends and group with them. Group finder tool is for PUG'S to find group, you wanna flaunt your epeen, do it with your friends, They are the only ones who care., actually they couldn't give a crap either. Or like the guy above me stated go play with your panda's in WoW Edited May 24, 2012 by DarkerMatter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BucMan Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 (edited) There is a huge disparity between gear check set by developers and gear check set by players. One is static, the other keeps creeping up with the latest updates. One is fine, if you have rating 126 gear you won't be able to do this raid, because there are other raids for you to do BEFORE you get to this one. The other starts at 126, then 130, then 134 a few months later....even though the instance hasn't been changed. You don't jump to tier 3 after a few heroic FPs..... (I am a huge supporter of just having fun and playing your way - but you have to have a happy medium) Edited May 24, 2012 by BucMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kriegheld Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 I am not for a gear check. Why would someone that wants a gear check system play with PUGs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anathar Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 (edited) the only people that require certain gearscores...yes its about gearscore regardless of how you want to spin it...are the elitists that want to get carried by people that have equal or better gear. (but funnily enough dont want others using them for the same thing) its a game..the instances are there to experience the storyline and perhaps get different gear appearences...you may wipe you may not...let it go and get over yourself and whether youre successful at playing a videogame or not. it always goes this way though.. people want to be grouped with others that have the same gear so the game will be easier for them to play..then they come to that games forums and complain the game is too easy for them because the devs gave them what they wanted.... then we get an expansion like Cataclysm (for wow) that nobody likes...then more people complain and the devs overcompensate and make certain things too easy and end up diluting the whole game and try to save it later with pandas(or in this game theyll probably be adding tauntaun mounts). what devs and hardcores dont seem to understand is the people that arent playing instances now wont be playing them later no matter what you do or dont do. its best to just focus on what the majority of your games playerbase is doing. which in this game the devs should be focusing on giving people more things to complain about since you cant seem to stop doing it. Edited May 24, 2012 by Anathar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZudetGambeous Posted May 24, 2012 Author Share Posted May 24, 2012 This post http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=463667 is my response to this thread. Peace out! HM LI and story mode EC are tier 2 content with gear requirements.... hilariously pathetic. Like your reading comprehension apparently.... I cleared Hard Mode Denova with a pugged tank in War Hero gear... It was challenging though, the biggest issue was threat generation on the part of the pugged tank. I've got a couple of Lethality Snipers who put up big DPS Congrats... you cleared a Tier 2 raid in the second highest level of tier 2 gear... that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. The only difference between Tier 2 PvE gear and tier 2 PvP gear is like -10 to the main stat and +150 expertise. The devs haven't quite mastered the whole tradeoff thing with the stats yet. Retry with your tank only wearing greens and let me know when you clear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratajack Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Now you're just trying to stir up trouble for the sake of it, and this is certainly not an argument against Bioware adding a check to the tool. If they feel the content can be completed with blue level gear (and some HM FPs certainly can) then that's fine. At that point people have to do what they've always had to do, make a personal decision on whether or not they want to continue with the group. If this feature is added onto the LFG Tool, then it should be done so as to be a benefit to both the person trying to queue, and to the potential group. That is, it would only restrict those who's gear is obviously below the requirements of the FP to the point that it would a poor experience for the player if they were allowed to join. I apologize if i seemed to be trying to stir up trouble. The person I responded to, said that you must have oragne gear fully nodded with daily purples in order to be geared for HM FP's. I disagree. I just want to know what he, and those who share his opinion, will do if BW sets the gear requirement lower than what he feels is needed. As many, including myself, have previously stated, it is not at all unusual for a playerin WOW to meet or exceed the minimum gear standards set by the developers in order to queue for an instance, but still find themselves kicked from the LFD group for not having the BIS gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skidrowbro Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 I apologize if i seemed to be trying to stir up trouble. The person I responded to, said that you must have oragne gear fully nodded with daily purples in order to be geared for HM FP's. I disagree. I just want to know what he, and those who share his opinion, will do if BW sets the gear requirement lower than what he feels is needed. As many, including myself, have previously stated, it is not at all unusual for a playerin WOW to meet or exceed the minimum gear standards set by the developers in order to queue for an instance, but still find themselves kicked from the LFD group for not having the BIS gear. You know the real answer, it's already happening in game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranid Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Outside of what Bioware has set for gear level for each instance there should not be any extra gear requirement. But for those that want to go the elitist route Bioware should include 2 check boxes for the LFG tool. 1. Elitist (People to don't want to help others and have fun, we will kick you if you are not geared to our standard.) 2. Casual (People who are willing to have fun with others and teach them if needed. How else are they going to learn unless the have a chance to experience being wiped out, whether it being gears on the low end. The point of doing these instances are to get better gear.) Bet you will find a lot of those so called elitist checking casual when they can't group very often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elkirin Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 While I am not a fan of gear gating, if it exists it exists. No amount of wishing it did not exist will change the truth. The only compromise I can see is a lfg check box for gear check yes or no, and that is not very workable either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bocek Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 There should be some sort minimul level of gear for each FP/Op set by Bioware. While this may not be fair for everyone, it is also not fair for the people who do q with a appropriate level of gear only to be stuck with someone in full greens who has no hope of contributing to downing a boss. As for kicking when you meet the minimum level of gear, well there are douche bags in all parts of life. Don't let them get you down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eszi Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 They should totally make a gear requirement, at least for hm fps and ops. Last thing we need is getting into a group full of green geared fresh 50s with 9k hp, so they can get you wiped on the first group of trash over and over again for an hour. We already have something like that in warzones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skidrowbro Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 Looks like rain is coming.... oh wait those are epeen tears, my bad. Like it or not they will have to add some form of gear check and yes the douches will go above the requirements even for normal FP's and Op's. Just remember, you do have an ignore list and it shouldn't let you group with them again. They could go even further and have a guild block so people do not get stuck with elitists at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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